Wtf is up with Intelligent Design?

[Epinephrine]

Basically the Christian religious right realized that the tactics of the anti-abortionist movement worked very well. By showing graphic pictures of one technique called D&C (or what the religious right calls 'partial birth abortion'), they managed to sway a lot of people away from supporting abortion to being at least not sure about it. It was a very good tactic as most Americans before Roe vs. Wade supported abortions anyway and even without the supreme court many legislatures would have legalized it anyway.

Either way, they realized that constant hounding with one or two 'sound bytes' of information and without ever really discussing the actual issues or having to include religion into the debate they were able to change the actual debate into their favour.

Meanwhile, creationists (which are probably anti-abortionist as well) had tried unsuccessfully for a long time to just include 'creationism' into science textbooks. There were some well-publicized cases in Kansas a few years ago where certain textbooks and educational standards were changed to include creationism but were eventually defeated and threatened with court cases because it included religion. Realizing that the anti-abortion movement managed to change the debate without invoking religion, some guy out there invented a new 'creationism' which didn't invoke religion either. Then they could find some quacks in high places who would support their ideas to give it more 'credibility' (one of which is George Bush in recent speeches). Then they could create a few sound bytes of information about science needs to 'include all theories' to be complete, and since intelligent design isn't necessarily religion it created enough 'buzz' to be accepted by a great number of people who know nothing of how science works or at least didn't care.

Either way intelligent design is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt by the religious right in the USA to try yet again and change the debate into their favour by imposing religious ideas onto the populace.

[Theif of Time]

*bump*
because of new developments.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051108/...olution_debate

Makes me start to lose my faith in humanity...
plus, get this...

In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.

?????????????????????????????

[DoTheFandango]

Kansas will be the first state to be evicted to from the Union.

[404 Not Found]

The ID theory is valid in its own realm, being that it is theory and not science.

Paraphrased from a Minister here in Pennsylvania, where alot of this crap is taking place. he notes that Science is a class whithin itself and not lectured in classes such as relegion. He went on to say that the two topics "Science" & "ID" of which he felt ID was part of relegion should be separated.

Have a class called relegion and have a class called science in the public schools. Reasoning for this was based upon the multi ethnic and various relegious beliefs we have in society.

Relegion as a class should educate all students with the backgrounds of each of the relegions we as humans believe in as an attempt to curb the lack of understanding of ones culture(s) and relegious backgrounds. This would be a great help in removing stereotypes and plain old ignorance.

Science is science, why in todays day and age are we trying to mix the two?

[Theif of Time]

The ID theory is valid in its own realm, being that it is theory and not science.

Someone tried to take the ID theory, dispense with the assumptions that goddidit, and make it into a valid theory. Basically on the assumption that there is more than one designer, and they compete.
Long, but nicely thought out. Makes more sense than the single-designer theory that ID is (The creator of this theory considers ID a subset of his, with only 1 designer.)
http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000509.html
Only problem is that this can't be used as a disguise for creationism. Big deal.

[Kolar]

ID is not science. The right has no idea what a theory is and they have total contempt for the structure of govnerment and for the realm of science.


These little town-ships shouldn't be setting precedent for other cities and towns to pass unconstitutional legislation, they should be looking at the freaking constitution and bill of rights not at what these little evangelical communities are doing.


There was a class like that at my old high school 404, world religion.

[Subjugation]

The ID theory is valid in its own realm, being that it is theory and not science.

Unless you are speaking purely from a literary perspective, a theory is a hypothesis that has been subjected to rigorous testing and has been unable to be falsified.

ID is not testable, therefore it is not falsifiable. It cannot even withstand the basic requirements of the scientific method. The creators of this bullshit have not been published in any peer reviewed literature. It's a complete joke that ID has gotten the kind of national support it has.

As far as Theiffy Time's link goes, I wonder what impact the National Academy of Sciences and National Science Teachers Association will have. Both of these groups banned the use of their copyrighted materials from being used to teach science in Kansas. This will undoubtedly have an impact on the education of the kids in KS. In fact, the University of California system has rejected the science standards used by a Christian school system. This has excluded their students from being able to qualify for the prestigious UC system. This Christian educational group sued and it's actually in the California Supreme Court, right now. I wonder if there will be similar action surrounding these new science standards?

[Theif of Time]

from all appearances science education copyright materials being banned will affect physics and chemistry aswell as biology, and the kids there will suffer in terms of science. Possibly leading to a re-election of the school board (or however its supposed to work with the school boards) which overturns the previous decision.

[Subjugation]

Shit, I only hope it is that easy.

Unfortunately, this has multi-state momentum, deep pockets, plenty of media coverage, and political favor in the culture wars. My guess is it's heading for the US Supreme Court within the next 5 years. And with the pending presidential nomination of the Supreme Court Justice? Who knows what direction this will end up.

[Sarien]

What do you expect really?
This is the holy grail for religious nuts, they're going to push for it with all their might. But it isn't even them to blame for it becoming such a goddamn "issue". What the fuck business is it of yours or mine unless you live in Kansas or somewhere else immediately affected. It's their state, they get to live how they want too, you know. Well except for the great awesome "limits to our freedom" that government believes we should have.

