Are We Doomed?

[HeavenSent]

I think it’s extremely arrogant to think that only people who believe as you do will go to heaven.

I think it's extremely ignorant of you to accuse me of such a thing. If you've taken the time to read any of my posts, you'll find that I've said everyone, some without pain, and some with much.

If God sent atheists to hell because they are atheist then he is not all as forgiving as he is made out to be.

Why would anybody want to live with anyone that didn't like them? ..or didn't respect them? God deserves our reverence and demands our respect.

If he actually appeared today and did miracles, that would turn many non-believers but he wont will he?

He's already told us what He's going to do. Just like He told us that the wicked seek after miracles. ..and there's one coming before Him that will even make the sun appear to be falling to the earth... performing all kinds of miracles to deceive the masses. Which they wouldn't be if they read The Word for themselves instead of relying on another man to spoon-feed scriptures to them.

Er...yes there are. Do you personally turn the other cheek as stated by Jesus or do you take an eye for an eye? If there are not direct contradictions the Bible is at least unclear and very open to interpretation. God can not give orders clearly? Why not, hes God?!

Sheese, look at your attitude. Why should God do anything for you other than use you for fertilizer? Can you say Covenant? How about Dispensation? Aren't you smart enough to follow the story-line of the Bible without spewing the crap you've heard from other God-haters?

So it should happen again? Wow you really value life. What happened to thou shalt not kill? If i kill people because i want to send them to a better place am I not evil? If they really are off to a great place why is killing a sin? Surely its a mercy on my part to send them to God early.

You are an evil person. Now you're looking to justify murder. The Bible basically says that the soul is much happier having left this chaotic world. Yet it also says that it's a sin to murder. Why is that so hard for you to figure out? Could it be that you know in your heart that you're destined to weeping and gnashing of teeth?

He blanked me. Guess he didnt care for me before I became an unbeliever.

No, you blanked Him long ago. Clearly, you deny God because you don't agree with Him.

Er....the world they come from is?? Where is this in your blessed Bible? I am hoping this is not reincarnation...not a very christian idea at all...

..and you think you're an expert on Christian theology? Didn't you read the verses I posted with that thought? ...or did it burn too much to glance upon?
Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been (born from above), who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. (Eccl:4:2-3) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl:12:7)
Do you need me to explain those verses to you?

I would expect a better effort from God if he truly did try to reach me, his attempts were obviously pitiful. No burning bushes ever spoke to me Obviously he doesnt think me worth saving. I would expect more clarity from God.

..And God should visit you why? Is it your respect for Him? Your Love? What do you have that would attract the Almighty God of the universe to smack you upside the head? He blinded Paul for three days before Paul went off preaching the Good News to the world.

This is nothing more than conjecture.................

Again, if you've picked up the Bible and opened it to where those horses are mentioned.. what happens? White affects the religions of the world; Pale informs / educates the world; Black refers to the state of the economy after the effects of the Red horse. It's the politicians that make war. Red is the political system of the world going head to head within itself.

Is this a Christian idea? Sounds Gnostic to me.

When Jesus returns to the earth, then He will take His throne and rule as King of kings. Until that happens, satan rules this world. He offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus while the Lord fasted those 40 days in the desert. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Mt:4:8-9)

Well if you always blindly followed your religion..........

You only hear what you want to hear... and then add some... if needed. I don't have a 'religion'. I have a relationship. Religions seek control. Relationships require compatibility. Yes religious fanatics kill in the name of the Lord... and post office workers get stressed out and go on a killing rampage. Does that postman represent all postmen? Is everyone with the same name as you just like you? Is everyone on your block die-hard atheists like you? Were all the kids in your school clones of you? I bet you wish they were.
HELL is a thing 'religion' made up to scare you into the regular service and out of your money. The word Hell in the Bible is taken from 3 different words. One is the Hebrew for grave - sheol; Two is the local garbage heap - gehenna & Three is the place God made for several of the angels that rebelled against Him. It is a place for angels.. not dead humans... called tartaroo:eek:

[adastalin]

everyone, some without pain, and some with much

This is a bit of a Catholic stance. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought catholics believed that it was possible, if you were really bad to go to hell.

Why would anybody want to live with anyone that didn't like them?

