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  • #76
    Would any of you care to explain to me the difference between slavery in the south as opposed to American companies using slave labor to produce clothes and electronics sold here in this country to people like you that are pro whitewashing history? What about all the chinese immigrants that walk around and see the monument to slavery that nearly every American citizen walks around talking to all day or the clothes you are wearing? Are they within their rights to break your phone and force you to stop wearing clothes?
    Rabble Rabble Rabble

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    • #77
      Frankly you are even more implicit if you shop at walmart or buy apple products, atleast back then it was a societal norm across much of the planet. You know where your cheap shit comes from and still consume it while simultaneously acting like a paragon of virtue
      Last edited by kthx; 10-11-2020, 03:16 PM.
      Rabble Rabble Rabble

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      • #78
        This conversation has devolved to the point where I don't want to participate but I do feel compelled to at least defend myself against the words kthx put into my mouth.

        The facts are inarguable: the monuments venerating Confederate soldiers and generals were put up with the intention of venerating Confederate soldiers and generals. They were not put up to remind us of the horrors of slavery. They were not put up as history lessons. They were put up to lionize and idolize people who abandoned the Union that was the USA and started a war to defend their rights to own slaves.

        I also want to reiterate the point that very few of these monuments were put up even during reconstruction. They were erected during Jim Crow and the civil rights era to send a very clear message: we may have lost the war but we still hold on to the values we fought for, namely that black people are lesser than white people. To argue otherwise is just factually inaccurate. They were basicallyu a scare tactic, a dog whistle, a way to say "know your place."

        Now, in terms of taking them down: you don't want to tear them down because they're part of history? Fine. Move them to some kind of museum or park where they can all be in one place and contextualized for what they actually are. Considering it would require southern states to develop a conscious over this, which is doubtful, I would accept simply moving them to a sculpture park without the context. The point is they do not belong in town squares or city centers or anywhere where they continue to serve their original goal: idolization of those who supported slavery.

        I don't want to hear about "erasing history." Those monuments weren't put up as part of a historical record, they were (for the most part) put up as a scare tactic.
        Vehicle> ?help Will the division's be decided as well today?
        Message has been sent to online moderators
        2:BLeeN> veh yes
        (Overstrand)>no
        2:Vehicle> (Overstrand)>no
        2:BLeeN> ok then no
        :Overstrand:2:Bleen> veh yes
        (Overstrand)>oh...then yes

        Comment


        • #79
          Meanwhile in Seattle.

          Anyways you don't know why the memorials were built so all that nonsense is an emotional response to a factual argument.


          Attached Files
          Rabble Rabble Rabble

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          • #80
            Yeah, devolved is being kind to you.
            Vehicle> ?help Will the division's be decided as well today?
            Message has been sent to online moderators
            2:BLeeN> veh yes
            (Overstrand)>no
            2:Vehicle> (Overstrand)>no
            2:BLeeN> ok then no
            :Overstrand:2:Bleen> veh yes
            (Overstrand)>oh...then yes

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Vehicle View Post
              Yeah, devolved is being kind to you.
              There's a reason you are the side note to this conversation.

              https://www.verywellmind.com/five-st...-grief-4175361

              Welcome to stage 2.

              Ironic choice of insult given the circumstances as well
              Last edited by kthx; 10-11-2020, 07:15 PM.
              Rabble Rabble Rabble

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by kthx View Post
                Would any of you care to explain to me the difference between slavery in the south as opposed to American companies using slave labor to produce clothes and electronics sold here in this country to people like you that are pro whitewashing history? What about all the chinese immigrants that walk around and see the monument to slavery that nearly every American citizen walks around talking to all day or the clothes you are wearing? Are they within their rights to break your phone and force you to stop wearing clothes?
                So are you arguing that you dislike capitalism for propagating wage slavery and agree with Marx and Engels that it should (and will) naturally die through class consciousness, or are you arguing that slavery is good? Your argument is based on one of those two things, so which one is it? Ironic that you just inadvertently defended socialism.

                Also, what Chinese immigrants do you think are coming over to America to see the 'products of slavery'? Do you believe they don't wear clothes or have phones? I'm confused on what you think China is economically? It's as capitalist as it comes in that regard, albeit heavily state-influenced. It's what economists call 'state capitalism'. They're only communist in the non-economic sense, which essentially means they're not communist at all by strict definition of what Marx/Engels wrote. Calling yourself communist doesn't make it so when the economy is capitalist.. Regardless, Chinese immigrants who come to America are rich as fuck. They more than likely have far more money than you or I, which means they have more clothes and electronics than 99% of Americans. China has the second most billionaires in the world, second only to America, FYI. Update your world view a bit, because it seems pretty outdated.

                Anyway, chattel slavery, which is what the American Southerners practiced, is even worse than just regular slavery. Chattel slavery makes them indentured for life with no possibility of raising oneself out of the situation, forces children of slaves to become slaves themselves, and dehumanizes the slave into being less than human. 3/5s of a human In the South to be exact. There are no factories in the world making iPhones or Nike shoes that practice chattel slavery, making your point a logical fallacy of false equivalency. If you're going to argue to defend something, stop being an emo and argue with logic. Facts don't care about your feelings snowflake.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by kthx View Post
                  Meanwhile in Seattle.

