Muslim Demographics

[Galaxy Turbo]

Seems like a rather extreme misinterpretation to call western women "uncovered pieces of meat".

It's not that it was an extreme misinterpretation, it was a small interpretation blown out of proportion. There's a large difference there. The covering of women in Islam is a different argument, if you want to talk about it maybe another time, but we'll stick to this debate for now.

These are experts of the Quran who devote their lives to studying it. To make such statements in public, and on the behalf of Islam, they must have had some degree of influence from the Islamic texts.
Making such provocative statements does nothing but incite religious segregation and suggest Islam views the West, and alternative religions, as their enemy whom they want conflict.

Muslims aren't looking for conflict, they have enough of this already. I can't possibly speak for the Muslims who currently live in the Middle East, but I can imagine that they feel victimised due to the "war on terror" and they are under attack. Imams (particularly those with greater power) may feel under attack by the west and feel the need to justify attacking the values of western culture. This is where the extremist motives are brewed, but that doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean Islam on a whole is a violent religion, nor does it advocate it. Unfortunately Islam has had bad luck in this front, and this is what is being predominantly captured in the media.

The fact that these muslim leaders keep their positions after making these accusations suggests the muslim community is atleast benign to such views.
I can guarantee if a mainstream Christian leader publicly stated that muslim women deserve to be raped and beaten, he would be quickly removed of his position and rebuked by the Christian community.

Now this I'd have to disagree with. Do you really feel that the muslims in the middle east have the power to overthrow such imams and higher authorities? With extremist groups taking over, there is lots of oppression and not much the people can do about it without third-party intervention, though this then has even more influence. It's really a vicious circle.

In this thread people have mentioned the atrocities commited by people who claimed to be Christian. If human nature can create such horrendous acts under the guise of a religion that completely condemns anykind of violent action, imagine the atrocities that can come from one that praises such actions under certain circumstances.

Good point, but this is your view on religion as a whole (from what I can read) and this is a whole new debate, which we won't get into now.

Muslim attitudes in Islamic nations are quite different, as the rape and murder statistics show. The laws in such countries are based on the Islamic faith and people are permitted to act in such horrific ways.
The vulgar attitude of Islamic society portrays the Muslim ideals in its uninhibited form.
The muslims who dont compromise their faith by living in a western society are bound by Allah to turn their western home into an Islamic state.
In the Quran there are only two kinds of nations:
Dar'al Islam - the nations which are Islamic
Dar'al Harb - the nations where infidels have not yet been subjugated to Islam.
It is a fundemental goal of Islam to conquer the non-Islamic nations.

If rape and murder statistics in the Middle East are high, you can't conclude that rape and murder is condoned there. It isn't because the people approve of it, this is just what's happening now as a result of a system currently in place.
Muslims are given the duty of spreading Islam by peaceful means, and it is no different to the spreading of "the good news" in the Bible. It shouldn't be seen as "conquering" because the goal isn't to claim a state, but muslims will see this as a goal once they believe they will achieve this.

[kthx]

Just like leaders of C(fixed)hristianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point? Just because other christian leaders doesn't condone it afterward doesn't make it good.

Comparing it just makes it look stupid aswell.

So by this logic school and education is also a bad thing because a minority of teachers end up having sex with their students.

Some pretty ignorant arguments, Tagmor pretty much destroys people when it comes to religions so.

[PaulOakenfold]

What do you call your shit? I call mine food babies...

[TagMor]

Just because they are labelled as leaders of the entire faith, it doesn't make them any less susceptible to misinterpretations in the Qu'ran than any other regular person

Seems like a rather extreme misinterpretation to call western women "uncovered pieces of meat".
These are experts of the Quran who devote their lives to studying it. To make such statements in public, and on the behalf of Islam, they must have had some degree of influence from the Islamic texts.
Making such provocative statements does nothing but incite religious segregation and suggest Islam views the West, and alternative religions, as their enemy whom they want conflict.
The fact that these muslim leaders keep their positions after making these accusations suggests the muslim community is atleast benign to such views.
I can guarantee if a mainstream Christian leader publicly stated that muslim women deserve to be raped and beaten, he would be quickly removed of his position and rebuked by the Christian community.

