Hamas and Israel

[404 Not Found]

If people worried about civilian casualties during WWII as we do today, all of Europe would be part of Germany.

It's a f'n war and people die...especially civilians!! Get over it. If they didn't want to be in the way of this, perhaps they should have chose somewhere else to live or elected a government that worked for its peoples behalf in seeking peace and not based on a religious belief from scriptures 1000's or years old with no factual backing...can't forget the elected government making women and children be human shields to save their cowardly asses.

Personally I don't care...we can see from watching & reading the world news of how the antisemitism is on the rise in Western Europe & even in Sweden! I guess the tolerance to religious and racial hatreds and predjudices are being released once again. One week it's against the muslims, next the jews.

Will history repeat itself again in Europe?

[FarScape]

Civilians shouldn't die actually. but here we fight against a terror group that hide themselves between kids and women, and fire from schools.
In many buildings in Gaza, Hamas dug tunnels and fill it with explosive devices, so it will harm our soldiers. They knew the rockets will force us in and they prepared for that moment. Gladly, our army is efficient.

The other option is to let them keep firing and risking our lives, because we wont want to accidentally kill civilians right?
Well, our security is first priority. Their civilians can only complain to the terror group they chose to lead them into oblivion.

[Vatican Assassin]

Enter Wikipedia and read about Hamas, what they are believe in, what they teach the children of Gaza and what they want to do with us and ultimately their goal.

The UN and the world should then enter with massive forces and start supporting and educate the children and the people for peace and not for hatred.

Israeli kids are taught realistic, conservative "tough love."

Hey 404 Not Found, I'm afraid your statement "they should choose to live somewhere else" displays the most evident lack of historical reference by anyone on this entire thread. I think even farscape knows that Palestinians have no choice about leaving the Gaza Strip, no other Arab nations will allow Palestinians to join them, certainly Israel doesn't want them. Hamas is in the wrong to be sure, but blaming the poor civilians forced to live in the world's largest prison camp is sad. If you want to know more read this, perhaps.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nonie-...p_b_91800.html

[404 Not Found]

Hey 404 Not Found, I'm afraid your statement "they should choose to live somewhere else" displays the most evident lack of historical reference by anyone on this entire thread. I think even farscape knows that Palestinians have no choice about leaving the Gaza Strip, no other Arab nations will allow Palestinians to join them, certainly Israel doesn't want them. Hamas is in the wrong to be sure, but blaming the poor civilians forced to live in the world's largest prison camp is sad. If you want to know more read this, perhaps.

Sarcasm VA...really that's all that was. But honestly, after all these years, decades and such...even after Arafat was found to have stolen so much money for the peoples for the so called cause of the PLO, only to find he was shacked up in France with his wife from the U.S. away from the Palestinian citizens and decay of the land they lived on...The representative of his peoples...reminds me of Union leaders, anyway...I personally do not care. How many decades have the neighboring countries that speak in behalf of the Palestinians fall short of stepping in and helping? Again...I really do not care anymore. It's all redundant.

What shocks me the most are the outbursts of antisemitism across Western Europe towards both Jews and Muslims. What outside race or religion will it be next? But Europe will have its hands full in dealing with Russia cutting off the Natural Gas as a next issue.

To sum it up, I am very well aware of the peoples having no place to go, of which makes me wonder why they don't just stop the fighting and make good of the land they have NOW and not from the past, and move the hell on with life. having a cease fire and using it to embolden your arsenal of weapons over the feeding and rebuilding of a country and its infrastructure is a crime in itself to the Palestinians of who so many worry about, but if that was the case, why did so few countries come to their aid and help rebuild Gaza during the cease fire when the Israelis supposedly cut them off? They had waterways and humanitairan efforts had not been blocked...so why so little help from it's neighbors and fellow islamic countries? UAE can spend trillions on hotels and fake islands with more hotels and golf courses...but they really didn't jump in to help. I am sure that more help is coming from around the world to re-build Lebanon than to help the Palestinians in Gaza for the past few years.

It's a f'n joke...and if you have a cease fire without any international mediators on the ground for decades to come, you will only see Hamas ignore the destruction and once again seek to put all efforts into destroying Isreal and the jews...next the U.S. and any Western country they do not see eye to eye with.

