religion, part 8.782

[Facetious]

quite frankly, i dont understand christians or christianity, whatsoever. i find that the older i get, the more i distrust and am creeped out by the vast majority of religious people. with some religious people, like mormons, i find that they really get a lot out of their religion and help their community as a result. however, with christians, i dont really see that they behave with any higher standards than agnostics or athiests.

i would see much less of a problem with christians if the religious right hadnt corrupted our government to such a degree. what confuses me is that the poor farmers that are being run out of business in the midwest are somehow being duped by the church to vote entirely against their economic interests merely for the purpose of getting rid of abortion, not allowing gay marriage, and the other staple platforms of the new republican party. what is wrong with these people that taking away other peoples rights is more important than keeping their farms from being taken over by conagra?

some general questions:

if prayer works, why isnt there proof? one would think at some point there would be a study, saying that people that pray get their problems solved some percentage of the time whereas people that dont get their problems solved less. since, this isnt the case, and obviously prayer doesnt change anything in the real world, why pray?

why dont you think its better to do good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds, as opposed to doing good deeds so that you can have a good afterlife? in fact, why do you think the exact opposite?

since i dont think most people like folks that demand attention all the time and decide who they like and dont like based on how often they get complimented, why do you like this personality in your god?

[Bioture]

quite frankly, i dont understand christians or christianity, whatsoever. i find that the older i get, the more i distrust and am creeped out by the vast majority of religious people. with some religious people, like mormons, i find that they really get a lot out of their religion and help their community as a result. however, with christians, i dont really see that they behave with any higher standards than agnostics or athiests.

I understand your concern, and I have noticed the same thing as a Christian. As a religious person, I would say that about 75% of Christians out there are hypocritical, selfish, and intolerant. Or at least thats how they appear. I know athiests who "operate" on higher standards than Christians I know personally, the dynamics of this is debatable, but to be a Christian doesn't necessarily mean that we are more morally upright than any group of people, and we SHOULDN'T take it as such. Please realize that I say this knowing that to generalize a particular group of people (religious and non-religious) is a bad idea in a world of differences.

i would see much less of a problem with christians if the religious right hadnt corrupted our government to such a degree. what confuses me is that the poor farmers that are being run out of business in the midwest are somehow being duped by the church to vote entirely against their economic interests merely for the purpose of getting rid of abortion, not allowing gay marriage, and the other staple platforms of the new republican party. what is wrong with these people that taking away other peoples rights is more important than keeping their farms from being taken over by conagra?

In your worldview, religion and spirituality are practically the same thing - and they shouldn't be. The biggest concern here is that "religion" is bad, and I don't dispute that. I can't because religion is corrupt, and I know that it is a construct of MAN and not God.

some general questions:

if prayer works, why isnt there proof? one would think at some point there would be a study, saying that people that pray get their problems solved some percentage of the time whereas people that dont get their problems solved less. since, this isnt the case, and obviously prayer doesnt change anything in the real world, why pray?

There is proof. I'm proof. My fellowship is proof. People who outreach to strangers is proof. As for the quantifiable data that your looking for, I'm not sure I can give you an article that would make you not question the validity of the source. For example,

http://www.dhyansanjivani.org/prayer_healing.asp

relates prayer to health benefits. Do you buy it?

why dont you think its better to do good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds, as opposed to doing good deeds so that you can have a good afterlife? in fact, why do you think the exact opposite?

Where did you get this information? The afterlife, while being a pivotal point in faith, has nothing to do with humility and obedience. Put it this way, when you do a good deed (of any magnitude) who are you trying to please?

since i dont think most people like folks that demand attention all the time and decide who they like and dont like based on how often they get complimented, why do you like this personality in your god?

Please rephrase this question. Are you trying to say God will like you more if you compliment Him?

[Kolar]

...

Social control?

