Hamas and Israel

[FarScape]

With all dear respect, Farscape, but are you as an Israeli citizen being in any way objective? Your voice deserves to be heard but all you're doing is saying that Gaza/Hamas = bad and Israel = good in that post.

That doesn't make sense, those numbers are from after the offensive started, not before. Of course you don't "have to wait until you have 100 dead", that's not what I was saying and it has nothing to do with those numbers.

I am super objective.
Just let me understand your logic, you really believe that a country in Europe, N.America or Asia, will accept rockets attack for 8 years without taking major actions against it?
Look what Russia did in Georgia, they fucking wiped out villages in few weeks.
In Africa there are thousands of dead every month because of wars between countries and factions (Muslims, funnily), and no body scream about it like now, when we kill mostly terrorists (we took 200+ of them in the first day). When we protect ourselves after 8 years of rocket shelling, how can you say we ARE the bad ones? Even Egypt knows how Hamas is shit, and they are Arabs.

Those numbers are after the Israeli operation. Those rockets were falling since 2000, and Israelis died and were injured by them. Israel left Gaza in 2006, every piece of land of Gaza strip. Whole families left their homes, and what we get back? rockets shelling and attacks on our border.
Maybe if they are so poor and hungry, they should stop making those rockets and train militants terrorists, and instead take care of their people who they claim are hungry and sick. They are supported with billions of dollars from Europe and Arab nations, and in some unbelieveable way, it never reach to the people in the street.

[FarScape]

I gtg so ill just sum the situation.

When your home is being attack, you will do everything to protect it by force when all other means fail.
byebye

[Nycle]

I am super objective.
Just let me understand your logic, you really believe that a country in Europe, N.America or Asia, will accept rockets attack for 8 years without taking major actions against it?
Look what Russia did in Georgia, they fucking wiped out villages in few weeks.

This is not my logic, this is what you make of it yourself. Cite any of my posts that imply this logic, because I don't remember saying Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, although I do think this way of defense is out of proportion and will not lead to a solution. If anything, it could make things worse.

In Africa there are thousands of dead every month because of wars between countries and factions (Muslims, funnily), and no body scream about it like now, when we kill mostly terrorists (we took 200+ of them in the first day).

Indeed, the situation in Africa is much worse and I have thought about this as well. Agreed, it's absolutely hypocritical of us all to ignore it in light of this "marginal" conflict but I decided not to take it to the forums because that's a whole different subject.

So Israel took out 200+ terrorists in the first day, I see. And how did they confirm that these 200 people dead were in fact terrorists in the mere few days that followed? Or are they just confirmed terrorists because the government/media say so? Did the media also say that among those 500+ dead so far there are over 100 children? Are 100 children really worth the sacrifice of 200+ allegedly dead terrorists?

When we protect ourselves after 8 years of rocket shelling, how can you say we ARE the bad ones? Even Egypt knows how Hamas is shit, and they are Arabs.

Again, when did I say you were the "bad ones"? You're mistaking me for a pro-Hamas person, when I explicitly tried to tell that I'm absolutely not taking sides.

[Displaced]

So you're trying to tell me with a straight face that Israel pulled out ALL of their personnel from Gaza in 2006? You and I both know this isn't exactly true, and I will retort with a ROFL.

As for starving + need for humanitarian aid, it isn't a "lie" as you so elequently put it, people are actually starving to death, and are not recieving proper medical care.

You mentioned the tunnels from gaza to egypt, yes there are/were tunnels, but you conveniently forgot to mention that on day one, Israel bombed the shit out of the gaza tunnel network, it is now almost impossible to get aid to gaza via these tunnels.

You also forgot to mention that Egyptian aid has not been allowed into gaza by the Israelis, citing that gaza is a quarantined war zone, hell Israel wouldn't even allow the red cross into gaza to deliver aid until a few days ago.

PLEASE don't misunderstand this, I'm not taking sides here, but I don't see Israel as a victim, they are also responsible for their own agression in this matter.

[404 Not Found]

Perhaps the Gaza area needs to be overtaken by a multi-national force that would occupy the land as a police presence with more allowances to control and use force for a set time period, unlike what the bullshit U.N. observers do by turning their heads daily to any problem.

