It's the Official "Talk About the War" Thread!!!

[TelC@t]

Re: Re: Re: "Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by Pearl Jam
Here's the thing - the vast majority of Germany and Japan's population didn't protest their wars. Right now, it's the opposite situation here in America. Comparing the two is somewhat ludicrous.

Just because there are more protesters in the US-Iraq situation, it doesn't make protestors more 'non-human'. And what is your reason for calling those people who do NOT want to see either americans or Iraqies dying 'non-human' in the first place?

Originally posted by Pearl Jam
In addition, it is one thing to disagree with me. It's another thing to challenge my statements with open-ended questions that don't actually target what I'm saying. The emoticons rolling their eyes don't necessarily scream "class" either.

Using rolling eyes would add sarcasm in my question IMO. But it's all about personal tastes.

[Pearl Jam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: "Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by TelC@t
Just because there are more protesters in the US-Iraq situation, it doesn't make protestors more 'non-human'. And what is your reason for calling those people who do NOT want to see either americans or Iraqies dying 'non-human' in the first place?

You're taking what I said and selectively removing words to fit your context. Read between the lines - people can protest all they want, but protesting while a war is being waged doesn't save lives.

[TelC@t]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by Pearl Jam
You're taking what I said and selectively removing words to fit your context. Read between the lines - people can protest all they want, but protesting while a war is being waged doesn't save lives.

Originally posted by Louis XV
this may sound a bit strong, but I think nationalism is one of the most negative psychological attitudes out there. there is less logic to it than there is to racism. people get all riled up when someone 'insults' their 'homeland'. your homeland is nothing but a set of arbitrary lines drawn on a map. who gives a shit if your parents fucked across a river from where mine did. you stupid cunts. bear in mind that nationalism (loyalty to an arbitrary set of lines drawn on a map) was one of the driving forces behind WW1, and hitler used it to his advantage before and during WW2. we'll never progress as a species until we learn to drop the nationalistic attitude that pervades our thinking. it's just so irrational.

Yeah, let's use nationalism as an excuse to kill people, it would be sooo justified

Don't agree with me? go and blame Louis

[Pearl Jam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by TelC@t
Yeah, let's use nationalism as an excuse to kill people, it would be sooo justified

Don't agree with me? go and blame Louis

Using nationalism as an excuse to kill people? What are you talking about? How does that apply at all to what I've been saying?

[Blast]

TelCat, again, is making very limited sense. I'm not even going to comment beyond that, though, as to prevent a million of my personality flaws to be uncovered by Sheriff TK.

Anyway, I understand that protesting the war may be insulting towards the soldiers, and I really do have sympathy in that respect. But can I still protest Bush?

[Andy Rooney]

Re: quit your damn whining

Originally posted by ÆNIMA
I know that most of you are probably teens, and think you're all high and mighty...I know I am, I'm a teen as well. We know everything right?

I bet you didn't know that it's natural for younger people to question the government's intentions, no matter which policy it adopts.

And you know what I garauntee that you don't know? You don't know all of the facts that Bush has coming to his desk everyday concerning Iraq. All you know is that people are going to get killed, and you are afraid of that because you got hooked onto some hippy music.

I believe this war will be a success, simply because we're superior to the Iraqi army, but what I fear is that you people will not see the success, the only way you will ever support a war is if something tragic happens, do you suggest we wait for Saddam to funnel all of his weapons to terrorist ogranizations, wait for an explosion on the Eastern Seaboard before we go in wholeheartedly into a war. What would that cost us? Waiting for them to strike first (which is inevitable given there is evidence of plans for other terrorist attacks) would cost much more than getting it over with now.

Besides, this war is out of the people's hands, Bush knows the facts, he knows much more than any of us do, and he'll be able to make better decisions than us, remember that.

And if he is wrong, and Saddam will retaliate with "weapons of mass destruction," well, the world's gotta end somehow.