[Facetious]

In your worldview, religion and spirituality are practically the same thing - and they shouldn't be. The biggest concern here is that "religion" is bad, and I don't dispute that. I can't because religion is corrupt, and I know that it is a construct of MAN and not God.

well, i am not referring to spiritual people. i actually have a lot of respect for people that believe in god because of the way that they were raised (well, i think its because of the way that they were raised) but understand that the vast majority of churches are out to earn money, and therefore they dont attend church. i am solely talking about people that go to church on a regular basis.

There is proof. I'm proof. My fellowship is proof. People who outreach to strangers is proof. As for the quantifiable data that your looking for, I'm not sure I can give you an article that would make you not question the validity of the source.

well, im counter-proof. im pretty fucking sweet myself. prayer: 1, no prayer: 1. TIE!

For example,

http://www.dhyansanjivani.org/prayer_healing.asp

relates prayer to health benefits. Do you buy it?

call me closed-minded if you like but the kind of study i was looking for would not be published on a website with multiple references to black magic.

Where did you get this information? The afterlife, while being a pivotal point in faith, has nothing to do with humility and obedience. Put it this way, when you do a good deed (of any magnitude) who are you trying to please?

am i incorrect that from the perspective of most christians, you can live the most virtous life conceivable, but if you dont accept jesus as your lord and savior, you wont go to heaven?

Please rephrase this question. Are you trying to say God will like you more if you compliment Him?

essentially. the way i look at it is this. if i were god, i would get really really bored of all these people telling me how great i was and how i was their savior and awesome and stuff. i would like the same type of people i like now. to me, not really understanding the meaning behind "god is great, god is good" i take it literally. when you say that, youre complimenting him. what kind of loser needs that much re-enforcement in real life?

i dont think christians are evil, i think that the majority of them find that the church is the only place they can go to hear positive things. you want to cheat on your wife? tv says go for it. church says dont. i just wonder if there was a different organization, that provided the community and moral compass aspects of religion (which i think can be very good) if many borderline christians might prefer that to the creepy chanting and singing. in addition, as i said, it wouldnt be my business what other people do or think, but i am really frightened by the new ties that are being created with church and state. what do you think of those?

[Bioture]

well, i am not referring to spiritual people. i actually have a lot of respect for people that believe in god because of the way that they were raised (well, i think its because of the way that they were raised) but understand that the vast majority of churches are out to earn money, and therefore they dont attend church. i am solely talking about people that go to church on a regular basis.

Just because you go to church on a regular basis doesn't rule out the fact that you're still human. Sadly, there are plenty of church-goers who are not the perfect christians, and that's ok - we just need to realize and admit it. If we, as Christians, believe that the greatest commandments are to love God and your fellow man, then the criteria of how "perfect" a christian is shouldn't be the question. The question should be why we act as if we're better, and why don't we love our fellow man.

well, im counter-proof. im pretty fucking sweet myself. prayer: 1, no prayer: 1. TIE!

call me closed-minded if you like but the kind of study i was looking for would not be published on a website with multiple references to black magic.

am i incorrect that from the perspective of most christians, you can live the most virtous life conceivable, but if you dont accept jesus as your lord and savior, you wont go to heaven?

If you lived such a virtous life, the question goes back again to "who are you trying to please?" I believe that ultimately the pleasure is still selfish. I mean, who would want to help another person if there was no self-gratification in it? For the 2nd part, it shouldn't be the perspective of "most" christians, but all christians. The matter of Jesus as Lord and Savior shouldn't be up to the group to decide, but rather the individual. So maybe the better question to ask is "do I believe that I can get to heaven (assuming there is one) without Jesus?"

essentially. the way i look at it is this. if i were god, i would get really really bored of all these people telling me how great i was and how i was their savior and awesome and stuff. i would like the same type of people i like now. to me, not really understanding the meaning behind "god is great, god is good" i take it literally. when you say that, youre complimenting him. what kind of loser needs that much re-enforcement in real life?

