Hamas and Israel

[Exalt]

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

Sure I can. WW2 was only 60 years ago. Thats your grandparents generation right there, and who do you think are running the world governments? Your grandparents' generation and in some cases your parent's generation, not YOUR generation.

Europe has always been about talking but never doing what they say. All of you are condomning Isreal on this forum, but not realizing Isreal has every right to defend themselves as a nation. If your country was fired upon constantly by your neighbor, you wouldn't want to invade them and stop it? You know what the answer to that question is. And for those of you who complain about civilian deaths, well, people die in war. Get over it. No matter how "smart" a bomb's name can sound, it's still a bomb, it has a blast radius, and people can always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Welcome to the real world.

Sorry Farscape but once the oil is gone you and your Muslim friends can go at it and the rest of us will be tuning out.

this is whats wrong with Europe too... you all say "WE LOVE PEACE AND DEMOCRACY!" and then say "WE DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THESE COUNTRIES! DIE ISREAL DIE!

none of you seem to realize the bullshit that is brought onto Isreal's door everyday, and none of you even care... the palastinians could have lived in peace by letting deplomacy work and keeping with the peace treaty, but they did not, and firing even a single bullet over into Isreal was a STUPID move on their part

the problem with terrorist groups are that they do not think about the consequences of their actions, lets look at 9/11 for instance... Al Queda sure as hell didn't think USA would come after them as they did or they wouldn't have done it, they screwed up in that aspect, terrorist groups are not as organized as everyone 'thinks' they are, they are a bunch of hoodlum thugs that use politics and religion as their reasoning for doing criminal acts

if the Palastinians were actually smart, they would look at HISTORY and realize violence NEVER solves anything in a diplomatic standpoint... they should take notes from Ghandi or from Martin Luther King etc etc if they want to get anywhere in this whole process

And to the rest of you USA/Isreal hating European countries, why don't you try having a 9/11 type attack on your country, and tell me you still LOVE terrorists. Better yet, go fly to the Gaza strip and tell Hamas how much you love them. Either you will get your throat slit or you will get some bombs duct taped to your body. I'm sure you will be rooting against Isreal then.

[Capital Knockers]

No, fuck it, I really can't get into this thread, I'll never shutup. inch:

[R1pp3r]

Farscape has been painting a pretty ugly picture of how he as an Israeli feels about the war. Therefore I thought I'd post an article by a somewhat dissident voice from the israeli magazine Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054158.html

Will hopefully be a refreshing read.

[Zerzera]

But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.

Those two go hand in hand though. You can't expect people to teach their children to be sympathetic and compassionate when they themselves are distrustful, dogmatic and full of hatred towards their neighbors.
It's reasonable that both Israelis and Palestinians have a moral of violence against each other, you sound just the same as them. Don't expect Europeans to agree with that, we prefer to work to peace and stability rather than upholding a sense of supremacy. So if you feel that you need to annihilate the Palestinians in order to survive, do what you want, but don't come and spew propaganda here. And don't expect the Palestinians ever to give up if you don't work to a peaceful solution.

Never the less, Terrorist groups and Islamic radical voices do raise in Europe, and it something even YOU can not ignore nor deny.

Things like this. Why do you even say this? Terrorists have and always will be part of society, and what you claim at least isn't true in the Netherlands. We do have some Islamic radicals, and some of them got arrested for planning terrorist attacks. But that's nothing new, we've had left-wing terrorism in the Eighties. So we have to join in on an ethnic cleansing of your region because of this? You don't strike me with fear, you only sound to me like a pathetic idiot that is filled with hatred and paranoia.

[Kolar]

You can already see Dubai.
But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.
Iran could prosper if they didn't had fanatic government.

Sorry Farscape but once the oil is gone you and your Muslim friends can go at it and the rest of us will be tuning out.

[R1pp3r]

P.s

It's a bit odd that someone who talk about European/Western values, actually defend those who are against it (and attack those who are based on it, tho I might have a clue of why you do so).

I don't think it's odd at all. Maybe that someone believes in democracy and diplomacy instead of violence and hatemonger.

[FarScape]

The Eurabia theory is ridiculous and I'm glad that article contains a passage from the Economist that I totally agree with; it's nothing more than unfounded scaremongering.

I really don't mean to play ad hominem but I'm not really surprised to see this coming from you

Well I actually removed it. even if it will happen, it wont be in my life time and probably the Muslims in Europe will go non-religious before all Europe will be under the Sharia law (but you know, nobody can predict the future).

Never the less, Terrorist groups and Islamic radical voices do raise in Europe, and it something even YOU can not ignore nor deny. What I tried to said by that link was that the pluralism you believe in, might actually serve other purposes, and giving a base for the opposite ideas that you believe in. So even a liberal and democrat with an open mind pluralism and love for humanity, need to defend his values against those who jeopardize them. Wont you do everything to protect it? will you risk your own values in order to do so?

By the way, if we're gonna do predictions I might as well argue the opposite: Once the oil in the Middle-East runs out or becomes obsolete and turn a lot of Arabian countries into economic jokes, they will be looking to their closest neighbour Europe as an example of succesful economic integration and increased prosperity which were brought about on the basis of post-war European/Western values.

You can already see Dubai.
But its a matter of education and changing their values, and not economy.
Iran could prosper if they didn't had fanatic government.

P.s

It's a bit odd that someone who talk about European/Western values, actually defend those who are against it (and attack those who are based on it, tho I might have a clue of why you do so).

[Nycle]

In few years, someone will say the same thing, but he will probably live in Eurabia :-P

The Eurabia theory is ridiculous and I'm glad that article contains a passage from the Economist that I totally agree with; it's nothing more than unfounded scaremongering.