In the time that Gaza has been under complete Hamas rule, post Fatah overtaking and killing spree, what have they done for the people they supposedly represent? The only thing that comes to mind is that they obtained rockets with longer ranges to increase more destruction in Israel.

Back to an international police force in Gaza, if this would happen, then Hamas, if they really want to govern and be the government for the people would have a chance to show it rather than incite violence as the cure all answer. Next time a group fires rockets across the border, these individuals should be publicly dealt with and not praised.

Remember when Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin was killed on the verge of Peace between these warring factions? ...it was not by a Palestinian, but rather an Israeli. Both sides have these orthodox extremist whack jobs that do not see the world as we do in this forum and outside in real life. They see things as black and white in what the scriptures, scrolls and religious leadership dictates to them. These extremists are the problem in all areas of the world and its governments seeking to bring us all back to the biblical times.

On a side note, Jerusalem should become a state in its own, similar to how the Vatican City is run. It should be independent and have its own police and government made up of all religious factions that claim its origins from this city.

[Zerzera]

Again, when did I say you were the "bad ones"? You're mistaking me for a pro-Hamas person, when I explicitly tried to tell that I'm absolutely not taking sides.

Trying to compare Israelis with Palestinians, or any other people, is Antisemitism. I urge you to discontinue your terrorist plead.

[Displaced]

interesting point 404, an autonomous Jerusalem could be an interesting solution, but I ultimately don't think it would end the unrest, this is buried too far in the psyche of the people.

As for some 3rd party police to take over the Gaza area, again and interesting solution, but who would undertake the task? UN peacekeepers? I just don't think its feasible, even if it could be a good way to have some kind of "unbiased" policing of the area.

edit: apparently Israeli tanks just fired on a UN safehouse, killing around 40ppl. This sort of thing is one of the many reasons why finding a 3rd party to police the gaza area would be very hard, casualties would be high and inflicted by both sides...

[R1pp3r]

Something I don't get is how Hamas are constantly being labeled as terrorists by Israel (and the rest of the world) even after what is happening in Gaza. Isn't that hypocrisy if anything? Yes sure, Hamas managed to kill 5 Israelis with their rockets. Well how many people would have died if Israel celebrated New Year’s Eve? Hamas rockets seem less intimidating than the rockets of most New Years Eve celebrations and yet they are the terrorists. The people of Israel must be trembling in great fear

Israel on the other hand manage to bomb Gaza to kingdom come and slaughter 550+ Palestinians and 100+ of them being children, cuts humanitarian aid and even attack ambulances, and the list can go on. I’m sure the people in Gaza are terrified by Israel. Yet Israel is the victim that now is defending their citizen against terror. I mean seriously what’s up! I think I’ll change my definition of a terrorist soon to something like a person living in fear.

Hmm just checked the news and there are now 630 Palestinians killed. Israel just attacked a school and killed another 40 people.

[404 Not Found]

I think that the U.N. has become a somewhat useless organization in today’s world. The intentions of the U.N. are worthy and should be a blueprint as to what the job of the U.N. was to have upon our distressed and oppressed countries; be it famine or war. I just do not see the U.N. having a substantial impact in many of the problems we see in our daily life.

When there are so many countries that need the U.N.'s help and unfortunately they do not get this and if they do it is limited, how can such an organization be respected and expected to carry out any role intended as their responsibility?

U.N. resolutions usually are ignored or are filibustered by this or that country to make a unanimous decision on fixing problems world wide not probable.

When the seated countries to the U.N. have their governments decide what the embassadors to the UN say and do in regards to what's best for corporate interest and trade over the rites and health of peoples and lands of which has become a haven for misconduct and war, then the U.N. will remain useless.

[404 Not Found]

Hamas rockets seem less intimidating than the rockets of most New Years Eve celebrations and yet they are the terrorists. The people of Israel must be trembling in great fear.

Hamas fired 60 rockets at Israel today -- another bombardment in an aerial assault that's totaled 6,300 rockets and mortars since Israeli forces left the Gaza Strip in August, 2005. But today's weapons were different. These weren't short-range, home-made Qassam rockets that make up the bulk of Hamas' arsenal. Nor were they the longer-flying 122 mm Grad rockets, designed by the Soviets and made in Iran. Some of today's rockets flew an alarming 22 miles, hitting an empty school house in Beersheva, the unofficial capital of the Negev Desert region. And they were made in China.

