Hamas and Israel

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Wrong.

The U.S. is funding Israel's attack on the Palestinians, they are no longer attacking Hamas. 40% of casualties are women and children. That is for 3 hamas members killed 2 women or children are killed. What the fuck is that? Olmert is lobbying in U.S. for more support so they can launch a 3rd phase to the offensive. This is nearly as bad as the Russians invading Georgia. What can the Palestinians do? They formed Hamas on their own, as a retaliation for the U.S. giving Israel all these weapons to take their lands back.

Anybody who wants this over and done with know that the U.S. needs to take its hands off israel, I believe Hamas would tremendously ease up if the israelis werent RPGing women and children.

Obama needs to have discussions with the Hamas founder(Batawi) and ask him serious questions, i.e. WHY are they bombing in the first place? If it is in retalation let the Israelis know, so what? Encourage them to ease up. Have Olmert and Batawi meet, and agree on a ceasefire. Enough of these U.S. drawn up ceasefires. (warning, TW analogy) It's like Vys being smod and creating rules/punishments for cheaters. What the Fuck is that?

I take it that you do not support the war in Iraq then? What the F do you think the US has been doing there. If you support that illegal war, then you have contradicted yourself...but then again your from Ohio...what would anyone expect.

[Liquid Blue]

And the award for the most ignorant-prolly asexual-i'm-a-dipshit-who-cares-about-anything-other-than-me person goes to.......

the above

Amazing how people like you can actually live in a modern society, then again, you could be one of those people who are bordering mentally retarded. I mean I haven't heard this much ignorance since ph's last post. I would not be suprised to find out you live in the TOWN OF ASKJ@KASF@@@ IN KOIKKELILIOKELIS, FINLAND.

guess who was being facetious

hint- it's not me or you

[Scoop]

lets take this time to ban paradise for a double post B)

[paradise!]

You call for the U.S. to get out and then say you want U.S. troops in????

Is it Iran that is sending the so-called rocks that they are throwing into Southern Israel? Damn nice rocks.

I don't want any U.S. troops involved in this. Let a country that is neutral to both sides go in...especially since the Arab nations hate the U.S.

[EDIT]: You know you get a lot more support from other nations when you have a product of export, such a agriculture or technologies. Having your number one export being a suicide bomber is not really in that much of demand. Is there absolutely no support from their so called fellow islamic nations, other than sending them parts for rockets to be smuggled into the country through tunnels? What about irrigation for farm lands? contractors to build hotels on the waterfront?

Wrong.

The U.S. is funding Israel's attack on the Palestinians, they are no longer attacking Hamas. 40% of casualties are women and children. That is for 3 hamas members killed 2 women or children are killed. What the fuck is that? Olmert is lobbying in U.S. for more support so they can launch a 3rd phase to the offensive. This is nearly as bad as the Russians invading Georgia. What can the Palestinians do? They formed Hamas on their own, as a retaliation for the U.S. giving Israel all these weapons to take their lands back.

Anybody who wants this over and done with know that the U.S. needs to take its hands off israel, I believe Hamas would tremendously ease up if the israelis werent RPGing women and children.

Obama needs to have discussions with the Hamas founder(Batawi) and ask him serious questions, i.e. WHY are they bombing in the first place? If it is in retalation let the Israelis know, so what? Encourage them to ease up. Have Olmert and Batawi meet, and agree on a ceasefire. Enough of these U.S. drawn up ceasefires. (warning, TW analogy) It's like Vys being smod and creating rules/punishments for cheaters. What the Fuck is that?

[paradise!]

Snore, someone win already so my newspapers will have some more interesting things in it. Who cares about a war in Africa anyway?

And the award for the most ignorant-prolly asexual-i'm-a-dipshit-who-cares-about-anything-other-than-me person goes to.......

the above

Amazing how people like you can actually live in a modern society, then again, you could be one of those people who are bordering mentally retarded. I mean I haven't heard this much ignorance since ph's last post. I would not be suprised to find out you live in the TOWN OF ASKJ@KASF@@@ IN KOIKKELILIOKELIS, FINLAND.

[Zerzera]

Why does it always have to be about the US, they got nothing to do with this. They can't even afford to intervene in that region.

