ITT: Religion

[Ivan]

Eat my cock, bitchface.

lolollololololoollo

[Salubrious]

For a person who's all open ears, your mouth and fingers sure move a lot.

[Bioture]

Firstly, to answer your question, I don't believe God owes me anything. But I tell you what he did owe a few people: guidance. I ask not that God takes away my pain for all the events I've experienced, I ask that God help those that needed his help. I asked him to help my father, and he moved halfway across the country to escape. I asked that God help my mother, and she's going through her second bout of Chemo. I asked that God give guidance to my friend in his time of need, and they found him in his bath tub with his wrists slashed soon after. I asked God to please let the church understand, because having AIDS is enough pain for someone...Being dejected by those you believe to be the Earthly representatives of God was not the response I thought God should have given. And then yes, after all of this I have asked (not demanded) that God help me through some times, and I have never once felt like he gave me positive guidance.

So you DO want something from Him. So what if He doesn't give it to you? What if somehow through all these times of suffering He still calls you to confide in Him? Will you curse Him and the air that you breathe until He does SOMETHING that's on your list? Let's think about it this way... when God called you (and I'm assuming at one point in your life, He did), did He ask for your life or for your problems? Where in the bible does it say God will remove hardship completely as long as you follow his guidance? Personally, sometimes God leads us to hardships because He knows we can overcome them. I'm not speaking for anyone else except you, however. I firmly believe that you have these struggles because God has allowed you to have them. So take heart in knowing that you're not alone.

For me, it's like the friend you always loan money to, even though you know he's not going to pay you back. God is someone that demands a lot. Love and trust are not things I like to just give away for the sake of feeling them. In my mind, you have to earn love. With the things I see in my day to day life, and the experiences I've had, I just can't bring myself to pour out devotion to God. He has the power to fix things, and with the way I've interpreted scripture, he doesn't make the necessary changes because he wants to teach us a big lesson which is: I am all powerful, and you shouldn't have betrayed me. Fine, I'm sorry my kind messed up, but I don't feel like humans should have to bear that weight forever. It's a silly grudge, and I don't deem it fair.

I agree because I was the same way. God does have unreal demands, no doubt. But let's assume that the Bible is correct for a second, and that God really is love. What is there left to earn? When you love someone else, when you love some inanimate object, when you love nature, music, sex, rock and roll, drugs, when you love... the gesture already belongs to God. He has the power to fix things (and He does) but I think the more important lesson is why should He? What does he owe us? Shouldn't we be thankful for all that we have, grief included, as a part of His grace? Who gives us air to breate, water to drink, and bread to eat? And there is no "weight" in the cross because in Christ we are WITHOUT sin. Jesus didn't come down to take away suffering. He came so we can be without sin and approach God earnestly, with all the love, rage, fear, and hatred in our hearts.

For me, it always comes back to the question of: Why do bad things happen to good people, yet good things happen to the wicked?

Good question. The perfectly honest answer is "I don't know." But what I do know is that it's not up to us to judge "bad things" apart from "good things." A murderer might win the lottery, but that doesn't make him any less of a murderer. Your mother's cancer doesn't make her any less of a mother. In fact I know people with cancer who's faith grew when they had to go through with the hardship. Is it wrong of God to use such an extreme measure to get us closer to Him? Will it matter when the day comes when we meet Him face to face?

This girl I dated back in HS recently emailed me because she was lonely at college. I got to talking with her, and as it turned out she had just lost her brother six days before Christmas to pnuemonia. Two years earlier she lost her mom to Throat Cancer (her mom had never smoked a cigarette a day in her life and was, for the most part, a very healthy 40 year old.) Now, her father's an alcoholic, and she doesn't know if she can complete school. This girl is a devout Christian, and was actually only able to attend college because they gave her a huge scholarship for her display of "Ethics in Modern Day." She still goes to church every Sunday, hasn't had a drink in her life, and is by far one of the kindest people I've ever met.