So everybody gets to heaven as stated in the previous quote unless you are atheist? This sounds like a slight contradiction to me. You claim to have a good undestanding of the Bible yet manage to contradict yourself? Congratulations, im sure it is really that clear. Also if the Bible is so clear then why has the church fragmented into so many different churches?

Why should God do anything for you other than use you for fertilizer?

So God does not love everyone then? I would not want to have a God who does this sort of thing. I am sure some dictators on Earth have done this sort of thing..
I am aware of the prophecy of the coming of the anti-christ who will rule for a thousand years or something. Is it then your belief that the reign has begun? Who is the anti-christ or is that highly symbolic as well?
I point out an area of the Bible which is unclear to me and you just decide to criticise my attitude rather than explain it? If I find it unclear, even if (not saying that I am) I am really stupid or something then the Bible fails on clarity. It should be understandable by everyone or it fails its purpose to spread God's word. How can the masses follow God's word if they can not understand it?

No, you blanked Him long ago. Clearly, you deny God because you don't agree with Him.

You should know that anyone is really impressionable when young. But when God doesnt answer, what other conclusuion can i come to other than that he doesnt care or doesnt exist? I require something to justify my faith. God gave nothing therefore the faith does not exist in me.

You are an evil person. Now you're looking to justify murder.

I would never justify murder. I do not believe in God therefore nor in life after death. Hence life is the most precious thing that exists. What I was trying to do is clarify your stance, nothing more. Sorry if that was unclear, but I suspect you misconstrued that to make me look evil because you dont like the fact that I am atheist.
Just a thought about Paul. Was he not an unbeliever who persecuted christians? I would go off and preach God's word in a similar manner if God saw fit to prove himself to me as he did to Paul. OK blinding me is a bit extreme but why can he not prove himself to non-believers? It would not necessarily involve a second coming of the messiah as that would be judged as the coming of the anti-christ. Paul clearly heard him. If God would speak that clearly to me it would be enough to convince me.
You are absolutely right that religion does seek control, and it would be better to follow God yourself. One post man does not give them all a bad image because he is just one insane person. With religion though it rarely is ever one insane person. There are branches of most religions that would advocate violence, and those who are at a stage where they are easily impressionable are sucked in. Al Qaeda claims to be a religious organization fighting a holy war. The majority denounce it as not religion at all yet some are willing to die for it. They belive as strongly as you do in their own rightousness yet you would denounce them as wrong. Well who is to say your interpretation of the Bible is the truth? The Bible was written by men not God personally. Now you have demonstrated how much you trust your fellow man, by the whole 4 horses analogy. I mean if you believe that is current then you trust the judgement of no-one. Why are the people who wrote the Bible different? Was every person pure back then? Is it not possible that even if they were, honest mistakes were made in the writing? Maybe because of a word wrong here or there you do something, and have done for a long time.
Oh and btw where did I claim as such that I was an expert at theology? I could not learn the Bible in the way you seem to have done. I try to understand it as fully as possible but it is very vague in some places.

[TelC@t]

Originally posted by HeavenSent
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. In the end, in the very near future, one side will be proven right.

I don't know about that, but didn't 1 side have been constantly proven more 'incorrect' as time pass by ever since galileo invented telescope

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

HeavenSent, as much as I respect your opinion and your beliefs, there's just no way I can take the Christian handbook, the Bible, seriously.

Unless you know the original language it was written in, and have the original document, how can you take anything written in it without a grain of salt? The Bible has been translated many times, each time by scholars, priests, and kings. Who's to say that things aren't lost in the translation? Try this on for size:

1) Go to a language translation site on the web. There are a lot of them.
2) Type in a single phrase in English, and translate it to Spanish.
3) Translate the Spanish phrase to German.
4) Translate the German phrase to French.
5) Translate the French phrase to Hindi.
6) Translate the Hindi phrase to Cherokee.
7) Translate the Cherokee phrase back to English.

I gaurantee you'll end up with a phrase that isn't close to your original one. That's just one phrase--the Bible has thousands of phrases. True, it's not a terribly accurate way to illustrate the point, since mechanical translators aren't perfect, but neither are scholars/priests/kings. Some would say that human translation is even less effective than mechanical. The fact remains, what we know today as the Bible has been translated so many times that the original meaning is probably obscured.