                  Anyways you don't know why the memorials were built so all that nonsense is an emotional response to a factual argument.
                  https://www.history.com/news/how-the...rate-monuments

                  “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

                  “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries.
                  The values these monuments stood for, he says, included a “glorification of the cause of the Civil War.”

                  In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson.

                  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...erate-statues/

                  The biggest spike in Confederate memorials came during the early 1900s, soon after Southern states enacted a number of sweeping laws to disenfranchise Black Americans and segregate society. During this period, more than 400 monuments were built as part of an organized strategy to reshape Civil War history. And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century — and as recently as 2011.

                  “Their goal, in all the work that they did, was to prepare future generations of white Southerners to respect and defend the principles of the Confederacy.” It wasn’t just Confederate monuments, either. They also rejected any school textbook that said slavery was the central cause of the Civil War; they praised the Ku Klux Klan and gave speeches that distorted the cruelty of American slavery and defended slave owners.



                  That last paragraph defines Southern education in a nutshell.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Exalt View Post

                    So are you arguing that you dislike capitalism for propagating wage slavery and agree with Marx and Engels that it should (and will) naturally die through class consciousness, or are you arguing that slavery is good? Your argument is based on one of those two things, so which one is it? Ironic that you just inadvertently defended socialism.

                    Also, what Chinese immigrants do you think are coming over to America to see the 'products of slavery'? Do you believe they don't wear clothes or have phones? I'm confused on what you think China is economically? It's as capitalist as it comes in that regard, albeit heavily state-influenced. It's what economists call 'state capitalism'. They're only communist in the non-economic sense, which essentially means they're not communist at all by strict definition of what Marx/Engels wrote. Calling yourself communist doesn't make it so when the economy is capitalist.. Regardless, Chinese immigrants who come to America are rich as fuck. They more than likely have far more money than you or I, which means they have more clothes and electronics than 99% of Americans. China has the second most billionaires in the world, second only to America, FYI. Update your world view a bit, because it seems pretty outdated.

                    Anyway, chattel slavery, which is what the American Southerners practiced, is even worse than just regular slavery. Chattel slavery makes them indentured for life with no possibility of raising oneself out of the situation, forces children of slaves to become slaves themselves, and dehumanizes the slave into being less than human. 3/5s of a human In the South to be exact. There are no factories in the world making iPhones or Nike shoes that practice chattel slavery, making your point a logical fallacy of false equivalency. If you're going to argue to defend something, stop being an emo and argue with logic. Facts don't care about your feelings snowflake.
                    Geez man, you also with the lame potshots Exalt? You can do better. Maybe you would accept that a large percentage of the black community are still slaves. Voting for a political party that offers handouts which you need to live, forcing you to vote to keep receiving payouts. Violence, drugs, and a culture designed to keep them ignorant is worse. Mental enslavement to create a vote farm.
                    Rabble Rabble Rabble

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Showing a timeline of events doesn't make vehicle or your opinions factual. You cant possibly know if events made people feel more like honoring past sacrifices. Like all the sudden flag sales go through the roof after 9/11. Correlation does not imply causation.
                      Rabble Rabble Rabble

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by kthx View Post
                        Showing a timeline of events doesn't make vehicle or your opinions factual. You cant possibly know if events made people feel more like honoring past sacrifices. Like all the sudden flag sales go through the roof after 9/11. Correlation does not imply causation.
                        "Historical evidence doesn't prove that anything is factual. You can't possibly use verified historical evidence to show people's motivations, such as honoring the Klu Klux Klan and for putting black people in their place during Jim Crow. I mean just take a look at Georgia's state flag. How could we possibly know what their motivations were all the way back in 1956 when they officially changed it to resemble the Confederate battle flag? It isn't like anyone is still living from 1956 right? It isn't like anyone from 1920 ever wrote anything down about the motivations of people putting up statues either. I'm pretty sure writing wasn't invented until 1980, when Ronald Reagan became president. I mean they only invented airplanes in 1908! The radio had just become mainstream! It's not like we have actual voice recordings of people from 1920. Oh wait, we do?... I mean... Uh.... Correlation does not imply causation! 9/11 was an inside job! The water turned the frogs gay!" - Kthx, October, 2020

                        Hey man, I'm gonna troll you when you make stupid arguments. You do it back whenever someone else says something dumb. Nobody is perfect.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by kthx View Post

                          Geez man, you also with the lame potshots Exalt? You can do better. Maybe you would accept that a large percentage of the black community are still slaves. Voting for a political party that offers handouts which you need to live, forcing you to vote to keep receiving payouts. Violence, drugs, and a culture designed to keep them ignorant is worse. Mental enslavement to create a vote farm.
                          https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/46...l-basic-income

                          UBI approval rates in America are rising even with Republicans.

                          https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...dicare-for-all

                          "Support among independent voters was steady at 68 percent. However, support among Republican voters declined 6 percentage points over the course of two years, from 52 percent support in 2018 to 46 percent in 2020."