Why then is she punished with this? Why does the Lord feel it necessary to fuck with her. It just doesn't make sense.

Have you told her that the Lord is with her in her hardships? Or would you rather remove that avenue of comfort for the sake of "truth" or "realism?" God asks us to trust Him with our lives... it's no small task. When shit like this happens, I too ask God "why?" And more bluntly, "What the FUCK is going on?" But after I calm down, I realize it's simply not my place to assume the role of God. I hope that one day you'll understand that we may never understand God the way we would like to.

Ever since I heard the story of Lot, I wondered that. The lord took everything from Lot....Why? Because he was bored and Satan challenged his ego. Then, when Lot remained faithful, God gave him new children and herds of sheep, as if that somehow made up for all the antiquties Lot lost when God decided it would be fun to destroy a man's being.

How can anyone with righteous conviction worship something that would do that? Why would they? I'm all for living the credo's of Jesus, because I believe they were great guidelines for humanity, but I will not follow him alone. He was only a man...Flesh and blood. Nothing more, but nothing less.

If Lot knew that God would use him as a shining example of faith in the ultimate good through loss and suffering, how do you think he would have responded? Again, it's not our place to assume the role of God. But for me personally, just knowing that through all the times I've suffered that I can still confide in God is a victory over those who oppose Him. I don't go off pontificating Christianity or regurgitating the Bible because I know, that if you knew the suffering I have been through with Christ on my side, I have succeeded in showing you the light of God. I hope the girl you've described earlier will be able to do that. And I hope you will be able to as well.

Lastly, I don't buy into the idea of heaven. Personally, I've always felt that Hell got a bad rap. As stated earlier by Heavensent in the middle of one of his soap box judgements, Hell is not a place of fire and brimstone (a belief made very popular by Dante in his poems), but a place where you are without God. With that being said, I believe here on Earth we get a very biased view. It would be like living in Nazi Germany. They flooded the people with propoganda saying that the Jews were evil and needed to be exterminated. The German people, fearing what would happen if they were defiant, or being a part ignorant and only seeing what was presented to them by the higher authorities believed they weren't wrong for what they were doing. What if Earth is Nazi Germany, and we're flooded with propoganda? Maybe hell isn't such a bad place. Maybe Satan isn't such a bad guy. Of course God would call the guy that defied his unchallengable will "wicked." Maybe Satan saw God as egotistical (afterall, he does ask that a whole being of people revere him because he created us.) and decided enough was enough.

Not saying I necesarially want to go to Hell, I just don't see why everyone fears it so much.

Interesting parallel... I don't really have a proper response to it B) I don't fear Hell. Nor do I fear Satan, but I might be afraid of having to go through some of the trials I have ahead of me. Whenever I'm afraid however, I'm reminded that I've already been through so much. And I live a pretty blessed life right now.

[Squeezer]

I admire the fact that you're not looking for sympathy... and also the fact that you've been through tougher times than I have. I admire this because I take pride in suffering. I believe that the years of suffering is what makes you who you are. I've asked myself the age old question a million times: why does God allow this? Does God really care? Is He really there if these things happen?

I kept looking for an answer. Getting increasingly fustrated at God and sometimes even cursing Him for not giving me an answer. I asked about natural disasters, famine, wars, adultery... I asked and I've received nothing except this answer from God: an assurance that He loves me and will never leave me. Regardless of my changing opinions about love, hope, and faith. Regardless of all the horrible shit in the world that I have no power to make better. And in the long run, and this is the inexplicable part, I've realized that there is no single answer... there is no single answer because we all suffer differently.

God had answered that question, and I was the one who refused to accept it. In a way I was so caught up in pointing out everything that's going wrong in a full-blown philosophical debate with God that I forgot the one thing that's more important than them all: God is right there with you.

Like yourself, I have also forsaken that love... many times. Due to bad relationships, deaths in the family, etc. But in the end, and this is maybe where we differ, God always reminds me of the one thing that outdoes them all. Sometimes I forget that because I'm so caught up in making sense of God's plan.