Right, "if you were God." We can't be, and we can't apply our knowledge of justice, love, and soverignty to God. Its a form of anthropomorphism - we can ask the question of "what if" all we want but where would that get us? Who do you think you should ask, in order to justify your questioning of someone who supposedly created the universe? If really for a second, that you accept God is completely soverign, with perfect justice, and embodies love, would he still be a loser? Or would the person who's doing the complimenting be doing so because he wants to show his appreciation?

i dont think christians are evil, i think that the majority of them find that the church is the only place they can go to hear positive things. you want to cheat on your wife? tv says go for it. church says dont. i just wonder if there was a different organization, that provided the community and moral compass aspects of religion (which i think can be very good) if many borderline christians might prefer that to the creepy chanting and singing. in addition, as i said, it wouldnt be my business what other people do or think, but i am really frightened by the new ties that are being created with church and state. what do you think of those?

I think that your assumption is valid, but this "different organization" would ultimately just be a shell of the real thing. FYI, I don't chant. I hate christian music, and I hate any sort of praise that repeats "jesus is the lover of my soul" over and over again. I'm not sure if you are familiar with this, but Christianity should follow a train that goes like this: FACT -> FAITH -> FEELINGS. Meaning that truth (fact) precedes what you believe in (faith) which precedes your own emotional inhibitions (feelings). The fact is (and we can debate this) Jesus died for our sins. I have faith that He did die ane was resurrected the 3rd day. But I might not FEEL like I'm not a christian because of my sins.

The new ties with church and state? Why should this be any scarier than knowing that God knows everything you've ever done and will ever do?

[Facetious]

Just because you go to church on a regular basis doesn't rule out the fact that you're still human. Sadly, there are plenty of church-goers who are not the perfect christians, and that's ok - we just need to realize and admit it. If we, as Christians, believe that the greatest commandments are to love God and your fellow man, then the criteria of how "perfect" a christian is shouldn't be the question. The question should be why we act as if we're better, and why don't we love our fellow man.

i dont really understand what youre saying here, but the rest of the stuff is more about what im getting at, so forget it

If you lived such a virtous life, the question goes back again to "who are you trying to please?" I believe that ultimately the pleasure is still selfish. I mean, who would want to help another person if there was no self-gratification in it? For the 2nd part, it shouldn't be the perspective of "most" christians, but all christians. The matter of Jesus as Lord and Savior shouldn't be up to the group to decide, but rather the individual. So maybe the better question to ask is "do I believe that I can get to heaven (assuming there is one) without Jesus?"

i think its a lot less selfish to help others because you enjoy other peoples happiness than to help others to get into heaven.

Right, "if you were God." We can't be, and we can't apply our knowledge of justice, love, and soverignty to God. Its a form of anthropomorphism - we can ask the question of "what if" all we want but where would that get us? Who do you think you should ask, in order to justify your questioning of someone who supposedly created the universe? If really for a second, that you accept God is completely soverign, with perfect justice, and embodies love, would he still be a loser? Or would the person who's doing the complimenting be doing so because he wants to show his appreciation?

i find it hard to believe that someone who was so perfect in every way would care about how often he was praised to the point of denying someone an afterlife of happiness if they were an otherwise great person but just didnt praise him. i would think, that with all the powers he had, he would understand the circumstances leading up to that person not believing in him, and forgive the guy for that, given how much heinous stuff he also forgives people for

I think that your assumption is valid, but this "different organization" would ultimately just be a shell of the real thing. FYI, I don't chant. I hate christian music, and I hate any sort of praise that repeats "jesus is the lover of my soul" over and over again. I'm not sure if you are familiar with this, but Christianity should follow a train that goes like this: FACT -> FAITH -> FEELINGS. Meaning that truth (fact) precedes what you believe in (faith) which precedes your own emotional inhibitions (feelings). The fact is (and we can debate this) Jesus died for our sins. I have faith that He did die ane was resurrected the 3rd day. But I might not FEEL like I'm not a christian because of my sins.