I really don't mean to play ad hominem but I'm not really surprised to see this coming from you

By the way, if we're gonna do predictions I might as well argue the opposite: Once the oil in the Middle-East runs out or becomes obsolete and turn a lot of Arabian countries into economic jokes, they will be looking to their closest neighbour Europe as an example of succesful economic integration and increased prosperity which were brought about on the basis of post-war European/Western values.

[FarScape]

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

And I assume you say that because Europe called back all their forces from Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Nycle]

Europeans should have no right to talk about the Jews anyway, considering what they allowed to happen to them during the 1930-1945 era. Remember the holocaust? That's the whole reason Isreal became a new nation anyway. If you fools didn't allow Hitler to do what he did in Germany there would never have been this problem.

I can't even begin to tell how many things are wrong with that statement so I'll just put it this way:

You can't blame us for mistakes that were made in Europe at a time when we weren't even born yet. What matters is the position you take today, and that gives us all the right to talk about whatever we want. Pre-war Europe is not the Europe it is today, you don't seem to take that into account.

[Zerzera]

Europeans should have no right to talk about the Jews anyway, considering what they allowed to happen to them during the 1930-1945 era. Remember the holocaust? That's the whole reason Isreal became a new nation anyway. If you fools didn't allow Hitler to do what he did in Germany there would never have been this problem.

You finally get it. Although I don't know if it's okay to bring up the Second World War, because it might have been discussed on these forums again.
About every country in Europe, by now, acknowledged the many mistakes made prior to and during that war.

[Zerzera]

He wasn't justified, he decided to address the american population in a negative way just because Exalt was poorly addressing the people in Gaza

'poorly addressing', sure. You can't condemn what he said but then try to tell me what I should or should not do.

1 or two people could have just commented on how they thought Exalt's an idiot or he should open his eyes more or whatever. But no, Big bad Zerzy has to go on with this drivel-

That's exactly what you are guilty off. Not speaking up. You enabled Bush, and so you are as guilty as him. Especially since your country is a democracy. Of course if you give someone power he can abuse it, but instead of looking away, you could speak up.
And instead of saying you want nothing to do with what Exalt says, you attack me. What I said was a personal attack on Exalt and people that share his ways. You took it as an attack on everyone. But if you feel that you did everything necessary to be against the war, why feel offended?
I will always speak up my opinion on this matter, and maybe you should start doing the same, instead of supporting the people with the mindset of; when the shit hits the fan, it wasn't me.
I think the more people who fire at posts like Exalts, the better. One or two isn't as clear as 3 or more.

Can you get off of your soap box already? One page ago you were asking in the thread why we have to keep talking about America and then you go off on some rant to the population about how ignorant, self-obsessed and weak we are.

And I was truly hoping that we could leave it at that.
But no, it wasn't directed at the entire population. That is a generalization you made. It was directed at the people who were cheering or didn't speak up when the army was building up, and now say that they didn't know and Bush is to blame. Take some responsibility of your actions -or the lack thereof-, because you live in the freest country in the world. Don't you see what a distorted message that war and its aftermath sent out to the world?
Okay, I might be harsh and unfair, but I didn't get on a soap box, I was commenting on a person you should have condemned before any of us.
But again you don't speak up, and now you are quick on denouncing someone who has the guts to do speak up.

Keep your bitching about the American population and the mistakes you think we've made to a minimum and we'll be good.

I didn't bring up America, but I will respond to it anytime. If you hadn't posted, I would have left it at one post and all would have been fine. But you had to attack me. Now if you respond, I will respond again. Or you could look away like you do best, and I will go back to topic.

[Kolar]

Direct military intervention by the US or UN-American peace keepers on the ground would only inflame the situation and give Al Qaeda and Iran a second front. If Israel is successful in dismantling Hamas (before Obama comes in) in time then they may move back to the fringe of Palestinians politics allowing Abbas to bring some order to Gaza and get some kind of Government in place when he leaves in 2010, one that is open to a peace process. Either that or Israel is going to level the place. I agree the US has to be involved because they have been from the start, but they have to tread lightly. If Obama holds some form of open diplomacy with Iran it might also help defuse the situation.

I'm not sure what you mean by public movement, I was commenting on how Exalt was distorting the responsibility the American people have for the war in Iraq and the Bush legacy through the democratic process in contrast to the responsibility the Palestinians have for electing Hamas and the current situation in Gaza.

[Squeezer]

back on topic,
American involvement in the ME crisis particularly in the Gaza Strip can't go without comment, without its support Israel wouldn't have the fire power or basic technology it has to defend against and attack its neighbors.

Responsibility can neither rest entirely with the public or without. But to distort what little they must carry is a very dangerous game to play, which I think both Zerz and Exalt can be blamed for. But I'm not sure if Zerz is offering up anything more vitriol in terms of attacks then what Exalt or people of his ilk would given the chance.

Nor can the fact the American involvement is now necessary to clean up the mess. We're a week away from having a guy in the office that was voted in partly to end that war, as well as begin a process of diplomacy that is vastly different from the last 8 years.

What kind of public movement (are)were you looking for?

[Kolar]

He wasn't justified, he decided to address the american population in a negative way just because Exalt was poorly addressing the people in Gaza

back on topic,
American involvement in the ME crisis particularly in the Gaza Strip can't go without comment, without its support Israel wouldn't have the fire power or basic technology it has to defend against and attack its neighbors.

Responsibility can neither rest entirely with the public or without. But to distort what little they must carry is a very dangerous game to play, which I think both Zerz and Exalt can be blamed for. But I'm not sure if Zerz is offering up anything more vitriol in terms of attacks then what Exalt or people of his ilk would given the chance.

TO HOPEFULLY CONCLUDE THIS BITCHING:

Good luck with that.