And Cops, the Netherlands actually choose not to condemn Israel, so what the fuck are you talking about Nycles country condemning Israel and doing nothing? I thought you were studying journalism, you claim to be more objective, and then you bring up that subjective shit as arguments.
And we aren't aggressors, so we wouldn't just intervene unless Israel would stress us to. Like Epi said, unless there's no serious issues like extreme violence or genocide that needs to be addressed, there's no reason to intervene.
Besides, we all know that Israel wouldn't ask for our help, mainly because they are militarily superior in the region, they don't need our help. They are dealing with the issue themselves as of now, and I don't think they want any extra close eyes on Gaza right now.

[Nycle]

I portray the U.S as being a nation that has made huge mistakes, however they have done a lot of good. I was making a point that nations and people have openly downplayed the American public as stupid, arrogant, and idiotic. So no wonder the American public, and American politicians don't give a fuck what other countries are saying to them right now, people want this to end but they're unwilling to send troops to hold Israel back from Palestinians. The majority of Democrats and Republican senators have already backed Israel through this whole entire shit-show.

Then why are you saying America is sick of playing the world's super-cop? It's as if the US is merely doing this to keep other nations 'safe' or whatever, when the real reason behind it is because they feel like it's in their best interest as well. You don't have to make it look as if the rest of the world is 'using' the US purely out of laziness or whatever, when the US is choosing to do what they do themselves.

Obviously America's support of the west is crucial enough for us to be allowed to live in our free societies, but then again why would you ever want to recognize something that they did for you.

This is bullshit. I'd like to call myself one of the more pro-Americans even though I may not sound like that and I will recognize right now that the US has done a lot of good stuff, and my country would possibly not have been as free as it is today if it weren't for American (and in my country, Canadian as well) intervention during WW2. That, and a lot more. The thing is that all the good things are taken for granted and are easily 'forgotten' as such, it's a bitch but that's how it works, people will only stress the negative and wrong side. But don't think that people have completely forgotten about every good thing the US has done when they are, according to you, "downplaying the American public as stupid, arrogant, and idiotic."

If European countries want to get in the middle of this then they will, but like I said your country will most likely sit back and follow America's lead. European nations will condemn the actions of Israel but their action stops there.

It's so easy to put this in a perspective of the 'hypocritical' European nations who talk a lot but do nothing. But you seem to forget that no single European country is powerful enough to get anything done in practice. It's not because they're not willing enough, for practical reasons they just can't intervene simply because they lack the strength and unification that the US possesses. Added to that, Israel would never accept European military intervention whereas the ties between the US and Israel are extremely strong and Israel is far more likely to accept what the US would advise them. To sum it up, no one is asking the US to do anything and no one can oblige them to do so, but realistically they're the only one that can put a stop to this sooner rather than later if they wanted to. Just make sure you don't turn it into the direction of "see, the US has to do all the work again when everyone does nothing and sits by".

Oh and specifically for my country; they're talking in parliament about setting up an EU-sponsored police force in the Gaza strip. This plan will surely fail, but it's worth mentioning in response to your prediction of us sitting back and following the lead of the US. [Edit] Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/featur...s/idUKL7730370

[Zerzera]

Shut up Cops, Epi is more right than you.

[Epinephrine]

I think the point of all this is, who fired on who first? If we believe Hamas fired first, which is a very good possibility considering they are an islamic terrorist group who are taught to hate Isreal, then why would the more powerful nation not retaliate?

The problem is, it's not so easy to say who was first. Israel says Hamas started it, Hamas said Israel started it. In reality both sides are adding their own spin, and their own views into it, they may be both right from their own points of view. Really this is just a really big fight between the two groups, and it doens't help that the rest of the world butts into this. If Iran/Syria were not involved right now, and neither were the West, I would have a feeling that this would have been resolved faster. Everyone's using this conflict to further their own goals, which really is too bad.

[Epinephrine]

Really because that's not my preferred Canadian way to resolve this, and I'm pretty sure I was born in Canada. Anyone who thinks that both states can live as one in peace is fucking retarded. Why in the world would Israel open its doors to more terrorist attacks in their country? Israelis and Palestinians will never co-exist together, one will probably die first. Why bring the fighting into the streets of Israel when they can keep it outside? I don't know a single country who would risk the stability of their country by allowing people into their country who wish to do them harm.