My question to you is this: what does God owe you exactly?

Firstly, to answer your question, I don't believe God owes me anything. But I tell you what he did owe a few people: guidance. I ask not that God takes away my pain for all the events I've experienced, I ask that God help those that needed his help. I asked him to help my father, and he moved halfway across the country to escape. I asked that God help my mother, and she's going through her second bout of Chemo. I asked that God give guidance to my friend in his time of need, and they found him in his bath tub with his wrists slashed soon after. I asked God to please let the church understand, because having AIDS is enough pain for someone...Being dejected by those you believe to be the Earthly representatives of God was not the response I thought God should have given. And then yes, after all of this I have asked (not demanded) that God help me through some times, and I have never once felt like he gave me positive guidance.

For me, it's like the friend you always loan money to, even though you know he's not going to pay you back. God is someone that demands a lot. Love and trust are not things I like to just give away for the sake of feeling them. In my mind, you have to earn love. With the things I see in my day to day life, and the experiences I've had, I just can't bring myself to pour out devotion to God. He has the power to fix things, and with the way I've interpreted scripture, he doesn't make the necessary changes because he wants to teach us a big lesson which is: I am all powerful, and you shouldn't have betrayed me. Fine, I'm sorry my kind messed up, but I don't feel like humans should have to bear that weight forever. It's a silly grudge, and I don't deem it fair.

For me, it always comes back to the question of: Why do bad things happen to good people, yet good things happen to the wicked?

This girl I dated back in HS recently emailed me because she was lonely at college. I got to talking with her, and as it turned out she had just lost her brother six days before Christmas to pnuemonia. Two years earlier she lost her mom to Throat Cancer (her mom had never smoked a cigarette a day in her life and was, for the most part, a very healthy 40 year old.) Now, her father's an alcoholic, and she doesn't know if she can complete school. This girl is a devout Christian, and was actually only able to attend college because they gave her a huge scholarship for her display of "Ethics in Modern Day." She still goes to church every Sunday, hasn't had a drink in her life, and is by far one of the kindest people I've ever met.

Why then is she punished with this? Why does the Lord feel it necessary to fuck with her. It just doesn't make sense.

Ever since I heard the story of Lot, I wondered that. The lord took everything from Lot....Why? Because he was bored and Satan challenged his ego. Then, when Lot remained faithful, God gave him new children and herds of sheep, as if that somehow made up for all the antiquties Lot lost when God decided it would be fun to destroy a man's being.

How can anyone with righteous conviction worship something that would do that? Why would they? I'm all for living the credo's of Jesus, because I believe they were great guidelines for humanity, but I will not follow him alone. He was only a man...Flesh and blood. Nothing more, but nothing less.

Lastly, I don't buy into the idea of heaven. Personally, I've always felt that Hell got a bad rap. As stated earlier by Heavensent in the middle of one of his soap box judgements, Hell is not a place of fire and brimstone (a belief made very popular by Dante in his poems), but a place where you are without God. With that being said, I believe here on Earth we get a very biased view. It would be like living in Nazi Germany. They flooded the people with propoganda saying that the Jews were evil and needed to be exterminated. The German people, fearing what would happen if they were defiant, or being a part ignorant and only seeing what was presented to them by the higher authorities believed they weren't wrong for what they were doing. What if Earth is Nazi Germany, and we're flooded with propoganda? Maybe hell isn't such a bad place. Maybe Satan isn't such a bad guy. Of course God would call the guy that defied his unchallengable will "wicked." Maybe Satan saw God as egotistical (afterall, he does ask that a whole being of people revere him because he created us.) and decided enough was enough.

Not saying I necesarially want to go to Hell, I just don't see why everyone fears it so much.

[D1st0rt]

A reading from the book of Telcat:

"Are there stuff in the fur depth end of the universe that we are not be able to comprehend???"