well, my organization wouldnt be a "fake church" it would be a place where people could be a part of a positive community. i was just curious how many religious people REALLY were into the god stuff, and how many just enjoy the positive influence and community. obviously, youre really into the whole jesus thing, but what do you think about the other members of your church? how many of them speak of jesus and think of jesus the way you do in their everyday lives, and how many of them just sort of go through the motions when theyre at church because they were raised to go to church?

i think that the FACT is that there is no proof that the christian god exists, and a significant amount of proof that he doesnt. i have FAITH that the people who are running our country into the ground with their votes arent doing it because they are evil, but because they merely dont know any better. i FEEL as if someone with my perspective has to find a way to provide these people with a way of feeling good about themselves and motivating them to do good by other people without them getting wrapped up in what is essentially a government/church/media plan to make the poor miserable and the rich happy.

The new ties with church and state? Why should this be any scarier than knowing that God knows everything you've ever done and will ever do?

i dont see the analogy. the only thing that scares me if god knows everything weve ever done and will ever do is that hed let these nutjobs that are running our government and working to control our culture blasphemize him by claiming repeatedly that they are doing his work. i obviously dont believe in the christian god, but if he does exist, i would surely hope that he would not approve of what these people are doing.

[Bioture]

i think its a lot less selfish to help others because you enjoy other peoples happiness than to help others to get into heaven.

You said "enjoy other peoples happiness" isn't that a selfish reason?

i find it hard to believe that someone who was so perfect in every way would care about how often he was praised to the point of denying someone an afterlife of happiness if they were an otherwise great person but just didnt praise him. i would think, that with all the powers he had, he would understand the circumstances leading up to that person not believing in him, and forgive the guy for that, given how much heinous stuff he also forgives people for

But if thats your secular worldview, I can't convince you beyond your shadow of a doubt if you're already convicted, right? But who are you to say how God "should" act?

well, my organization wouldnt be a "fake church" it would be a place where people could be a part of a positive community. i was just curious how many religious people REALLY were into the god stuff, and how many just enjoy the positive influence and community. obviously, youre really into the whole jesus thing, but what do you think about the other members of your church? how many of them speak of jesus and think of jesus the way you do in their everyday lives, and how many of them just sort of go through the motions when theyre at church because they were raised to go to church?

Sadly, there are a good amount of church-goers that do not practice the values thought by the bible. My question to you is this: under what authority do any of us have to determine whether or not anyone is acting out of Christ? How close do you think a normal person could ever get to being flawless?

i think that the FACT is that there is no proof that the christian god exists, and a significant amount of proof that he doesnt. i have FAITH that the people who are running our country into the ground with their votes arent doing it because they are evil, but because they merely dont know any better. i FEEL as if someone with my perspective has to find a way to provide these people with a way of feeling good about themselves and motivating them to do good by other people without them getting wrapped up in what is essentially a government/church/media plan to make the poor miserable and the rich happy.

FACTS are facts. It's not a FACT if you have to -think- that it's a fact, right? If you have FAITH that the country is screwed, then you also have hope that it can be saved, right? If you FEEL that the church/gov't/media is a controversy, then its up to you to find out WHY, right?

As a previous athiest, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is easy to scapegoat religion and spirituality because it's something that you don't possess. It's easy to point your finger at religion, and use it as a vessel to magnify discontent. If there is a "selfless" act, if you enjoy helping other people, then help them! If you want to make the world a better place, then do it! If you think people are ignorant, then educate them! I don't understand how you can be convicted in your beliefs, much like I'm convicted in mine, but not do anything to show for them and then point out the problems with another doctrine.

As Jesus said, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? - Matthew 7:3. Do you think he was bullshitting, or maybe he was referring to our very human nature?

i dont see the analogy. the only thing that scares me if god knows everything weve ever done and will ever do is that hed let these nutjobs that are running our government and working to control our culture blasphemize him by claiming repeatedly that they are doing his work. i obviously dont believe in the christian god, but if he does exist, i would surely hope that he would not approve of what these people are doing.