I say 'Canadian' because Canada's way is dialogue and for people to get along (see Quebec). If you truly think that there's no way that they can ever co-exist, then I don't see how a two-state solution could work either, with the Palestinians being split into two by Israel on either side.

My highlighted 'Canadian' option, is merely a long-term goal. Obviously no one is 'fucking retarded' enough (to use your words) to suddenly open the borders right now, and sing kumbaya and so on. That would be ridiculous. But it would be a goal to work towards. At some point, whether there is a one-state or a two-state solution, both sides will have to work together, will have borders open to travel, and will accept eachother's existence. It would not do Israel good to close off the West Bank and Gaza for all time and never talk to these people again, and it would merely just be another pretext for an outright war in the future.

If we take what you say to be true, that never, ever, ever will the two sides ever live together (which also implies side-by-side unless you think they will just build an even bigger wall and never talk to eachother even though they are neighbors) the 'horrible' option is really the ONLY way. Personally I'm more optimistic than that.

I think this 'crisis', if you will has no end, thus why risk Canadian and American lives? Both camps want to shoot each others face off, so when the dusts settles and enough are dead maybe, maybe, they'll be prone to solve this diplomatically.

For now you can't force diplomacy on two countries who don't believe that it'll work. All you can do is use the UN, and American influence to tighten Israel's leash. But do I agree with putting foreign troops in the middle of this shit show? fuck no.

I dunno why you quoted me again, and then once again talked about intervention. I have not talked about intervention at all in this thread. STOP QUOTING ME and then talk about things that have nothing to do with what I've said.

[Cops]

Please don't portray the US being victimized into playing the world's super-cop, that's just not true. When was the last time the US ever listened to anyone on the area of foreign policy other than themselves? The truth is that the US has been one of the chief belligerents in any major war in the Middle-East in the past few decades, and with great power comes great responsibility and scrutiny. The Jewish lobby is big business in the US, so that's all the more reason for them to take action on this stage when no one else is willing or able to. But to portray that as somehow playing an unwilling super-cop for the rest of the "lazy/coward/undeveloped or whatever world" will only add to an arrogant view.

I portray the U.S as being a nation that has made huge mistakes, however they have done a lot of good. I was making a point that nations and people have openly downplayed the American public as stupid, arrogant, and idiotic. So no wonder the American public, and American politicians don't give a fuck what other countries are saying to them right now, people want this to end but they're unwilling to send troops to hold Israel back from Palestinians. The majority of Democrats and Republican senators have already backed Israel through this whole entire shit-show.

Obviously America's support of the west is crucial enough for us to be allowed to live in our free societies, but then again why would you ever want to recognize something that they did for you. If European countries want to get in the middle of this then they will, but like I said your country will most likely sit back and follow America's lead. European nations will condemn the actions of Israel but their action stops there.

The preferred 'Canadian' way for this to resolve is for the Palestinians to be allowed into the political process of Israel. By creating a ONE-STATE solution, where Palestinians are fully part of the political process. Obviously this will end the unique Jewishness of Israel, especially with demographics, and create a never ending political struggle of power between the two sides, but that would be preferable to fighting, and maybe some day an Arab administration of the state of Israel will recognize the 'distinct society' that the Jews represent or vice versa (depending on how demographics work out in the one-state solution). As a corollary to this, there would be no more squabbles to the 'right of return'. Because they are now one state, if Palestinians wanted to 'return' to their old homes, they would have to pay market rates for those homes. In the end money will talk, and people will accept that much more than force.

Really because that's not my preferred Canadian way to resolve this, and I'm pretty sure I was born in Canada. Anyone who thinks that both states can live as one in peace is fucking retarded. Why in the world would Israel open its doors to more terrorist attacks in their country? Israelis and Palestinians will never co-exist together, one will probably die first. Why bring the fighting into the streets of Israel when they can keep it outside? I don't know a single country who would risk the stability of their country by allowing people into their country who wish to do them harm.

Well you explicitly said that "I feel bad for the people of Gaza but some of you people forget that they elected Hamas, and they haven't been innocent in this whole fiasco", so I do think quite clearly that you're supporting one side. If not you would have mentioned, say that the Israelis have elected their governments for many years which have perused policies which have gotten many Palestinians mad at them in return.