[Bioture]

Bluebaze, the reason why people severely dislike you, is because you are trying to force your views down peoples throats, we are all fine with you believing that god created the earth and what not. But most of us here don't so there is no reason for you to factually state that God created the earth. All you have to say is: I don't believe in the Big Bang but in God creating the world.. that's all.

Right... as much as I'd hate to admit it, we have FAITH that God created the world. For some christians, that FAITH is enough to be PROOF. But we don't really have PROOF that God created the world outside of that FAITH.

To state something like that factually in a diverse crowd without offering faith would be quite pointless and fustrating.

[Blueblaze]

I completely agree with you... there are way too many Christians out there who are spoon fed and unable to think for themselves.

This is why it is important for a Christian to read, study, meditate, and practice what he finds in the Bible. That is why the writer of Hebrews (most likely Paul in my opinion) wrote;

Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Its ok to be spoon fed as an immature and young Christian, but you can't grow much beyond that if you stay on a spoon fed diet. You have to consecrate yourself to God on your own, and learn to take in the real meat of the Word.

[DoTheFandango]

GUYS, SERIOUSLY, I'M ALL EARS.
but you're wrong, and here's why.

[Blueblaze]

Bro :wub: Just a technicality. It's my trust in the Lord that enables me to trust in myself. I trust the Lord is taking care of me so that I can take care of self. A.K.A. no worries.

'Iron sharpens iron' doesn't have to be Christian sharpens Christian. As much as my exchanges with Christians may linger & have some influence in my decisions, so too can anyone else speak wisdom outside of the context of 'religion'. Truth doesn't always come dressed in religous pretense. Even Pummel can sometimes say something wise & profound.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

If the world and unsaved are enemies to God as James 4:4 says, then obviously you can have no friend which is unsaved, as no advice he can give is good advice unto God. This is why you take the Bible literally, Two Christians of good faith and belief, can encourage each other in the Lord and bring knowledge and wisdom to each other. If you don't take the Bible literally, then you can create 5,000 different meanings for that passage, and not know what to believe, thus the problem with private interpretations. Iron sharpeneth iron means as it literally is stating, a Christian sharpens a Christian's countenance. This is why you take the Bible as literal as possible, otherwise anybody can create any meaning for the Bible and claim it is a symbolic and true passage. It is absolutely dangerous and heretical to make the Bible say what it doesn't say.

[Bioture]

P.S. Use the brain "God" gave you, maybe you will see the hypocrisy(sp?) of christianity!

I completely agree with you... there are way too many Christians out there who are spoon fed and unable to think for themselves.

[HeavenSent]

Bro, your "I trust no one but my heart's interpretation" contradicts the bible's "lean not unto thine own understanding."

Plus, I've always been a firm believer of Prov 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." In other words, it wouldn't hurt to consider advice from others who are more knowledgeable than you are.

Bro :wub: Just a technicality. It's my trust in the Lord that enables me to trust in myself. I trust the Lord is taking care of me so that I can take care of self. A.K.A. no worries.

'Iron sharpens iron' doesn't have to be Christian sharpens Christian. As much as my exchanges with Christians may linger & have some influence in my decisions, so too can anyone else speak wisdom outside of the context of 'religion'. Truth doesn't always come dressed in religous pretense. Even Pummel can sometimes say something wise & profound.

[Blueblaze]

As well, if you trust in your own heart for interpretation, your trusting your heart which the Bible says,

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Proverbs 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Jeremiah 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The Bible talks much about how wicked our hearts are. I will be first to admit that my heart is absolutely evil, except for the Christ which liveth in me, but even Christians can easily fall into the wickedness of their hearts. This is why it is grievous to see people saying, I'll just follow my heart or let my heart take the lead and such. The heart is absolutely wicked, untrustworthy by all means.

[Bioture]

Oh, I used to speak to God. He "helped me" through my most trying years by causing my parents to divorce due to my Dad's adultery, having my best friend kill himself, giving my mother cancer, and having another of my friends be kicked out of his church for being HIV positive and not knowing where he got it from. That's a lot to put on the plate of a 15-19 year old kid who frequented Church every Sunday and said his Hail Mary's.