They're not doing his work, and I agree that people are ignorant. What was the first thing I said about 75% of christians I know? And keep in mind that just because God doesn't approve, it doesn't mean that it's happening without a reason.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

As a previous athiest, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is easy to scapegoat religion and spirituality because it's something that you don't possess. It's easy to point your finger at religion, and use it as a vessel to magnify discontent.

I don't know if this is a good argument or not. I came from a semi-highly religious Christian background, and I still feel right in questioning it. I don't think it's right to say it's "easy to point your finger" specifically because you're agnostic/atheist/whatever--in fact, I think it's harder to do so, because you're actually taking all the facts and into account (not blindly assuming the correctness of the Bible/preachers/etc). I'm not saying that religious people are sheep, but I am saying that it seems that deeply religious people seem more eager to latch onto ideas that they don't necessarily understand.

Don't get me wrong--I think it's great that you found God. However, I think it'd be just as good if someone found anything to believe in.

[Bioture]

I don't know if this is a good argument or not. I came from a semi-highly religious Christian background, and I still feel right in questioning it. I don't think it's right to say it's "easy to point your finger" specifically because you're agnostic/atheist/whatever--in fact, I think it's harder to do so, because you're actually taking all the facts and into account (not blindly assuming the correctness of the Bible/preachers/etc). I'm not saying that religious people are sheep, but I am saying that it seems that deeply religious people seem more eager to latch onto ideas that they don't necessarily understand.

Don't get me wrong--I think it's great that you found God. However, I think it'd be just as good if someone found anything to believe in.

Questioning is different than accusing. I don't think it's wrong to question religion/spirituality, but don't do it if you already have in mind that you will reject the answer. In this case, are you really asking a question out of curiosity, or are you just trying to get across your own point?

My reasoning for saying that its easier comes from a different worldview. When I was an athiest, I thought that athiests were the more intellectually inclined, that we were after the "real" truth" and that christians are generally doing everything "blindly" (which some are) which holds no firm ground. I can make a very easy counterargument that deeply religious people are the ones latch on to difficult ideas that they do not want to latch on to - which is why they are strong in their faith. If this whole religion and spirituality thing was black and white, wouldn't everyone be eager?

I wouldn't word as "you found God." I don't think anyone finds God on their own accord but rather God finds you, and it's your responsibility (for lack of a better word) to respond.

[Theif of Time]

While we're on the subject of Religion, I'd like to put this out to the forum. Recently, while looking up info on the band Sethian, I stumbled upon the wikipedia entry for the Sethians, a sub-group of the Gnostic belief.
Now, this "Christian Gnostic" beliefs, as outlined in the wikipedia entry for Gnostic and accompanying entrys, made a hell of a lot of sense to me.
Now, let me ask: What do you think of these beliefs, both you followers of Yaldabaoth, and you who do not?

[Superted]

if prayer works, why isnt there proof? one would think at some point there would be a study, saying that people that pray get their problems solved some percentage of the time whereas people that dont get their problems solved less. since, this isnt the case, and obviously prayer doesnt change anything in the real world, why pray?

It does work. However, when it does many non-christians put it down to coincedence. Most of my prayers have been answered, some immediatly, some taking a while. The only ones that haven't been answered were because it was a selfish prayer or because God knows what's better for me or the person I'm praying for.

why dont you think its better to do good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds, as opposed to doing good deeds so that you can have a good afterlife? in fact, why do you think the exact opposite?

Do any of us really do good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds? Or is it simply to look better, to get laid, or to be owed a favour one day? Or most of all, do we only do good deeds so that we can feel better about ourselves? I agree I've done more good deeds since I've become a christian, but that's because I love everybody (or try my best to, at least) like a Brother. I don't even want an afterlife.

well, my organization wouldnt be a "fake church" it would be a place where people could be a part of a positive community. i was just curious how many religious people REALLY were into the god stuff, and how many just enjoy the positive influence and community. obviously, youre really into the whole jesus thing, but what do you think about the other members of your church? how many of them speak of jesus and think of jesus the way you do in their everyday lives, and how many of them just sort of go through the motions when theyre at church because they were raised to go to church?