I do feel bad for the people living in Gaza but I also understand Israel's frustrations. I think I can understand both sides pain, frustration, loss, and still not agree with either side. I think this 'crisis', if you will has no end, thus why risk Canadian and American lives? Both camps want to shoot each others face off, so when the dusts settles and enough are dead maybe, maybe, they'll be prone to solve this diplomatically.

For now you can't force diplomacy on two countries who don't believe that it'll work. All you can do is use the UN, and American influence to tighten Israel's leash. But do I agree with putting foreign troops in the middle of this shit show? fuck no.

By the way, I'm so pro Israel I'm for a cease-fire and countries to enter a period of discussion and negotiation (even if I think it won't work).

[Displaced]

Apparently Israel just bombed Egypt killing some civilians and destroying a few houses....

[Squeezer]

accept that in a few arguments, the 4 foot 90 pound man turns out to be chuck norris...is this what the argument is about?

accept it godamnit!

[Epinephrine]

that's not what I said, nor do I think that. That line of thinking is something I'm opposed to, but realistically it exists everywhere. I was making the point that Israel isn't the only one to blame in this situation.

Well you explicitly said that "I feel bad for the people of Gaza but some of you people forget that they elected Hamas, and they haven't been innocent in this whole fiasco", so I do think quite clearly that you're supporting one side. If not you would have mentioned, say that the Israelis have elected their governments for many years which have perused policies which have gotten many Palestinians mad at them in return.

Epinephrine: direct intervention won't work nor will America intervene directly with Israel, diplomacy and negotiation is how this issue will be solved. Obama's leash on Israel will be short, so as much as this is looking like a god awful situation it will get better, even if it's momentary. The bureaucracy of the UN is only going to bog this issue down and force the countries to sign another half-ass peace treaty. Maybe I'm pessimistic about this issue, but realistically it's not going to be solved anytime soon.

Not sure why you directed this at me, because I never proposed any solutions or talked about direct intervention. Personally I think that this issue has gone on for 100 years, and it's not about to stop anytime soon.

The 'best' way for issues like this to resolve is usually the most horrific way possible, by having an all out bloody war where one side definitely wins over the other. While it's obviously horrific with all of the casualties, by having a very clear military victor (essentially wiping out the other side), then the conflict will stop. To prove this, you never see Aztec terrorists in Mexico anymore do you?

The world's 'fashionable' way for this to be resolved is the 'two state solution'. This is in my opinion a bit of a cop out. Why? Because neither side will in the forseeable future ever accept a partitioning of Jerusalem. As well, how can you have two states when the Palestinian side is actually cut into two, and you need to cross through Israel to get to the other half? In effect, while theoretically good, the two-state solution ends up prolonging the conflict because it's so hard to achieve, that it's much easier to continue with the status quo.

The preferred 'Canadian' way for this to resolve is for the Palestinians to be allowed into the political process of Israel. By creating a ONE-STATE solution, where Palestinians are fully part of the political process. Obviously this will end the unique Jewishness of Israel, especially with demographics, and create a never ending political struggle of power between the two sides, but that would be preferable to fighting, and maybe some day an Arab administration of the state of Israel will recognize the 'distinct society' that the Jews represent or vice versa (depending on how demographics work out in the one-state solution). As a corollary to this, there would be no more squabbles to the 'right of return'. Because they are now one state, if Palestinians wanted to 'return' to their old homes, they would have to pay market rates for those homes. In the end money will talk, and people will accept that much more than force.

[royCE]

Interesting point Rednaz and yeah cops was trying to justify Israel in the same matter. Although why would the giant just kill all those small fellows. Maybe he’s not that psychotic. Perhaps the little 4 foot 90 pound guy punched the giant in the back of the head and then ran to hide in his midget village. The poor giant then proceeded and went to the village to find the evil little 4 foot 90 pound guy but then he noticed they were all around 4 foot and 90 pounds. In his just cause to find the perpetrator he then started to kill the inhabitants and stomp on their houses.

accept that in a few arguments, the 4 foot 90 pound man turns out to be chuck norris...is this what the argument is about?