Does religion give people better morality?

[Cops]

For the record, so do I. I don't believe that religious people should be disallowed from thinking the way they do, I believe that people should be able to make their own choice. However, I think religious people should allow their children to make their decision by themselves.

Just funny the way most religions don't afford such freedoms. The worst crime in Islam is to change faith, or indeed become athiest. Punishable by death in many Islamic states.

Why do you want religious people to breed, don't you think they're stupid because they're religious? Why should I make my own choice when you'll only look down on me for putting my faith in religion.

[Cops]

going to remove it.

[Kolar]

Do your work hippie.

[Cops]

class ended at 12, gonna go play some cs. By the way, did you eat my candy I had on my desk or can I blame Sean for that?

[Mythrandir]

Just an observation, secular extremists and religious extremists, while they may be equally rigid in their epistemological claims, are leaps and bounds apart from each other when it comes to expressed behavior.

[Cops]

generally yes, but ideologically they have the same stubborn ignorance, which is quite funny when they claim moral and intellectual superiority.

[Facetious]

Why are "religious people" generally more giving? It's one nation, under - what? Morals? Religion? Ignorance? Tolerance? Oh right - one nation under GOD.

What? I'm not sure that religious people are more giving. Also, as a couple people have said, I'm not sure what's printed on our money and what was added to the pledge of allegiance recently has any relevance to anything.

Whatever, as always in these discussions (on these forums and otherwise) there's a tremendous disconnect. I've realized what it comes down to is that the religious people I take serious issue with are not the people who take stock in their faith and are willing to have (at least somewhat) open discussion about it. My problem is with people who tell their congregations how to vote based on how they feel other people should live their lives, and those people who vote that way without examining anything else. Generally, those people aren't willing to have a reasonable discussion about anything. MetalHeadz, pissing everyone off isn't going to do any good. Whether you like it or not, people believe in Noah's ark and shit. It may not make sense to you or me, but beating them over the head with it isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

edit: Blueblaze viewing thread. Look what we've done!

[Galleleo]

If you're deluded enough to deny scientific reasoning and endorse a way of life based on an illogical explanation for our existence, you are, by my definition, stupid.

"Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein.

Being religious does not automatically mean that you have to believe every single thing that religion states. And science can't prove the big bang theory either, there is just a lot of evidence that proves that which the bible claims happened, did not happen. Doesn't mean you can't find strength or whatever in believing that there is a god or something like that.

I am not a big fan of religion, but that is more with religion itself, not with people like bioture, superted (as far as I can tell anyway) who are religious, and take good things from it. I will never be religious myself, but mhz, you are being far to extreme to the other side about it.

[MetalHeadz]

Just an observation, secular extremists and religious extremists, while they may be equally rigid in their epistemological claims, are leaps and bounds apart from each other when it comes to expressed behavior.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to kill you for being any believing anything. I'm not going to even discriminate against you for being religious. They'll just be something at the back of my mind saying, 'this guys gotta be kidding me'.

[MetalHeadz]

"Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein.

I'd rather be lame than blind. Einstein did live in an era when religion was very much mainstream.

Being religious does not automatically mean that you have to believe every single thing that religion states.

That's such a cop out excuse. I'm saying people who believe in God, end. People who half believe in religion because of spiritual reasons or through holes in science I can sort of appreciate where they're coming from. It's the full-blown bible bashers I'm talking about. God lovers. You know.

And science can't prove the big bang theory either,

Actually it can. I get the impression you're not the smartest person alive, so I'll give you a small lesson in basic astronomy. The universe is expanding, outwardly, at the moment. We can view galaxies movement through space via a phenomenon called 'red shift'. We can ascertain how fast a galaxy is travelling by the distance of the red shift. Given it's current position and speed we can therefore work back and, sure enough, every galaxy has identical starting points. Amazing eh? But sure, the big bang can't be proven, you're right. Oh my god, where does cosmic background radiation come from aswell Galleleo, let me guess it's a little green alien right?

there is just a lot of evidence that proves that which the bible claims happened, did not happen.

Gosh, driving the points home today aren't we. Yes! You're right! There's FUCK ALL evidence behind biblical stories. That's why if you believe them, you're dumb.