Ok you dumb back country hick. You didn't shed any light on anything for 99% of the people who use these forums. You just splattered these forums with your trash. You don't seem to realize <perhaps because you are a dumb red neck> that as of right now there is no proof Saddam Hussein had anything to do with terrorist attacks on the United States of America. So don't go around assuming that. It is reactionary simpletons like yourself who garnered support for this war for George Bush. Let me remind you this is a war for George Bush, not for the American people. He knew the world wasn't behind him and that a large portion of Americans <enough to keep us from fighting this war> weren't either. Pj makes a good point about the soldiers. Only assholes would protest the solidiers. Most conscious protesters know that the soliders are there under order. They are protesting the fight, not the fighters. This brings me to another point I guess. It is the fact that our media is being so censored by this war and this presidency. It even reaches past our own country too. That woman in Canada who called him an "asshole," got fired. The German who said Bush bears resemblence to Hitler got fired. Phil Donahue, one of the very few people on television speaking out against the war got fired from NBC. Helen Thomas, because she called the president the worst in U.S. history or something like that was made to sit in the back of the press conference, and wasn't even allowed to ask a question. What ever happened to people being allowed to express freedom of thought? Whatever, a lot of shit is getting out of hand, something needs to be fixed.

[TelC@t]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: &quot;Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by Pearl Jam
Using nationalism as an excuse to kill people? What are you talking about? How does that apply at all to what I've been saying?

You are calling protestors 'non-humans' because they do not support US army. It is nationalism in disguise.

[Epinephrine]

Re: &quot;Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

Originally posted by Pearl Jam
Easy to make judgements based on the information you receive through the television.

Our soldiers have been thrown into this war....any American who continues to protest this war after our men and women are overseas fighting is a non-human, in my opinion.

Since I'm not American I'll still say that Bush is so blantently lying or stretching facts that it's not even funny.

So I guess you can call millions of people who protested during the Vietnam war non-human right? I don't see why in a democratic country where the right to protest and the right to free speech is the so called ideals which America is supposedly fighting for in Iraq, speaking out makes anyone a "non-human".

I find it funny that America ignores the will of the UN to fight a country that ignores the will of the UN.

I find it more funny that Bush's speech was filled with blatent lies, or blatent exaggerations which when said in the way that they were said could be easily misinterpreted as lies. Here's some in the speech which got me laughing out loud:

1) Iraq has trained members of al Queda.

Okay maybe some members of al Queda were at one point part of the Iraqi war machine in the past. Maybe Iraq might of talked to one or two al Queda people. But the fact is Osama Bin Laden called Saddam an infidel. They aren't friends. Al Queda is no friend of Iraq. They hate eachother!

2) Iraq is the country which pocesses the greatest threat to global security today.

How about North Korea? How about Iran? They're actually close to getting nukes. All the so-called evidence the US had which said Iraq had nukes which was released, has already been rebuked by the weapons inspectors. This information was hidden away in the American media if reported at all (well at least in TV news, as I read this in the NYTimes).

3) In 1-5 years Iraq will have great power to harm the US.

C'mon really. Iraq is being bombed continously every day, and has been for 12 years by British and American planes. Until a few days ago there were a few hundred weapons inspectors all over the country scouring everywhere they could. Iraq has very severe sanctions placed upon it, and by any measure is much weaker than it was 12 years ago when America easily smacked it around.

4) America is a country of peace, Americans do not want war.

True, but too bad their leaders don't follow this.

5) America has exhausted every single possible means to find a peaceful solution to this.

This is so blatent a lie I just don't know what to say. It took them until today to build up enough troops to actually fight a war. Today was the day Bush wanted in the original UN Resolution cause it was the EARLIEST POSSIBLE TIME he could of fought a war. There was no comprimise ever. There was no serious dealings with countries. When America fought the Gulf War, Richard Armitridge (the Secretary of State under Bush Sr.) had seven around the world trips, and even visiting Turkey four times in order to get international support. Powell has done barely anything of that sort save picking up a phone.