In this thread people have mentioned the atrocities commited by people who claimed to be Christian. If human nature can create such horrendous acts under the guise of a religion that completely condemns anykind of violent action, imagine the atrocities that can come from one that praises such actions under certain circumstances.

Speak to enough muslims and you will find that they are absolutist against rape, murder, and more.

I'm sure this is the case, atleast for muslims in western society.
Most muslims probably ignore the darker elements of their faith, and value the good, which is fine and I commend them. But this is likely due to living in a western society where our laws and social values deny such acts of rape and murder.
Muslim attitudes in Islamic nations are quite different, as the rape and murder statistics show. The laws in such countries are based on the Islamic faith and people are permitted to act in such horrific ways.
The vulgar attitude of Islamic society portrays the Muslim ideals in its uninhibited form.
The muslims who dont compromise their faith by living in a western society are bound by Allah to turn their western home into an Islamic state.
In the Quran there are only two kinds of nations:
Dar'al Islam - the nations which are Islamic
Dar'al Harb - the nations where infidels have not yet been subjugated to Islam.
It is a fundemental goal of Islam to conquer the non-Islamic nations.

You have to realise that when Islam was beginning, many opposed it and there was a lot of conflict against new-found muslims

No more so than Christianity.

[Galaxy Turbo]

People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

It can be agreed that "defensive" is a subjective term, but generally speaking it has one meaning and we all know what that is. I already established that Islam doesn't see Christianity or Judaism as enemies because they are all religions by the same God. It would be illogical for muslims to attack past religions of the very same god they praise today.

Your bolded quotations, "Such is the reward of disbelievers", it refers to disbelievers of that nature, the ones who attack first. It is basically telling muslims they can defend themselves if they were attacked both inside and outside of the Mosque. Let me give you a translation:

2:191 "Kill them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you. Though killing is bad, creating mischief is worse than killing. Do not fight them within the precincts of the Al-Masjid-al-Haram unless they attack you there; but if they attack you, put them to the sword that is the punishment for such unbelievers."

The bold part is a more accurate translation, for "such" unbelievers.

2:192 "If they cease hostility, then surly, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors."

These are more or less telling you that it is defensive, since we know the term "defensive" is subjective, then I've just given you more direction here.

I'm also going to take another one of your quotes here...

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

This particular verse was revealed in 2 A.H.; when the Battle of Badr was taking place. This "aya" you have quoted references the battling the Meccans. I'm putting this forward because I'm saying again, when you take these quotations you make very dangerous assumptions without actually getting the full picture, which is why I encouraged you to read a genuine Qu'ran text.

Just because they are labelled as leaders of the entire faith, it doesn't make them any less susceptible to misinterpretations in the Qu'ran than any other regular person, you have to see this at every possible angle. Once they interpret something, they will have the ability to speak their minds about it on a larger scale, making others susceptible to such misled thoughts. Speak to enough muslims and you will find that they are absolutist against rape, murder, and more.

You have to realise that when Islam was beginning, many opposed it and there was a lot of conflict against new-found muslims of that time, this is why it mentions the defensive elements in the Qu'ran, but Islam doesn't advocate violence whatsoever, as much as many would like to think it does due to extremism.

[Leaf]

Yet they are still granted their positions and regarded as leaders by the Muslim community.. If muslims truly thought such messages were against their faith they would remove them as leaders.


The point is: It would be a similiar situation if after such incidences the Pope came out and said it was the children's fault for being raped.

Why does it have to be an exact similiarity?

You have to be able to see they're both very weird (fucked up if you will).

Didn't the pope state something like condoms is the 'cause of a lot of AIDS in Africa or did he just say condoms doesn't help AIDS? Which one was it?

By the way. Why is the pope the leader of christianity? Show me in the old or new testament where there is something about popes at all.

[TagMor]

The leaders are some of the worst extremists, they drive wrong messages to people and it's something I should not happen but it does and the true messages of Islam were given out but they aren't and they give out false messages and exploit the text like you are.

Yet they are still granted their positions and regarded as leaders by the Muslim community.. If muslims truly thought such messages were against their faith they would remove them as leaders.

Just like leaders of christianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point?

The point is: It would be a similiar situation if after such incidences the Pope came out and said it was the children's fault for being raped.

[gran guerrero]

religion is

[Leaf]

The interpretations were not really part of my argument. Considering the best you could do was an obscure reference to a sword, and family members at odds with eachother, I felt I didnt really need to make that great of a rebuttal.