The rocket measures about 2.9 meters (depending on type and range) and weighs 61-74 kg. According to [the] Sinodefence website, unlike the ubiquitous Grad, these Chinese rockets are using both fin and spin stabilization to achieve high accuracy and low dispersion of multiple rockets groups. Unlike the Grad, which uses a fixed amount of propellant and warhead, designed for maximum range of 20 km, the Chinese rocket uses a modular design, where some of the payload can be exchanged for propellant.

...The standard high explosive (RDX-based) warhead can be enhanced with the ZDB-2 blast fragmentation warhead, comprising high explosive charge, containing reduced RDX-based explosive charge, over 4,000 steel ball matrix liner and prefabricated fragmentation sheath, extending lethal effect over a radius of about 100 meters. A thermobaric warhead is also available, comprising of a 17kg warhead containing 6.2 kg of energetic composition and 1,500 steel balls for dual-purpose effect optimized for urban warfare, and the SZB-1 anti-personnel and anti-armor mines containing submunitions for area denial attack.

The Israel military says that these Chinese rockets not only fly twice as far as the Grads, and four times further than the Qassams. They can "potentially cause much greater damage," too -- with "metal pallets that can spread out across a radius of up to 100 meters from the point of impact," according to YnetNews.

Israeli officials didn't specify which model of Chinese rocket is being used. But it's "most likely the Chinese WS-1E 122mm rocket," the well-sourced Defense Update notes. "These artillery rocket systems are employed by the People's Republic of China Army and were widely exported to third world countries."

I am curious as to what type of rockets are fired at your New Years celebrations?

And hence, this is when I noted in an earlier post:

The World should step in and disarm both sides; but that can't happen, part of the economy is hinged on selling arms to the world. We thrive as a population in the killing and exploiting of hatred at others. We have movies and books that are targeted to populations; video games gloryfying such things. Is it any surprise to anyone that this continues?

[MetalHeadz]

nuke

yea, nuke a country with nuclear weapons. Good strategy

My thoughts:

Short Term

-Invasion is unlikely given America's support for Israel
-America's support for Israel is justified by the militancy of Hamas
-Hamas need to stop aggrovating Israel and stop firing rockets into their territory, there's no way they can 'win' that way - Israel is much the stronger power
-Hamas need to realise that in order to gain international support for their grievances they need to respond to Israeli occupation in a peaceful way
-If Hamas do exclude militant factions of it's party, America will be left unable to justify their current position and will be isolated if they do maintain it.
-International community should use military force if Israeli army does not leave Gaza

Long Term

- Give each state independent, sovereign rule of itself
- Give each state a place and veto on the UN council
- Apply sanctions/diplomatic pressure/military force to either state if they do not co-operate.

[gran guerrero]

[R1pp3r]

I am curious as to what type of rockets are fired at your New Years celebrations?

Well, I live in Sweden and there are always a few people who are hit and killed by the tiny rockets that are launched a few minutes around midnight. Yes, Hamas have weapons bigger than those rockets but unfortunately aren't killing more people and in comparison to Israel's weapons they are like firecrackers. Hamas might be terrorists but again in comparison to Israel they don’t look all that bad.

Metalheadz's long term solutions are the most reasonable but sadly not achievable with the US meddling.

[Scoop]

yea, nuke a country with nuclear weapons. Good strategy

My thoughts:

Short Term

-Invasion is unlikely given America's support for Israel
-America's support for Israel is justified by the militancy of Hamas
-Hamas need to stop aggrovating Israel and stop firing rockets into their territory, there's no way they can 'win' that way - Israel is much the stronger power
-Hamas need to realise that in order to gain international support for their grievances they need to respond to Israeli occupation in a peaceful way
-If Hamas do exclude militant factions of it's party, America will be left unable to justify their current position and will be isolated if they do maintain it.
-International community should use military force if Israeli army does not leave Gaza

Long Term

- Give each state independent, sovereign rule of itself
- Give each state a place and veto on the UN council
- Apply sanctions/diplomatic pressure/military force to either state if they do not co-operate.

Good strategy. I'm sure the UN is going to give a position to terrorists.

[DankNuggets]

don't have time to catch up on this thread atm, so i'll just post this and come back to it.



http://www.aksalser.com/game.htm