Bush Admits We Aren't Winning Iraq War

[Liquid Blue]

The recruiters should have screened you out. No offense or anything but the last thing the military needs are people who A ) Think this is a modern crusade B ) Want some kind of revenge for 9/11.

Bad thing is that most of the people who signed up in the year following 9/11 probably signed up for the exact same reason. Same goes for Pearl Harbor and the people signing up afterwards. I personally don't think it's horrible to sign up wanting revenge, as long as they realize asap that they can't go out killing civilians in hopes of appeasing their anger/despair.

Ontop of that, after 9/11 I'm sure Bush wanted as many people signing up for that exact reason as he could possibly get. Would make his job alot easier and decisions questioned alot less.



The main problem with this entire situation is that the people in power weren't even being honest about why they were leading us into war with Iraq. It wasn't for oil, like Eph said before our gas prices are still high over here, if not higher. It wasn't for terrorism, which is the bullshit alot of soliders and civilians fell for. It also wasn't to stop Saddam and bring peace to Iraq - it was done for Bush's career, and for haliburton like 404 said.

Bush wasn't doing well in polls before 9/11, and while I don't believe he had a part in 9/11, I do believe that his staff made sure to use the situation to Bush's advantage. The United States felt invaded and needed a leader, they needed retribution for the attack that had occurred on their invincible shores. Most wanted revenge, and most wanted someone to tell them that they're going to be ok and it won't ever happen again. Bush did this by first going after Afghanistan, but he didn't find Osama there. By that point he realized that he didn't even need Osama specifically to sway the majority, he just needed a figure head in the middle east to take down, so he could get voted in again. That's why he went after Saddam. Haliburton only benefited from this decision as well. It wasn't oil, it wasn't for terrorism, and it wasn't for helping out the people of Iraq. Bush did it to get another term in and to look like a heroic leader. Pride, the downfall of far too many men to remember.

[Squeezer]

LB I have a hard time believing that an oil tycoon didn't think about oil when invading the country with the most stockpiled of any nation.

But other than that, I agree.

[Cylor]

The only viable resolution is a revolution in the highest order (i.e. the shoplifters of the world unite and take over). No institution, no matter how perfect anyone thinks it is, will ever fully succumb to man and instead will be exploited to keep those that created it in power. Will this ever happen? No, probably not. Instead you will have empires butting heads over what's left of the world's resources and since the United States and other top world powers have done the best job of not only exploiting its people, but also the indigenous populations of several other countries, they will continue to be the movers and the shakers in this 21st century. And like I said before, it doesn't matter how many libertarians the world has, there will always be ignorant fascists like Lizard Fuel (that one clear enough for ya, big guy?) who will continue to demean not only people in other countries for reasons like invisible boundaries or religion, but also the "animals" (see: blacks) in his own neighborhood. Do you realize that America's current counter-culture is Neo-Conservative? Does that make anyone elses stomach lurch?

[Liquid Blue]

LB I have a hard time believing that an oil tycoon didn't think about oil when invading the country with the most stockpiled of any nation.

But other than that, I agree.

I can see Cheney thinking about the oil but I still think Bush of too much as a prideful moron to let oil come into the equation. At best I would see him taking the oil as more of a vindictive, "haha i got ur oil" gesture, than a calculated one.

EDIT- Cylor, you're going for a "grass is always greener on the other side" mindset in regards to revolution. A worldwide revolution, global anarchy might sound better than the current people in power continuing to have their way with resources and human lives, but think about the long term. What will come after the revolution? If a stable government arises, what's there to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself?

A solution is in need yes, but I don't think revolution on a large scale is going to help matters.

[Epinephrine]

I think it's naive to think that the war was started for any one reason. Something this big had many reasons (not in any order):

1) Oil
2) Secure military bases in the middle east, as Saudi Arabia looked like a bad idea, and the minor gulf states are too small
3) Being able to isolate Iran further (on both sides, and to cut them off inbetween Syria and themselves)
4) Revenge (for Bush41)
5) Finish unfinished business
6) Neo-cons ideas about American power being used to advance democracy around the world and Iraq was a perfect test bed, Afghanistan is too poor and illiterate to work
7) Rumsfeld wanting to prove that the new nimble post-transformation military could be used effectively to deal with any problem using technology instead of overwhelming manpower
8) Military-Industrial Complex - i.e. munitions needed to be used up, equiptment needed to be used up and fixed or replaced, new untested stuff needed to be tested, army needed some battle experience, military contractors which had been hurting since the end of the cold war needed to drum up business
9) Business deals - Haliburton and shady business deals
10) International relations - I'm sure the Israelis were itching to have guaranteed airspace to attack Iran, and also to make sure Saddam doesn't fire any more scuds at Tel Aviv again.


11) Ego - I forget where I heard this, I didn't make it up, but I think it sums it all up best: Every 10 years or so the United States has to kick the shit out of some small country to show the world it's still the boss. It doesn't matter who it is, but Afghanistan was too easy, they needed a bigger target.