[Nycle]

Sarcasm VA...really that's all that was. But honestly, after all these years, decades and such...even after Arafat was found to have stolen so much money for the peoples for the so called cause of the PLO, only to find he was shacked up in France with his wife from the U.S. away from the Palestinian citizens and decay of the land they lived on...The representative of his peoples...reminds me of Union leaders, anyway...I personally do not care. How many decades have the neighboring countries that speak in behalf of the Palestinians fall short of stepping in and helping? Again...I really do not care anymore. It's all redundant.

Sarcasm? How can you play the sarcasm card on that one? Geez, for a minute there I thought you were serious until you cleared it up and now I'm just left with a sad feeling realizing how bitter a person can be when it comes to these kinds of subjects. And why do you put Arafat forward as an example of why you don't care anymore? If he's done bad then fuck him, the priorities still lie with the Palestinian _people_ rather than one supposedly representative leader.

What shocks me the most are the outbursts of antisemitism across Western Europe towards both Jews and Muslims. What outside race or religion will it be next? But Europe will have its hands full in dealing with Russia cutting off the Natural Gas as a next issue.

As a resident of Western-Europe I think you're really overstating the situation here, especially in comparison with the conflict we're discussing now. These "anti-semitic outbursts" you speak of, they happen, but it's no different from xenophobic actions against other minorities. It is in no way growing out to be a mass-hysteric movement against anyone that's different. I find the question of "Will history repeat itself in Europe?" therefore extremely inappropriate.

Same goes for the Islam, indeed Europe has seen an influx of Arab immigrants and in my own country out of 16 million inhabitants 1 million are muslim alone. As far as my perception goes, the trend of these people is that they are actually gradually integrating and assimilating into society while shunning all conservative elements of their previous generations, especially from the 2nd generation (children of the first immigrants) onward. I have no doubt this puts us in a better position of mutual understanding in the Western-Arab dialogue than other regions.

As for the gas, that seems like something totally off-topic from the previous subject and only demonstrates that you don't quite see the true situation here if you throw gas-supplies and ethnic/religious conflicts on the same "list of priorities".

[404 Not Found]

It's a f'n joke...and if you have a cease fire without any international mediators on the ground for decades to come, you will only see Hamas ignore the destruction and once again seek to put all efforts into destroying Isreal and the jews...next the U.S. and any Western country they do not see eye to eye with.

Wow...never quoted myself, but after writing this, I read that there may be a peace deal-cease fire that was organized by Egypt & France. Isreal and the Abbas /Fattah side seem to be ok with everything and want to stop the fighting, but Hamas seems to have no interest.

Osama Hamdan, a Hamas representative in Lebanon close to the group's leadership in Syria, told al-Jazeera television that Hamas will not accept any initiative that does not include the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza and the opening of all of the territory's border crossings.

"Any proposal that does not include these bases is unacceptable and no one should bother by presenting such proposals," he said.

"The idea of an international force is rejected and such forces which will come to Gaza to protect Israel will be dealt with as enemy forces," he said.

Hamas is a joke of what some call leadership, which any peoples under such hardship would or should rely on. It would seem that Hamas doesn't care and wants only martyrdom for the entire population of Gaza. They themselves in Hamas will typically run after all are gone so they can fight another day as the casualties of innocent peoples increase and are used as shields.

BTW...the sarcasm came from an old comedy routine done by, now dead, Sam Kinison. Just as a post previous to that when I state the Spanish Inquisition that this was taken from Monty Python. Humor may have no place, but on certain items, it just came to mind.

I have been around too many years to see the bullshit between Israel and the Palestinians for too many decades...I have less road in front of me than I do behind, so I really see no end to the problem if Hamas seeks only the total annihilation of a people, religion and country. The Palestinian peoples may want peace, but the democratic leadership they installed will never settle for this!

Most likely we will see this happen again between Israel and the Palestinians in the next 10 - 15 years, over the same issues again.