Heh, you just described my church :P There's not so many 'religious' people there, just people with faith who dance while we're singing and stuff.

i think that the FACT is that there is no proof that the christian god exists, and a significant amount of proof that he doesnt.

There is absolutly no phsyical proof for or against the existance of God, but there is for Jesus (FACT). After coming to the unbiased opinion that Jesus existed I had to conclude that everything he said was true, thus God had to have existed (which took a small leap of FAITH), now my faith is powered by FEELings and experience.

After finishing reading this thread I realise I may have repeated a few things, sorry.

[ZeUs!!]

I dislike anything that doesn't exist and people align themselves to for the sake of killing other people who have aligned themselves to the opposite ficticious organisation. Hug now?

[1ight]

imo, ppl just sitting on the bench in church isn't really Christians. Though depending on their whole idea, commitment. I mean, okey so there is this man going to church every sunday, he sings his songs listens to the preacher, then afterwards continues with life, which is wrong. Comming to Jesus, to give your life to Jesus is more then -> "Okey.. I'll believe in you Jesus I know you are there, okey now that I know you, I'll still be the same old me, doing the same old things like I did before."

When you decide to follow Jesus, your life will change, Spiritually reborn as I think its said, you recieve the Holy spirit, which is our helper, send by the Son and the Father. It a begining of a new life with the messiah, Jesus Christ, Jeshua/Yeshua as it says in the hebrew bible, which also means salvation & victory, if I remember it right. I'm talking about a real choice, made from your heart and with your lips you have proclaimed that Jesus Christ is the LORD of your life.

I know my life have changed, and the word of God has become true in my life in many ways. As I've said before, if you really want to know who Jesus is, and whos His father is.. pray and seek His face, pray that He will show you that He exists, that He would show you in such way that you would understand it.

So, yeah, there are churches that doesn't even know who Jesus is, who are after money or whatelse.

Brother Yun - Heavenly Man, I think this book is a very intresting book, I think you should check it out if you are intrested. Its about Yun who at somepoint in life comes to meet Jesus in his life, how he grows, how harsh it can be a christian, very inspiring book for a christian and a non-christian, i'd think. Maybe it would give you some understanding what I mean with or my view, that I don't people that just sit in churches every sunday isn't really christians.

[Mulkero]

I don't want to be near religious people. I quit being a member of the church couple of years ago and I was a little afraid to tell my parents. Few months ago I did tell them, and they quit too.

[404 Not Found]

Religion is an interesting business. One that preys upon anothers fears of how one lives their life and how one will be addressed upon death.

To be a part of most major religions here in the States, usually one has to pay to be a part of it.

I didn't know that religion had a monetary cost...because if you do not pay, you are not allowed to be a member of that congregation.

If religion is such an important way of life for those that preach it, why do they charge people to be a part of it...and especially since they are tax exempt?

Speaking of Tax Exempt and Religion, this practice should stop immediately. This is big business!!!!!! Amazing that the religious leaders of most countries, especially here in the States, can push political views and tell how one should vote, yet they do not get the Tax Exemption taken away?

I find nothing wrong with religion as long as I do not have some asswipe telling me how I need to donate money, Attend regular services (as long as I pay) & always have their hands out looking for donation after donation.

Organized Religion is very Hypocritical to almost every definition of what it should be.

One can hold close their beliefs to their hearts and minds, but it should never be that one has to submit and obey what some asswipe with a 2 year theolgical degree has told them, just because they, the leader of the congregation, has dictated to these people how to live their life.

If someone has found religion and finds it to be a saving grace for them personally, thats great, but once you impose your beliefs on others that never asked for it, you are morally what's wrong with society itself in my honest opinion.

I myself am agnostic with a bit of Pagan belief.