[Subjugation]

Regarding the Oil angle...if it was about oil, then it was completely indirect. The more blatant conspiracy is all the no-bid contracts, like 404 said. And what about the BILLIONS of US war funding that "went missing"?

[Lizard Fuel]

Thank you for your concern Kolar, but my motives for joining didnt exactly stay the same throughout my enlistment. Basic Training wipes that attitude of "Kill, kill, kill" out of your system. In my experienced opinion, there is a simple solution to this war. Put Saddam back in power. Yes, he is an animal and will rot in hell, but he sure knew how to run his country. His people were scared of him, and didn't dare defy him. Those who did, would get gassed. Unfortunate for the good people over there, but hey, life sucks. I say put saddam back in control, and Iraq will calm the hell down. Let the animals wipe themselves out, it shouldn't be the US's responsibility.

[Epinephrine]

Now he's calling them 'animals'?

[Spider]

Some people have a poor understanding of... pretty much everything.

Of course it shouldn't be the US's responsibility! That's totally logical. It's not like they ran in there against the will of the entire planet with the exception of coalition in which Estonia featured a prominent role. Not that I have a problem with former Soviet countries that are the size of Prince Edward Island, Canada, but they hardly lend anything global legitimacy.

You can debate all the little "facts" and values all you want but the bottom line is that America's action have been nothing if not morally bankrupt. A complete and total offense to all morality, to all who believe in the legitimacy of democracy and values of freedom, peace, love, and humanity.

Thats my two cents.

[Exalt]

You wanna end the war? Push a bill through the senate that reinstates the draft for ALL men and women between the ages of 18-22. Then watch as all these senators panic when their kids get called to active duty.

I can't remember the exact stat, but in WWII, more than half of the eligable sons of Senators and Congressman served their country. Now, of all the eligable sons and daughters of congress, only one serves. ONE!

They have no problem with sending other people's children to die, but when it comes time to give to the cause....Sorry, my son can't go fight.

good point squeezer

yeah everyone who joins the military signs up for it voluntarilly, but no one signs up for something to just die, or to unfairly be used in a manner which just makes others profit while they are forced to live in a shithole away from everyone they know and love for no real explanation.

the shit i do in the navy i cant even talk about, but its at least worthwhile, im not in the sand of iraq getting shot at for no reason, im on a submarine in the middle of somewhere you dont even know/think about strategically protecting the interests of the united states and its allies. its at least worthwhile to know my job means something, if not to me than to the lives of the people around me, and the lives of the people back home... in iraq the only thing you can get any satisfaction from is knowing you might be saving a fellow soldiers life, or maybe the few claps you get on your plane flight home from random civilians if your in uniform.

The war is really useless in everyones mind, but what can you do? We need to just pull out and let that country handle their own shit themselves, if they want to bomb the shit out of each other, well, let them. If you can't teach your own people that killing themselves and everyone around them is wrong then no one can.

edit: also stop blaming the troops for what wasn't their decision in the first place... you get ordered to do something and you do it, and why some random shitbag college kid that thinks hes smart because he took intro to philosophy with daddies money tries to explain to the world why America is immoral and everyone serving in iraq deserves to die only because they signed up for the military... well its beyond me. Blame what you want at congress or bush, but the guys actually doing the work (the military members) arnt the problem. You people voted for Bush and the rest of congress, you people should have figured it out.

[Cylor]

EDIT- Cylor, you're going for a "grass is always greener on the other side" mindset in regards to revolution. A worldwide revolution, global anarchy might sound better than the current people in power continuing to have their way with resources and human lives, but think about the long term. What will come after the revolution? If a stable government arises, what's there to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself?

A solution is in need yes, but I don't think revolution on a large scale is going to help matters.

You must have missed the part where I said my revolution is not feasible. There real solution will be created by those with the most power and without the people's interest in mind.

[Cylor]

...And like I said before, it doesn't matter how many libertarians the world has, there will always be ignorant fascists like Lizard Fuel (that one clear enough for ya, big guy?) who will continue to demean not only people in other countries for reasons like invisible boundaries or religion, but also the "animals" (see: blacks) in his own neighborhood...

Let the animals wipe themselves out, it shouldn't be the US's responsibility.

Count it!

[Kolar]

edit: also stop blaming the troops for what wasn't their decision in the first place... you get ordered to do something and you do it, and why some random shitbag college kid that thinks hes smart because he took intro to philosophy with daddies money tries to explain to the world why America is immoral and everyone serving in iraq deserves to die only because they signed up for the military... well its beyond me. Blame what you want at congress or bush, but the guys actually doing the work (the military members) arnt the problem. You people voted for Bush and the rest of congress, you people should have figured it out.

Who's trying to make that argument?

[DoTheFandango]

Today I took a shit, and I realized how free I was. thanks America. Without you, I would take shits in fear.

[Liquid Blue]

You must have missed the part where I said my revolution is not feasible. There real solution will be created by those with the most power and without the people's interest in mind.

I must have, thanks for clearing that up.