The way the news portrayed the Euro Wide incidents in the past few days leads me to think otherwise. lets just face it, hatred and racial/ethnic crimes will always continue past our lifetimes, due to the inherit ignorance of the species of to which we are.

All I would like is to see peace, but come on...we'd be dreaming if we all thought that.

[Leaf]

Jesus christ. Couldn't keep reading this manipulative rant after page one. Not surprising to see the capitalistic "fight fire against fire" supporting Israel by full force without seeing two sides of it. I can't support either of the sides because they're both doing horrid things which aren't justifiable whatsoever.

But to see some people comment about just wiping Hamas out like of some guy from a Texas-stereotypical movie is just sad.
I don't even want to go in to the whole world police thing where USA has killed freaking millions of innocent people and still see it as justified actions for the greater good.

[Lucon]

I am super objective.

Lol

I say we let Ishmael and Frankenstein settle this whole thing in a cage match, winner-take-all.

[DankNuggets]

But to see some people comment about just wiping Hamas out like of some guy from a Texas-stereotypical movie is just sad.
I don't even want to go in to the whole world police thing where USA has killed freaking millions of innocent people and still see it as justified actions for the greater good.

You see comments from people about wiping out Hamas because 1) they don't know enough about it and 2) historically, that's how you end a war, by causing such massive losses that one side gives up. eradicating hamas would accomplish this, even if it is utterly unhuman.

Don't go into the "world police" because NO ONE wants to go live in teh fucking desert for 18 months and get shot at. Well I take that back, there are people already living there... but we surely don't want to be there.

Show me one major country that hasn't killed millions of innocent people. I'll be willing to bet they are either 1)isolated to fuck, like say iceland, 2) they're under the protection of the US and our allies (most newly formed western nations).

And by killing millions of people, we have paved the way for hundreds of millions to live free. I don't like it, but lucky for me, my forefathers did. Or else we'd be worried about shit constantly. The only difference is that we don't kill millions within our own borders, which is why the world gets up-in-arms over it. Also, because they can talk all the shit they want against the US, and we won't do anything about it. I believe the US is willing to let basically any threats bounce off it's chest, where as other nations aren't so lucky to be able to do so.

[Epinephrine]

Actually, the Zionist movement didn't think at first about a land. The "unfairly treated" that you speak of, is about killing and pogrom of Jewish people in eastern Europe. Just a little fact that you forgot.

Being killed is being unfairly treated is it no? I don't think I forgot anything.

Again, a bit out of context.. After Kishinev pogrom, Herzl brought up the Uganda program that was given by the british. It was charter in the area that today is near kenya, and it was only temporary safe house for Jewish people from Europe, and a point where to establish Israel as a state in the land of Israel. That's how Theodor Herzl saw the things. The Zionist didn't accept it because in fact, the Jewish roots are related to the land of Israel, not Africa, and didn't want that way.
next.

It's totally within context. Actually it matters, because if the Zionist movement took Uganda as a new homeland, they would have satisfied a few conditions:
1) Gotten away from being treated badly in Europe
2) Had a homeland to call their own
3) Had a place mostly uninhabited except by random African tribes which would have never mounted any serious opposition to them being there.

We shall explore this further later in the post...

You forgot the masses of Arabs that emigrated in the Ottoman rule (130% increase). Jews emigrated because of those killings and anti-Semitic. Also, there was large Arab emigration during the British mandate... (they doubled their number in Israel in that time, now calling themselves of course, Palestinians.)
You also forgot that the British recognized the Zionists as the Jewish nationality movement in 1903, it was before Balfour declaration, and your saying that the declaration was to weak the Arab control is false (Arabs didn't control nothing here). It was given by the British government after Haim Weizman with the Zionist movement, asked for recognition that Israel is belong to the Jewish people. The declaration itself was very limited from what they asked, but it did say that we deserve "national home" on that land.

You're using the same word 'emigrated' to mean BOTH immigrated and emigrated, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Regardless, before the Zionist movement decided to wholeheartedly support moving people to Israel, the area was populated by a VAST MAJORITY of arabs, something like 90%. At the time right before the founding of Israel there were still MORE Arabs than Jews living in that area. Now there are VASTLY MORE Jews than Arabs living there. I think these are important facts to consider.