But lets say, for the sake of argument, that by some massive stroke of luck that everything was translated 100% perfect. The literal interpretation of the Bible is the next problem. Are you asking me to believe that people lived for hundreds of years, entire seas parted, and people were turned into pillars of salt? Come on. It sometimes reads like a trashy grocery store Sci-Fi novel. It's Dungeons & Dragons stuff. "My wizard casts lightning bolt level 13!" stuff. I keep waiting for the unicorns to pop up somewhere in there. I'm willing to believe that there are general rules for living presented in the Bible (don't kill, don't covet other people's posessions, etc), but why all the other filler? If I'm supposed to make a leap of faith, at least tell me where I'm going to land. And no, "you'll land in heaven" isn't a valid response.

What I'm basically saying is that the Bible isn't any more valid than any other religion that claims that "unseen forces" are the direct consequence of their deity. That's kind of a ridiculous claim--near cultish, if you ask me. "From this point on, I say that the reason that good people die is because invisible gnomes like to play hackey sack in the hearts of good people!" What's to say I'm wrong? I'll even write a book, call it "The Book of Gnomeland", and bury it in my backyard. A thousand years down the road, some enterprising archaeologist/scholar will dig it up, translate it a few times, and accept it as fact. Why? Because he can't prove it wrong. That's entirely flawed logic.

"But Conc," you say, "logic has nothing to do with faith." Maybe not with your unwavering faith, but I believe that God (if there is a God) gave me this wonderful thing called a brain. By deduction, my brain is a product of God. Logic is a product of my brain. And by the transitive property, logic is a product of God.

You can believe whatever you want, as long as you're not shouting it at me on the street corner. That's just plain threatening, and I don't respond well to threats. But, to me, quoting Bible passages doesn't give your argument any more credibility than leaving them out altogether and saying God spoke to you in a dream. It's just as easy for me to say that God sat on my front porch and drank lemonade and played chess with me last weekend. (I totally caught him in a Knight's Gambit and won his lunch money.)

This is the way I look at it--religion is a construct of the human mind. If you look to the roots of all religion, most were concieved at a time when nothing could be explained through rational thought. There was no science (not to say that science is the be-all-end-all). The human mind is inquisitive, and is always looking for a cause for every effect. Since nothing could be rationalized, it was attributed to a diety. It's no different than Native Americans believing that rainstorms were attributed to a wind and/or rain god. Now, thousands of years pass, and disease/famine/what-have-you ravage this culture. Well, obviously, medicine isn't around, so we can attribute that to a diety, too. So everyone's feeling horribly about their lives, since a lot are slaves or just destitute. Well guess what? The deity also has a tract of space--a beautiful, untouched area, where your every need will be tended to and you will live for eternity! Doesn't that sound grand? Of course it does. Some people needed the faith just to make their daily lives not seem so empty and dreary--you always know that at the end of your life, you're going to be happy forever! It's enough to make even the most lepracy-ravaged cripple dance on his decaying leg.

The point is, stories are nice, but I'd rather just live a good life and not sweat the details. If you have faith, great. I hope that your faith gets you through the day and doesn't weigh you down with the baggage of the whole sin/repentance cycle. I just think that it's a generally good thing to try and do right--God or no God.

[WiseCherub]

HeaventSent, you have mentioned something that has been bothering me.

Does Satan = Lucifer?

Mainstream christianity says this, but I wonder about it.

I have read elsewhere Satan is not Lucifer, but actually two different spirits.

Just for curiousity, I visited the ChurchofLucifer website...

They say this about the 4 directions for ritual stuff..etc...

Belial is North, Earth
Satan is South, Fire
West is Leviathan, Water
East is Lucifer, Air

Also in the bible it doesn't mention the name Lucifer....

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV): It just mentions O Son of Morning...etc

In Catholic Bible it says Lucifer.... I don't accept the Catholic bible fully.

In the Book of JOB it mentions Satan... Revelation...Satan..etc

Read this verse... JUDE 9: The ArchAngel Michael when disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

I found this verse very interesting, since it implies at one time these high-up spirits must have been very good brothers at one time, but the ones who fell took the path of darkness.
They are family and love each other, but don't like their ways.