The entire speech was such lies it wasn't even funny. Apperently there was a gallup poll recently that found 65% of Americans believe that Saddam supports Al Queda. This is such a joke, and proves how easily Bush has lied and how easily the American public in general has swallowed up the lie. The CIA thinks it's ludacris and so does anyone who realizes that those two groups HATE EACHOTHER. It's actually a matter of public record that Osama actually was about to make his own private army to attack Iraq before the last Gulf war, but the Saudis told Osama to screw off and let the US do it.

The reasons that Bush listed for this war are basically bullshit. There has been a very long high-level right-wing movement in influential circles of the US Government to oust Saddam growing for the last decade or so. Clinton fully rebuked these guys, but Sept 11th and Bush gave these guys a chance to do their plans. These plans were created before international terrorism came to US shores, and during the full decade where Saddam did absolutely nothing to threaten the US. It's sad that he has to lie to the American public to achieve his aims, and it's sad that he's servely hurting a lot of international relationships and risking the entire UN system which the US developed and defended for the last 50 years to do this.

-Epi

[Blast]

Ol' Peej wasn't referring to people that discussed the war or cast it in a negative light, he was talking about people marching with picket signs, if I'm not mistaken. But, yeah, I agree with most everything you said, assuming you have facts to back yourself up. However. B-L-A-T-A-N-T spells blatant.

[Qbe]

Re: Re: &quot;Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups

THANK GOD I ACTUALLY SHARE POILITCAL VIEWS WITH SOMEONE. IT'S A MIRACLE.

Epi, I'm going to section out parts of your reply. It was very well written, and it seems you've got your information straight. GG.

And I'd just like to say that I didn't actually watch the speech (I was pretty sure of what he was going to say -- I didn't see the point) but, like others, I'm getting the gist through people talking about it. Anyway...

Originally posted by Epinephrine
2) Iraq is the country which pocesses the greatest threat to global security today.

How about North Korea? How about Iran? They're actually close to getting nukes. All the so-called evidence the US had which said Iraq had nukes which was released, has already been rebuked by the weapons inspectors. This information was hidden away in the American media if reported at all (well at least in TV news, as I read this in the NYTimes).

THANK YOU. Latest reports state that Iraq, even with a chrash program, is about 10-15 years from developing their first nuclear warhead. North Korea, however, is estimated to have HALF A DOZEN warheads within the next YEAR. I'm not sure about Iran -- I haven't heard anything about them unfortunatly.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
4) America is a country of peace, Americans do not want war.

True, but too bad their leaders don't follow this.

I found that amusing, but so true.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
5) America has exhausted every single possible means to find a peaceful solution to this.

This is so blatent a lie I just don't know what to say. It took them until today to build up enough troops to actually fight a war. Today was the day Bush wanted in the original UN Resolution cause it was the EARLIEST POSSIBLE TIME he could of fought a war. There was no comprimise ever. There was no serious dealings with countries. When America fought the Gulf War, Richard Armitridge (the Secretary of State under Bush Sr.) had seven around the world trips, and even visiting Turkey four times in order to get international support. Powell has done barely anything of that sort save picking up a phone.

That just speaks for itself.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
...but Sept 11th and Bush gave these guys a chance to do their plans.

Yet again, I must rejoice. I personally think that there is more politics behind this war than 'American safety', but that's just my thought.

Americans are still pissed about 9/11, and, even though Afghanistan was already bombed, Bush simply used the terrorism card and said 'Oh no! This country is producing powerful weapons which could topple our own power which is not good. We must disarm them by saying the weapons they have will be used for terrorist uses. Wow, and I may even get some votes because of this! What a great deal! Quickly, get me a speech.'