True. But it was because the extreme limitation that was put on Jewish emigrates after the WW2. People where stuck in the sea and couldn't come to the "national home" that was promised. Not all the Jewish organizations that were here supported this, and from what I know, the attacks were concentrated on the British military, not against civilians (compared to terrorism today?)

Well not all the Palestinian organizations or people support Hamas either or terror acts against Israel. So you're saying terror attacks by Jewish organizations in British-administered Palestine was justified but attacks against Israel are not right? Also there weren't exactly British civilian targets to hit in the Middle East, and I could not see Jewish groups travelling all the way to the UK to conduct terror missions in the 1940s.

No shit, Arabs had nations who already were sitting in the UN. Jews got only death. You also forgot to mention that there were 700,000-800,000 Jewish refugees who were forced to leave their homes or got pogrom in the Arab nations, from Asia to North Africa. Finally the Jewish people can have safe home after all the suffering to flee into, and fight for the right to live in a small land that was divided into two states.
It still a fact that most of the Arabs that were in Israel, were not descended but emigrate both in ottoman and British rule.

A larger percentage of the Jews living in the area moved in after British rule than compared to the Arabs, so using your moral calculus, the Jews have even a LESS claim to it all. Also, you contradict yourself. While Arab countries did sit in the UN, it's obvious to ANYONE that they opposed the creation of Israel. But it was still mandated by the UN anyway. Why is this? Because the UN was controlled at the onset by the European powers who felt bad that they allowed the Holocaust to happen and felt they had to do something. True China was one of the founding members, but a Chinese Nationalist government completely aided by America in the Chinese civil war, doesn't count.

1) The UN voted for Israel to be existed. saying "major Jewish terrorist" is just demagogy. The large and calm group was mostly the one who declared Israel and was the first government (it was Hagana, not Hezel, and I have no power to dig about it).

Seeing enemies on all sides, all Jewish groups decided to ban together, and the day before the official partition (which was great power created, not actually agreed upon by people who lived there mind you) declared the State of Israel. America recognize the country immediately, due to pressures from a very large and powerful lobbying campaign by American Jews.

2) Surrounding Arab countries didn't want Israel, and saw an opportunity to destroy it as we were weak. Nothing about vaccum and other bullshit.

Surrounding Arab countries never supported the creation of Israel. It was thrust upon them. None of them wanted it from the start. Israel was just as artificial a construct as any of the other Arab states carved out of the Ottoman empire such as Iraq, TransJordan and so on. If you'll note, there's a lot of problems between Arab states as well, and within them because of the artificalness of their states. Yet still, each of these newly created Arab states had ambitious people, who seeing Britain finally withdrawing from the place, saw a power vacumn. Face it, Israel wasn't a 'real' country just yet even if America recognized it. In their eyes, everything was up for the taking, which was similar to the views of the Jews in the area when they declared the state of Israel a day early.

3) You should check your sources. The Arabs had superiority in weapons, and only after we had deal with Czechoslovakia (Soviets? :-P), and some smuggling from United State and other sources, we destroyed the Arabs and won the war. Go back reading =]

I don't see where I'm wrong. The Jewish forces were obviously superior as they WON THE WAR. They were also supported by the Americans as you agree yourself.

4) We didn't do campaign to make the Arabs flee. Most of them did it by the calling of he Arabs, so they could return safely after we would have been destroyed. Some fled by themselves. I am not saying that there wasn't some places that people were forced to leave, but saying that Israel had campaign to do so, is just a total lie. If it was true, there wasn't 20% Arabs in Israel today.

The ENTIRE POINT of the formation of Israel was to have a country which would be run by Jews for Jews as a place for Jews all around the world to move in. I cannot possibly see how such a campaign would not entail making Arabs flee, considering the area right before the day Israel was declared was MAJORITY ARAB. Unless a system of apartheid was considered, I cannot see how a newly moved in first generation immigrant minority would hope to rule over an entrenched majority. Obviously the terms of this was created as such that Arabs would have to flee or else they'd have no where to go.