Lucifer fell because of pride, or didn't like the fact the humans would eventually even order him around... became jealous or scared of losing authority/power. But if God really loved Lucifer, then he would never have done this, in fact give Lucifer the priviledge to nurture the humans....

For example; Why teach someone else something, when they could use it against you? It all comes down to questioning the logic of the ultimate authority and having faith that thee ultimate authority would never give you the short end of the stick.

Also another thought of evil.... ok I believe humans have currently a corrupt soul. So many christians cast all their blame on the devil, in reality its their own problem.... they mis-abuse their free will... of course the devil will try to motivate this sinful nature...but ultimate we mis-abuse our greatest gift... freewill.

Did Lucifer have an influence on the creation of Universe or Earth? I think so....

Do Angels/Demons really have wings?

Maybe some angels are just those grey aliens.. who knows? and humans just gave them names...

Evil is always considered dark.. why? because back in the hunter gatherer days.. nighttime sucked.... cant see...

Darkness is just no light....

Pure Evil is wickedness and taking delight in making others suffer for no just reason. Or stealing from others, and not giving credit where it is due.

Satan is evil, for having the nerve to try to destroy thee Supreme Creator's title/authority. Its ultimate betrayel here, and extremely upsetting.

Sorry to throw religion in here peoples, but Heavensent prompted me to write something in regards to this thread.

A thought to leave you all...

Consider the universe around us, observe it... appreciate it.... think about it.... ah the nature around me... I ask myself who created it... so perfect in design and balance.... oh what a priviledge to even come to this level of sentient thought... and what a waste if it was doomed to oblivion.

Love God with all your spirit, mind, and soul.

Science vs Religion... ah it doesn't have to be this way, both are needed to understand the Universe.

Like everything in the Universe; it tends toward balance.... think about it.....

[brookus]

"It is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [as the babelfish] could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The argument goes somewhat like this:

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith and without faith I'm nothing.'

'But,' said man, 'the babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't, q.e.d.'

'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that.' And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

Edit : That was well spoken Conc.

llater,
Tony

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

I love that book. (and thanks, Tony)

[Pearl Jam]

Originally posted by WiseCherub
In Catholic Bible it says Lucifer.... I don't accept the Catholic bible fully.

First off, write me off as a groupie if you feel the need, but that was great stuff Conc. My beliefs concerning religion and "the higher power" run parallel with yours, and I couldn't of explained them better myself (unless I really wanted to - I rule and you fucking KNOW IT, MAN!).

Second off, in reference to the quote above - I'm a former Catholic, and I've never heard of "the catholic bible". The bible we used was/is no different than the bible every other major Christian denomination uses. In other words - you're nutty and Satan is coming to kidnap your soul and kidney (they sell like hotcakes on eBay).

[DOOWOP BENNY]

i believe that god is TOTALLY omnipotent, like for example if he just wanted to drop a piano on someone FOR NO REASON he'd do it and then he'd be like "OH SNAP, DOGG" and the 12 apostles would be like "awww sheeyit you done got ALL UP in they grill"

EDIT: peter would be like "bitch, please!"

[Verthanthi]

American Gods is a lot more fun to read than the bible.

[HeavenSent]

This is a bit of a Catholic stance. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought catholics believed that it was possible, if you were really bad to go to hell.

You're wrong. Catholics are supposed to believe that everyone has to serve time in purgatory before entering heaven. Unless you're wicked, then they'll tell you that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity.

So everybody gets to heaven as stated in the previous quote unless you are atheist? This sounds like a slight contradiction to me. You claim to have a good undestanding of the Bible yet manage to contradict yourself? Congratulations, im sure it is really that clear. Also if the Bible is so clear then why has the church fragmented into so many different churches?

I haven't made any contradictions. I've already stated in a previous post or two that the wicked will be banned from the city of God. They will never see the glorious city from within and very few if any within want to go outside the city.
Regarding fragmented churches: it's a good illustration of people objecting to certain dogma and having enough support to branch off. ...And the Bible is not clear to all. To some it's like a bunch of parables, to others an unsolveable mystery. As I've said, religion is just one of satan's four hidden dominions upon the earth and mankind. God calls it Babylon, meaning confusion.

So God does not love everyone then?