Doesn't mean you can't find strength or whatever in believing that there is a god or something like that.

Ofcourse it's comforting to believe that there's someone who will love you all the time, watching over you and answering your prayers. Ofcourse it's comforting to think that your loved ones are in heaven, looking at you. Ofcourse it's comforting to believe that anything you do in your life is forgivable and that you, yourself, will go to heaven if only you accept Gods' unlikely existence.

It's comforting, but it doesn't make it anymore true. It's almost a dissociative strength that is given to you. A strength based in delusion and ignorance. Be strong within yourself when you're down, dont look for religion. There's a lot to be said for thinking about things reasonably.

I am not a big fan of religion, but that is more with religion itself, not with people like bioture, superted (as far as I can tell anyway) who are religious, and take good things from it. I will never be religious myself, but mhz, you are being far to extreme to the other side about it.

My extremism is only a natural retaliation to the bullshit I put up with in this world today because of religion. At the end of the day, I'm only exercising my right for free thought, the way I allow others to think the way they do. You've seen the detremental role religion plays in todays society worldwide and my argument is that it gives us a growingly dated moral framework to abide by.

[Bioture]

What? I'm not sure that religious people are more giving. Also, as a couple people have said, I'm not sure what's printed on our money and what was added to the pledge of allegiance recently has any relevance to anything.

Well, how about the declaration of independence? Or the magna carta? It's not just the pledge of allegiance - but the influence this "God" had on western morality is undeniable.

And my morals and values are not affected by Judaeo-Christian values at all, they are my own morals and values, and just because at some points they might be the same (or really close to the same, values can be the same, but the way we interpret these values, our norms, hardly ever are the same) it doesn't mean mine are based from it.

So where do your morals come from? I'm going to assume that you get your morals from existing morals (please explain if it's not true, after you've read the below example). Morality exists because society acknowledges its existence. If you want to go into the whole sociohistorical, sociocultural, and sociopsycologial implications, here we go:

1) history, some dude named jesus said a long time ago: do unto others.. blah blah blah
2) society/your culture after this shit has been passed on for 2000 years says: do unto others as you would... blah blah blah
3) you after you've heard this shit from somewhere: hay lets do unto others cuz it makes sense!

And then you make that particular moral your own. You didn't make it up - it was already in place. So please tell me - which morals have you made up for yourself?

[Mythrandir]

And then you make that particular moral your own.

Now imagine saying exactly that to Jesus.
It is absolutely silly to claim that the golden rule was first expressed and applied 2000 years ago somewhere in the Middle-East. There have been societies and nations equally functional and disfunctional before and after this supposed turning point of human morality.

[MetalHeadz]

1) history, some dude named jesus said a long time ago: do unto others.. blah blah blah
2) society/your culture after this shit has been passed on for 2000 years says: do unto others as you would... blah blah blah
3) you after you've heard this shit from somewhere: hay lets do unto others cuz it makes sense!

Oh, but Qu'ran with the basic principles of the bible created 2000 before Christianity had nothing to do with it, eh?

We're not moral because it says to be in a fuckin' book, or because Jesus said so. We're moral because we've learnt that it's the best way to live harmoniously. To claim that one wacko group of ideologies, written 2000 years ago, shaped cultural definitions of todays society is absurd and indeed unintelligent. This is clearly disproven when we constantly see non-religious laws being passed, e.g. the legalisation of abortion, gay marriages. Or just cultural phenomena unthinkable in holy texts, 'multiculturalism, pornography, materialism'. It is impractical to say the least to apply a moral code like the Christianity to todays society. Societal culture is far too diverse and complex to be able to be pigeon holed into 10 commandments, for example.

I've already explained that we are predisposed with a basic understanding of what is good and bad through evolutionary processes - I've yet to see a decent argument put against those by yourself, I look forward to seeing them.

I would also like to add that the founding fathers of the American state, whilst religious themselves, made clear the distinction between religion and state. Jefferson said himself, rather tellingly:

''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

This was Jefferson, perhaps the most influencial founder of American culture.

[Blueblaze]

edit: Blueblaze viewing thread. Look what we've done!

Oh no! Cover blown

[genocidal]

I don't think Metal understood the Einstein quotation, which is not at all surprising. By "lame" he means inept or pointless.