I think that all these U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq not having 'weapons of mass destruction' (God, I hate that phrase) are quite stupid. Hell, Hussein has never even used them (to my knowledge), which leads to one of two things:

1) He doesn't want to use them, and is simply using them for his own protection.
2) He doesn't even have them in the first place.

The countries that support these resolutions, ESPECIALLY America, are quite hypocritical in my eyes -- obviously they can produce WoMDs without the world worrying about it, yet other, smaller, countries aren't allowed to produce them? Bah.

* * *

That's my four cents.

[PolluX]

Originally posted by TelC@t
Politics is all about lies and manipulations, if you are honest, you wont get very far.

His real problem is his stupidity.
He is not doing a good job in either hiding his motives or backing up his lies.

Untrue politics is about saying the things people want to hear. If you can manipulate people -like Bush did by propaganda- you really have power, to bad people always use that power to do stupid things.

[Mantra-Slider]

Stop it before its too late :/

Despite president Bushs speech about a "wide coalition" against Iraq, it is only USA, Great Britain and Australia who is that coalition.
Despite all rhetoric USA is one lonely superpower. If it "goes well" in the war USA can however triumph those who had doubts.
Still USA, according to many international (peoples)law experts (and the majority of the members of the UN security council), is now putting themself in deep troubles. According to international (peoples)law this war they might start is actually illegal.
A fast war with few people killed might save USA from the moral dilemma, but they might still risk to lose the world opinion - even if they win the war (which they really should, they are way superior)

The meaning of "the war goes well" does not only include that Saddam will dissapear and an invasion of iraq. That also include solving the problems that occurs after the actual war.
Iraque has to build up itself both political and economical. In the long run the rest of the middleeast will be unstable. To handle such problems there will be a need for alliances. and money. the pre war expenses have already driven the american budget to its limit.

Already before the war has started, the diplomatical collapse will have consequences that goes beyond the iraq crise.
Leaving the UN-system of collective security thinking,like USA did, there are new principals being introducted; a super power is giving the signals that they can do whatever they want to, in difference of small countries.
Certainly there would be very few people feeling griev over the death of Saddam, but if some countries feel they can do whatever they want to - well, the whole security system that has been built up after the cold war will break up.
This might be to drag the consequensec to a limit - but the international system is built up of a thinking like this. valid to small as to big.

Already there is like a PR-war between France and USA about whos to blame about the UN collapse.
USA says that while threatening with a VETO, everything was fucked up by France. Who in return says that USA was lacking the majority in the security council and that this council is the only organ in the world that can decide about war.
USA says that the resolution 1441 that came this autumn is giving an automatical right to war. Already back then France, Russia and China said that so is not the case. What they say today is therefor only the same thing as they said a couple of months ago.
Bush says that there are earlier UN resolutions about iraque. UN was ok with a war back in 1990-91 and since Iraq hasnt obeyed the resolutions, they have a right to war them again. However it is only the UN security council that can decide in this question. USA can not take these rights.

According to Bush the "opponents" do not want to disarm Iraq. What we have seen so far is that this is not the case. They just want to give the UN inspectors more time. With this time they say they can solve this problem with a peacful solution. The battle here is only a matter how Iraq should disarm, not if.

The paradox thing in all this is that since USA is lacking support of UN for this battle, it is formally an attacking war. Saddam is being attacked - and therefor have international (peoples)law to selfdefense...

He shouldnt have been elected in the first place and ever since he got the power in the country it seems like he hasnt done anything that isnt war related. Prove that the american people isnt as stupid as their president. Fucking do sumthing before its too late...

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Re: Stop it before its too late :/

Originally posted by Mantra-Slider
Already there is like a PR-war between France and USA about whos to blame about the UN collapse.
USA says that while threatening with a VETO, everything was fucked up by France. Who in return says that USA was lacking the majority in the security council and that this council is the only organ in the world that can decide about war.
USA says that the resolution 1441 that came this autumn is giving an automatical right to war. Already back then France, Russia and China said that so is not the case. What they say today is therefor only the same thing as they said a couple of months ago.
Bush says that there are earlier UN resolutions about iraque. UN was ok with a war back in 1990-91 and since Iraq hasnt obeyed the resolutions, they have a right to war them again. However it is only the UN security council that can decide in this question. USA can not take these rights.