No, God does not love everyone.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Rom:9:13-17)

I am aware of the prophecy of the coming of the anti-christ who will rule for a thousand years or something.

The anti-christ will be here in person for five months before the Lord returns and reigns for 1000 years.

Who is the anti-christ or is that highly symbolic as well?

The Christ was God in the flesh. The anti-christ will be Satan in physical form descending upon the earth much as some would imagine the return of the real Christ. This is his last chance and he knows his time is short. He's not going to hold anything back in order to make as many people as he can to bow down and recognize him as the christ. As I stated before, it's going to be the Spanish Inquisition all over again only this time they come from the heavens.

I point out an area of the Bible which is unclear to me and you just decide to criticise my attitude rather than explain it? If I find it unclear, even if (not saying that I am) I am really stupid or something then the Bible fails on clarity. It should be understandable by everyone or it fails its purpose to spread God's word. How can the masses follow God's word if they can not understand it?

The Bible does its work more effectively upon the reader, not necessarily the spoon-feeder. People put their common sense to the wayside when it comes to dealing with spirits. People go to church to hear someone yap for an hour and only bring up five minutes of scripture. What have they learned? Ask someone what they learned last week in church and see how much they've retained. The Bible is not called the Living Word for nothing. Sceptics and fault finders do not have the right heart to absorb knowledge from the Holy Spirit while casually scanning through scriptures.

You should know that anyone is really impressionable when young.

I know that. You know that. Satan knows that. That's why one of his dominions is the educational systems of the world. That's why perversion, lust, greed & pride are dominate traits coming out of many graduates lately. There was a time when Barbara Eden of "I Dream of Jeanie" was not allowed to show her belly-button on TV. More and more college grads are denying God. Just the way satan likes it.

But when God doesnt answer, what other conclusuion can i come to other than that he doesnt care or doesnt exist? I require something to justify my faith. God gave nothing therefore the faith does not exist in me.

Speaking of Jeanie, too many people see God as nothing more than one that's suppose to answer prayer. They see Him as their own personal servant, not the other way around. How much of an effort did you give to get to know God rather than just start asking for stuff? God will meet us half way, not without us making some sort of effort. Which it really helps to have a sincere, burning desire to know the truth and to trust in God enough for Him to make the words come alive as you read His Word.

I suspect you misconstrued that to make me look evil because you dont like the fact that I am atheist.

I think you could be right. Although I also think you're doing a pretty good job yourself. To me, atheism is a relatively new thing. Go back several centuries and everyone had some sort of god to worship.

Just a thought about Paul. Was he not an unbeliever who persecuted christians? I would go off and preach God's word in a similar manner if God saw fit to prove himself to me as he did to Paul. OK blinding me is a bit extreme but why can he not prove himself to non-believers?

If He did, you would. Jonah tried to get out of it and ended up in the belly of a fish before he gave in to do the Lord's will. He has an appointed time when He will make Himself known to everyone. Hopefully when that happens, we don't get caught with our hand in the cookie jar.

It would not necessarily involve a second coming of the messiah as that would be judged as the coming of the anti-christ.

But it does involve the second coming.. And the big difference between the coming of the false messiah and the True Messiah is that when the real Messiah returns we'll all be changed instantly from flesh to our new spiritual bodies. This is a simple truth that would avoid all the confusion when the false one arrives... that religion has a hard time conveying to the congragation.

Well who is to say your interpretation of the Bible is the truth? The Bible was written by men not God personally.

God will speak to each individual's heart accordingly as to the depth of understanding. The Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit and the books of the Bible were chosen in the canon because of their consistency.

Why are the people who wrote the Bible different? Was every person pure back then?

They were'nt that different. Besides that's a vague statement by itself. The people certainly were not pure. Moses, the high priest, was a murderer beforehand. David, who will be Jesus' #2 man, was an adulterer and sent a man to die in battle to take his woman. Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, helped to kill Christians. The 12 Patriarchs of Israel sold their brother into slavery.

Is it not possible that even if they were, honest mistakes were made in the writing? Maybe because of a word wrong here or there you do something, and have done for a long time.