                          Imagine, 46 percent of Republicans want Medicare for All. The majority of the country wants 'handouts'..The only demographic that actually opposes it, with 51% against (34% strongly oppose) are people aged 65+, who not-so-coincidentally already get Medicare. Go fucking figure.

                          Can't have handouts from our taxes though! No sir! How do we pay for it? We have the money tree to pay for the $6.4 trillion spent on Afghanistan and Iraq wars that lasted over two decades now and are still going. The money tree also let the Fed put in $2.3 trillion to boost the stock market for a grand total of 15 minutes before it crashed in March. $500 billion fell off the money tree and was thrown as a bailout to private banks that directly caused the financial crisis in 2008. In 2018, Amazon posted income of more than $11 billion while paying a grand total of $0.00 in taxes, while also receiving $137 million tax refund from the money tree. Money trees just don't exist for American citizens though. That's not how good ol 'Merica works. When we pay taxes, that money gets placed on a time machine and gets sent back to 1942 to fight Hitler and the Japs.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Exalt View Post

                            https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/46...l-basic-income

                            UBI approval rates in America are rising even with Republicans.

                            https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...dicare-for-all

                            "Support among independent voters was steady at 68 percent. However, support among Republican voters declined 6 percentage points over the course of two years, from 52 percent support in 2018 to 46 percent in 2020."

                            Imagine, 46 percent of Republicans want Medicare for All. The majority of the country wants 'handouts'..The only demographic that actually opposes it, with 51% against (34% strongly oppose) are people aged 65+, who not-so-coincidentally already get Medicare. Go fucking figure.

                            Can't have handouts from our taxes though! No sir! How do we pay for it? We have the money tree to pay for the $6.4 trillion spent on Afghanistan and Iraq wars that lasted over two decades now and are still going. The money tree also let the Fed put in $2.3 trillion to boost the stock market for a grand total of 15 minutes before it crashed in March. $500 billion fell off the money tree and was thrown as a bailout to private banks that directly caused the financial crisis in 2008. In 2018, Amazon posted income of more than $11 billion while paying a grand total of $0.00 in taxes, while also receiving $137 million tax refund from the money tree. Money trees just don't exist for American citizens though. That's not how good ol 'Merica works. When we pay taxes, that money gets placed on a time machine and gets sent back to 1942 to fight Hitler and the Japs.
                            UBI is a pipe dream until we have a post scarcity economy, I'm sure even you understand how silly it is. Not to mention what will be required to receive it. I wonder which government will be in office who decides what's naughty to say or think.
                            Rabble Rabble Rabble

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by kthx View Post

                              UBI is a pipe dream until we have a post scarcity economy, I'm sure even you understand how silly it is. Not to mention what will be required to receive it. I wonder which government will be in office who decides what's naughty to say or think.
                              Post scarcity doesn't exist. That's the pipe dream. Even if we had some magical Star Trek fabricators that could make whatever the fuck we wanted without any input, certain types of people would hoard them all and not allow them to be used by regular people. Human nature will always impede human progress. Even Star Trek had humans living in some dystopian, Fallout-type world and Spock's alien people had to come and save people from themselves. In reality, we will die out as a species before any aliens come save our asses. We aren't special in a universal scale.
                              '
                              Anyway, UBI is already being practiced in a couple countries, and someone like Andrew Yang could absolutely get elected. UBI was a fringe idea that nobody ever thought would be considered just last year, but then Yang came and changed that. I've seen plenty of republicans agree with it just as much as democrats when it comes from a technocrat. You never know. Boomers who vote specific ways are slowly going to die out, and once they're gone, the type of policies younger generations want will be very different. America only has real cultural changes once large older generations die out.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Exalt View Post

                                Post scarcity doesn't exist. That's the pipe dream. Even if we had some magical Star Trek fabricators that could make whatever the fuck we wanted without any input, certain types of people would hoard them all and not allow them to be used by regular people. Human nature will always impede human progress. Even Star Trek had humans living in some dystopian, Fallout-type world and Spock's alien people had to come and save people from themselves. In reality, we will die out as a species before any aliens come save our asses. We aren't special in a universal scale.
                                '
                                Anyway, UBI is already being practiced in a couple countries, and someone like Andrew Yang could absolutely get elected. UBI was a fringe idea that nobody ever thought would be considered just last year, but then Yang came and changed that. I've seen plenty of republicans agree with it just as much as democrats when it comes from a technocrat. You never know. Boomers who vote specific ways are slowly going to die out, and once they're gone, the type of policies younger generations want will be very different. America only has real cultural changes once large older generations die out.
                                Post scarcity only requires a power source innovation to be honest, it's hardly a pipe dream. Also you know that if UBI was passed you would also have to put a freeze on price increases for food and other items. How long would you freeze pricing until companies complained about losing revenue and stockholders? How long until the government got involved and bailed out the "failing" corporations and allowed price increases. It's like hyperinflation but with extra steps you know.

                                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income

                                How many of said experiments succeeded, I see a lot of programs ended quickly or only being for poor people which is welfare anyways. I realize it sounds good because it feels good or whatever you think but few people see the larger picture.
                                Rabble Rabble Rabble

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