As well, the idea of creating Israel was still persued even with the knowledge of:
1) It was majority populated by Arabs
2) The Arabs that lived there did not want to live, nor did they want to live under Jewish rule
3) The Arabs in surrounding countries didn't want the Jews to be there either
4) Virtually guaranteed that there would be lots of bloodshed before things would ever be sorted out

Aside from emotional/religious considerations, Uganda was by far a better choice in all respects. Of course religion is a powerful force I do admit.

To bad. They call them "brothers" but cant accept them. History shown that nobody accepted us. Jews were killed everywhere because they were Jews, not because they harmed anyone. 700-800K Jewish people from Arabs countries, can not return to their homes and wont get any loss that was left behind when they were forced to flee.

I have to agree it's too bad myself. If they wouldn't have been kept permamently into refugees, then a lot of the problems today wouldn't have existed. But I don't really support the Arabs or the Jews, I'm just stating the facts.

Israel from the first day, declared that it want peace with her Arab neighbors. Egypt, after failing in wars against us, was the first, and important nation, to sign a peace treaty with us. A peace that Israel respect fully, even tho their president doesn't want to come here.

Of course Israel wants peace with it's neighbours. It cannot fight a continuous war against a far larger enemy indefinately. That's just common sense. But to portray the entire formation of Israel as wholly just, and Israel as some sort of unfair victim in all of this is extremely naive.

Israel was formed because great powers felt bad about what they had done to the Jews, and also wanted a way to get Jews out of their country in the most humane way possible. Jews wanted a homeland that they had 1500 years ago back, even though they hadn't really been the majority there for that long. So the only way you can displace an entrenched majority that had been living there for 1500 years is by military means. Since Jews had no power themselves, just immigrating there would not had been enough. They also managed to lobby western governments which felt bad about how Jews had been treated into having the League of Nations and then the UN recognize a Jewish state.

It didn't matter at all, that this was completely and wholly thrust upon the actual inhabitants of the area without their consent or will, because when great powers want something done, they do it as they have all the power.

Seeing it even more cynically, having Israel in the area as a target, also made it easier for great powers to exploit individual countries in the area as they would not be the target, Israel would, and exploit they did for many years after the formation of Israel.

The entire creation of Israel presupposed that it would be a Jewish run state for the Jews. This completely ran against the original area which was an Arab run area populated by a vast majority of Arabs. But through an efficient immigration campaign, and a very well organized military campaign, the Jews were able to carve out a land of their own.

But to be expected to be not hated by everyone in that area for what they did, irregardless of religion (although religion does make it easier to hate I have to agree) is naive. And to expect the rest of the world to really have any sympathy for it all is also a bit naive.

I have nothing against individual Israelis, or Jewish people or Muslims, or even anything against Israel. Nor do I personally really care about the area as I have no real person stake on it. I'm just stating the facts, and letting you know why people around the world really don't support Israel all that much, and don't see it's cause as just as you think it is.

Why does the media care so much about 300 Palestinians dying but not 5 million Congoese dying in the largest war the in the world since World War II? I think we have our priorities messed up.

[Vatican Assassin]

Don't you guys hate it when people dissect each other's posts line by excruciating line?

[RednaZ]

not when done right, no

[Vatican Assassin]

not when done right, no

Right on, but if you would just agree with me next time it would make me feel a lot better about myself.

[FarScape]

Israeli kids are taught realistic, conservative "tough love."

Hey 404 Not Found, I'm afraid your statement "they should choose to live somewhere else" displays the most evident lack of historical reference by anyone on this entire thread. I think even farscape knows that Palestinians have no choice about leaving the Gaza Strip, no other Arab nations will allow Palestinians to join them, certainly Israel doesn't want them. Hamas is in the wrong to be sure, but blaming the poor civilians forced to live in the world's largest prison camp is sad. If you want to know more read this, perhaps.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nonie-...p_b_91800.html

Those kids send their regards to Hezbollah, after their homes got bombed in the last Lebanon war. A war that started with Hezbollah attacking Israel and kidnapping two soldiers.
Got another Demagogue shits to post here?

[genocidal]

It's funny that FarScape thinks that he is so right with regard to this whole mess.