Yeah, some caring God. While you sit here and defend your rights on some stupid E-Forum with your computer (something you have the fortune of being able to afford), pretending your life is more than just a big waste, others starve to death, or die of diseases that we already have cures for. If God's watching, I wanna know what channel he likes, because I highly doubt he's ever tuning into the Africa network.

And as for the so-called ignorance I've read the Scriptures, the Dogmatic Law, and the CCC more times than I'd like to admit. I received a Catholic education from a man more dedicated to his faith than you (a true Christian, not someone that tells people to fuck themselves because they disagree) and I came to the conclusion that that lifestyle wasn't for me.

But it's for you, and I respect that, but I choose (remember that whole free will thing) to turn a deaf ear. I apologize if I refuse to bow in awe and give my life over to a being with the power to fix all, that refuses to do so because two dumbfucks decided to eat an apple millions of years ago. You go ahead and worship a God that holds a grudge like that, and I'll take my chances.

edit: I just read this post and realized that it's a little bit in the way of a "woe is me" kind of thing. I ask no sympathy for myself, or that you even give a shit about the things that have happened. I only ask that you understand that my disdain for God and my choice not to worship him is seeded in more than just trying to be a superficial E-Rebel, or to simply start shit. There are events in my life that have pushed me from God and that's where I am today. I'm glad that you feel close to him, but when I look around at the state of the world today, I can't bring myself to respect, much less adore something that can ignore that much pain and hardship. I feel that I have matured from someone that months ago would show an angry contempt to all Christians for having a faith I couldn't (sorry Superted....I know I never officially apologized for criticizing you about that, and being an immature dick when you were being very respectful about your faith...my mistake) to a person that can now acknowledge that faith is suited for some, but not for me. I'm happy that you can look past what I can't and see a being full of love...It's just that I can't ignore all the problems of this world and give myself fully to someone that watches us like an antfarm, asking our obedience when he refuses to give us respect. That doesn't fly with me, but I'm glad it works for you.

I admire the fact that you're not looking for sympathy... and also the fact that you've been through tougher times than I have. I admire this because I take pride in suffering. I believe that the years of suffering is what makes you who you are. I've asked myself the age old question a million times: why does God allow this? Does God really care? Is He really there if these things happen?

I kept looking for an answer. Getting increasingly fustrated at God and sometimes even cursing Him for not giving me an answer. I asked about natural disasters, famine, wars, adultery... I asked and I've received nothing except this answer from God: an assurance that He loves me and will never leave me. Regardless of my changing opinions about love, hope, and faith. Regardless of all the horrible shit in the world that I have no power to make better. And in the long run, and this is the inexplicable part, I've realized that there is no single answer... there is no single answer because we all suffer differently.

God had answered that question, and I was the one who refused to accept it. In a way I was so caught up in pointing out everything that's going wrong in a full-blown philosophical debate with God that I forgot the one thing that's more important than them all: God is right there with you.

Like yourself, I have also forsaken that love... many times. Due to bad relationships, deaths in the family, etc. But in the end, and this is maybe where we differ, God always reminds me of the one thing that outdoes them all. Sometimes I forget that because I'm so caught up in making sense of God's plan.

My question to you is this: what does God owe you exactly?

[Pummel]

I watched that shit and listened to the tapes alll the time when I was little.

Postman pat,
postman pat
postman pat and his black and white cat
*DOO DOO DOO DOO*
early in the morning
just as day is dawning
postman pat's a very happy man


That's from the top of my head anyway.

[Pummel]

It absolutely is religion, have you ever seen the Big Bang? No. Have I physically seen God? No. For me to be a Christian and believe in God's existence, it must take faith. For someone to be in support of the Big Bang and believe in it's existence, it must take faith. I believe God created the world. You believe Big Bang created the world. Sounds like a religion to me.

Wrong once again Blueblaze. The big bang is a scientifical THEORY which can be proven wrong or right at any point in time. I personally don't follow the big bang theory either.