I wanted to touch on a couple of things. I admit first that I don't really respond in these forums on this topic because it's one of those things that I feel can't be changed. I could have an optomistic outlook that I live in a country whose opinions are shaped by the will of it's people, however that dream is quickly fading.

However, the whole US/France/UN situation was fucked from the beginning.

The US has been steadily building a military force in the region ever since before UN resolution 1441. Any political analyst either in the US (or around the world, for that matter) knew exactly where this thing was going from the get-go. The Bush administration has taken it upon itself to ignore a sizeable (we were a majority at some point, weren't we?) portion of the population and go ahead with something that no one's excited about--save maybe US big business.

France hasn't exactly been playing "big boy on the playground," either. By saying that any resolution enforcing concrete dates would be automatically vetoed, they're essentially shaving off any diplomatic recourse the world might have still had. This is the thing, and I want to preface it by saying that I'm not pro-war, and I'm definitely not pro-Bush. Here's the deal--if you have an ultimatum with no set dates, and no consequences if said dates are not met, what's to enforce the ultimatum? That's the only part of this whole thing that I agree with. You can assume that everyone's going to play nice, but human nature dictates that that won't necessarily be the case.

To say that either side wasn't swayed by economic issues is also a complete falsehood. Basically, you have two nine year-olds bickering like they were fighting over the ownership of a tetherball court. It's dumb. Shame on both countries.

Originally posted by Mantra-Slider
He shouldnt have been elected in the first place and ever since he got the power in the country it seems like he hasnt done anything that isnt war related. Prove that the american people isnt as stupid as their president. Fucking do sumthing before its too late...

Yeah, because massive war protests mean nothing. Come on Mantra. Short of a revolution, there's not a lot more that can be done here. Like I've said, it's already apparent that our government isn't listening to the will of it's own people. Our lawmakers seem preoccupied by The Almighty Dollar, and couldn't possibly be concerned with things like human rights or international law. If Sweden listens to it's people, great, you go out and stop Sweden's support for the war. One less ally means greater pressure on Bush. But by blaming a US war on the people of the US is about as dumb as blaming Saddam's genocide of the Kurds on the Iraqi people. They're two separate entities.

All this being said, I think I somewhat identify with Peej's statement. While I'm 100% against a war that could've been avoided, I can't help but support the actual troops (not their orders, but the people--the standard-issue footsoldier). My father is a Vietnam veteran. He came home from a war he didn't endorse and was treated to the same ill-will that most other soldiers were exposed to upon returning to the US. I'm sorry if this lumps me in as another "Imperialist American" (which it shouldn't, but it seems a lot of people want to slap a quick-n'-easy label on things so they don't have to actually make informed decisions) but the fact of the matter is that this war is inevitable. The only thing left to do is just to hold onto our asses until it's over and Bush can be exposed for all of the shit he's going to start.

[Yojo]

I found it quite comical when he said to Saddam and his army not to touch the oil wells becasue they are part of the wealth of the IRAQI people.

It is quite obvious that Bush is partly involved in this war becasue of the oil. Yet here in America we drive SUV's to go the the mall. Today I saw a bumber sticker on the back of an SUV that said "no blood for oil". Now, I mean, how hypocritical is that?

[Exiled Soul]

Politics at that level is beyond comprehension since it requires to be critical of everyone involved at every level, which I doubt any of you can do. Even your educated opinions suffer, no matter how educated/intellegent you are the government will always have people more intelligent than you. Get the fuck off your high horses.

Oh, usa goes to war because everyone else is too pussy to have other nations angry at them. This is just the american way of sharing love. Take the beating and go home.