People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

In the New Testament you wont find the sanctioning of any violence, defensive or offensive.


Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

Just like leaders of christianity indulge themselves in having sex with underage children, often boys, what is your point? Just because other christian leaders doesn't condone it afterward doesn't make it good.

Comparing it just makes it look stupid aswell.

[laureth]

Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

The leaders are some of the worst extremists, they drive wrong messages to people and it's something I should not happen but it does and the true messages of Islam were given out but they aren't and they give out false messages and exploit the text like you are. And also how much of Islam is based on Christianity and you claim of one being peaceful and the other being hostile. Muslims believe in the teachings of Jesus too you know, I know of friends (who are Christians) who have had experiences with hostile Christians so don't be fooled into thinking the way you are at the moment. If you are actually interested in the full argument I would ask you to read Galaxy Turbo's suggestion into reading a translated and legitimate version of the Qur'an and try to do it with an open mind.

[Leaf]

Yeah but... a majority of Islamic women do have to wear the burkas so doesn't that just pretty much tell you what else they are willing to do in order to enforce their religion much more strongly than Christians do theirs? Even if that includes killing infidels and enforcing Islamic beliefs on non believers to server Allah?

Wow, that's a strong argument.

"Islam enforces their religion on people (women) more than Christianity does, they're worse than us"

Both are destructive religions.

[kthx]

Yeah but... a majority of Islamic women do have to wear the burkas so doesn't that just pretty much tell you what else they are willing to do in order to enforce their religion much more strongly than Christians do theirs? Even if that includes killing infidels and enforcing Islamic beliefs on non believers to server Allah?

[Kolar]

edit: and kolar: I think what Tagmor is talking about is that if we really did follow the Christian belief system to the letter there would be no excuse for violence of any kind, but in Islamic religion there are circumstances where it would be allowed (I'm sry btw, I know these threads are actually useless when we get down to it, I mean debating on whether one religiom is better then another come ooooooon i so did not mean to make this go that way).

Btw, anyone bd anymore? Remember when we did? I think someone needs to reform RB who's coming with me?

That doesn't make any sense. There is already no excuse to commit violence within reason, the only difference is that our society 2,000 years later doesn't view justice as retribution, punishment as equal to or greater then that of the crime and rehabilitation an afterthought.


What I am saying is you could nitpick the hell out of either scripture to find ideas and messages that would implore you to do something illegal, something stupid, or both. I don't believe that means Muslims and Christians equally would run around tossing a Burqa on random women or censuring and forcing people to believe in what they do. Some do but the majority have a basic respect for the rule of law and fundamental human rights. With any religion there will be extremist and people who will choose a path of violence.

[TagMor]

he makes some half-assed interpretation

The interpretations were not really part of my argument. Considering the best you could do was an obscure reference to a sword, and family members at odds with eachother, I felt I didnt really need to make that great of a rebuttal.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

This quote indicates that it is defensive

People have many different concepts of what is "defensive". Muslims see Islam as the one true religion and other religions as the enemy. So In a western nation where Islam is not the dominant religion, it could be easily percieved as a defensive act to rectify this, and to be hostile towards people of other faiths.
In that passage it also reads " but if they attack you then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." and "fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

In the New Testament you wont find the sanctioning of any violence, defensive or offensive.

Islam doesn't promote extremism/violence and is in fact one of the most peaceful religions out there

Not true. Although largely ignored by the Media, In many western countries there is an epidemic of muslim gangs raping young Christian girls. This behaviour is even condoned by muslim leaders, who publicly state it is the girls fault for being raped.
Read here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...152362381.html
and here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...37-601,00.html
These were not quoted from Muslim extremists, but from the leaders of the entire faith.

[fLaReD]

I'm not really trying to defend anyone here but this is ad hominen, he made the point that the new testament doesn't tell Christians to go out and fight non-believers, you responded by providing some quotes from the new testament, he responded by pointing out that they are in fact not only not violent, but not even directed at non-believers, then you responded by attacking the person instead of the point. Also, I know that sentence is one massive run-on, I've gotta go!

Also, before I get dragged into anything else, I said I'm not agreeing with anyone, just pointing out what it seems like

this is basically my opinion on the subject except for the fact that i do agree with tagmor