The whole thing is stupid and pointless to me, but it begs an even deeper question. One that I will never figure out if I live to be a million.

What is it about people that makes them unable to seperate what they want for themselves, and what's good for everybody, including people unlike themselves?

I mean seriously, is it that goddamn hard to understand? You want to and you want your kids to love the Jesus. Go for it. Why must you try to make it so everybody else has to love the Jesus the same way as you?

Abortion to you is wrong, great. Don't get one. Work to fund ways that abortion isn't the only other alternative to giving birth to a baby someone doesn't want.

You don't want to use drugs. GREAT. Don't. Why does everyone have to have fun the same way you do?

It's not about republicans, democrats, conservatives, or liberals. To buy into that you're just giving away all of the power the citizenry has. Nobody buys into those party ideals 100%, so why label yourself and create instant enemies? The only enemies that exist are the legions of people in government that want to trick you into blaming someone else for the bullshit THEY pull.

[404 Not Found]

Well shouldn't this be ok for the Mormon Bigomist in Utah then? As it is there belief and how they live, yet the law states they cannot have more than one wife?

Regardless if it is Kansas that only wants this...it is like T.O. trying to dictate to the team and not be part of the team. Not that the union would kick Kansas out, but will this not set an example of what other interest groups will want for there states? hmmm...kinda philisophical

I just was seeing if i could throw a T.O. segment into this

[Subjugation]

What do you expect really?
This is the holy grail for religious nuts, they're going to push for it with all their might. But it isn't even them to blame for it becoming such a goddamn "issue". What the fuck business is it of yours or mine unless you live in Kansas or somewhere else immediately affected. It's their state, they get to live how they want too, you know. Well except for the great awesome "limits to our freedom" that government believes we should have.

It's their state, sure. But they don't get to sink the educational futures of it's children. That's not negotiable. They don't get to teach the bible in a public school, even if it is their own state. And I'm actually suprised you think this is nobody's business but Kansas. Last I checked, the seperation of church and state was a federal law.

I mean seriously, is it that goddamn hard to understand? You want to and you want your kids to love the Jesus. Go for it. Why must you try to make it so everybody else has to love the Jesus the same way as you?

Because the bible says you have to spread the word and convert people in order to be a good christian. But yea, I totally agree. This is the reason why Christianity is the biggest threat to America right now. American Taliban.

[Sarien]

Well shouldn't this be ok for the Mormon Bigomist in Utah then? As it is there belief and how they live, yet the law states they cannot have more than one wife?

Yup. Sure should. If their taxpaying citizenry votes to allow and recognize such a thing by their state laws, then yup.

Regardless if it is Kansas that only wants this...it is like T.O. trying to dictate to the team and not be part of the team. Not that the union would kick Kansas out, but will this not set an example of what other interest groups will want for there states? hmmm...kinda philisophical

It's also their state, their school board, their schools, their children and their future. Oh yeah. Their tax money too.

It's their state, sure. But they don't get to sink the educational futures of it's children. That's not negotiable. They don't get to teach the bible in a public school, even if it is their own state. And I'm actually suprised you think this is nobody's business but Kansas. Last I checked, the seperation of church and state was a federal law.

Sure they do. This is the exact reason we have things like states and counties to begin with. Because "democracy" only really works on a small scale. People tend to forget that. If you have 100,000,000 people and 70,000,000 vote for a law, and the rest vote against it, you've just screwed 30,000,000 people. However in that nation of 100 million, if you break it up into states, and in one state there are 10,000,000 people, 7 million vote for, 3 million against, then only 3 million here didn't get their way. Whereas in other states with other varying populations and belief systems and culture things might work out differently.

Yes, seperation of church and state is a federal law. But this is a state schoolboard, not a federal one. This Intelligent Design garbage doesn't put forward feet for any specific religion. So if they want to add a sentence that says "Some people believe that crap is so complex it has to have some greater being behind it all." If the majority of their citizens want to add this, if they support it, then unless you live there and happen to be part of that chunk of citizenry, then you don't get a say. Look to your own government, and make the things you want for yourself and your children come true.

The freedom and willing diversity of the populace are supposed to be the things that make this country so great. It's just a shame that people on both sides of the field are too much of a bunch of pussies to ever let go of the reigns even an inch.

[Subjugation]

Yes, seperation of church and state is a federal law. But this is a state schoolboard, not a federal one.

Regardless, it's a public school. Federal laws still trump state schoolboards. If the schoolboards voted to ignore title ix, the board would get sued and those in violation would be forcibly removed from their elected positions.

[Kolar]

Sorry Sarien but what's popular isn't always right.

ID is creationism with a mask on. The fact that they attack specific parts of the theory of evolution shows that they do not believe in Creator-->evolution, they believe in a 10,000 year old universe and a direct inturpratation of the bible. No scientific evidence supports this and it is not possible to test the existance of god or miracles. ID is just a way to get that into the schools.

ID was not arived at using the sceientific method and is pseudoscience, nothing more.

As for the state thing, it appears that this case is being consider a land mark pridcent and a green light for any school board wanting to destory their science curriculum with this nonesense so it effects everyone. Federal law also overrides state law.