After the last books of the Old Testament were written, another book was written to instruct the scribes in making copies. This book is called the Massorah. At the time, God, and many Israelites knew that corruption of that wicked seed had crept within the synagogues. It was after the return of the exiles. Before Israel was taken over by the Babylonians there were millions of Israelites. 70 years later, when the Israelites are allowed to rebuild Israel, less than 50,000 so-called Israelites returned. What had happened was that before they were taken over, the Levites were neglegent in their duties and allowing foreigners to do their job for them. It was the descendants of these foreign temple servants that returned claiming to be Israelites yet having no proof in their family records. They didn't have any. So because of this, the scriptures of the Old Testament were locked with the Massorah. This is one of the reasons why the best version we have today is almost exactly like those found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[HeavenSent]

ConcreteSchlyrd, you've raised so many good points. I think you've represented the curious sceptics very well.

Regarding the accuracy of the translations of the Bible: There is no Bible perfectly translated all the way through. Some scholars would say that the Moffet Bible is the most accurate translation. For the purpose of study, the best Bible to use would be the King James Version. This is because there's old & good Bible tools out there based on the King James Version. A really great study tool would be the Strong's Concordance... the older the better. Strong was a guy in the early 1800's that took every word in the KJV and put it in the original language. A collosal undertaking for his day. The beauty of the Strong's is that it allows a student of the Word to put the Bible back into its original language and translate each word as the student see fit. So in other words, you could create your very own translation based on the choices given for each defined word and the context of the text therein.

I mention to use older study tools because of the turn that society and religion are taking these days. The virus of Politically Correct thinking has infected not only the latest translations but also the study tools. My Strong's, dated in the early 1920's, is much different than editions now in stores... same original words, just not all the same definitions and synanyms listed. Another great scholar that's done some great work with the Bible and making study tools for the lay person is E.W. Bullinger. Bullinger has a KJV Study Bible with a highly informative appendix, unlike many others flowing through the mainstream. It's called the Companion Bible, complete with charts, graphs & notes like no other study Bible.

The problem with using a translator like Babelfish is that you're not starting from the original hebrew. Even looking up an English word in the dictionary, for many words there's many options depending on the context that the word is used.

Regarding the literal translation of scripture: It's an argument even among so-called scholars. For Protestants like myself, we believe those times, dates and ages of the predeluvian patriarchs to be literal. Except I'm among the many that doesn't believe in a literal six 24-hour days of creation. I believe the more one understands God's over-all plan, the more these far-out stories begin to make sense.

For instance: I believe that God's over-all plan is a grand scale story of Passover. The 14 days of Passover originally started the first day of the new year. Which was the first day after the spring equinox. Also the Hebrew day ended at sun down, not midnight. God gives us the first week. That would be the six days of creation and God rested on the 7th day. In the book of Peter, it says that with the Lord a day is a thousand years. There's still another week, or 7000 years. So day 8, Monday, would be Adam's introduction into the population of the world. Day 9, 1000 years later, is the story of Noah. Day 10, the story of Abraham, Day 11 is about the nation of ancient Israel. Day 12 would be the fulfillment of Emmanuel, God among us... and the establishment of a New Covenant of believers. Day 13 is the scattering of Israel and the Gospel going out to the ends of the earth. Finally, day 14 is 'our' day of rest. God will bind all that is evil and wicked while His Saints instruct the masses on the rules of the new kingdom of heaven on earth.

God's main instrument in the Passover was obviously Moses. Earlier in Genesis, before the deluge of Noah's days, God had said that man's days will be shortened to 120 years. Yet it wasn't for another 500 years until the after the 12 sons of Jacab, a.k.a. Israel when that life-span became the norm. Moses is introduced about 500 years after Jacob's sons and lives to be 120 years old. To include to this, is a custom the Hebrews had every 50 years called the Year of Jubilee. This is where everything had to be returned back to its original owner. Interestingly 120 Jubilee Years equals 6000 years, or 6 days on God's scale. The prophets of the Old Testament and of the Apocrypha say that God's plan is 12 days because they didn't account for God's day of rest and finally 'our' day of rest. So this would mean that there's 6000 years of God dealing with Israel as a people. The life of Moses was divided into basically 3 phases. The first 40 he lived like an Egyptian. The second 40 he lived as a shepherd and the final 40 he lived as the high priest for Israel. If we divide the Jubilee years like the life of Moses, we have three 2000 year periods of time for God to deal with Israel.

Now aside from the evident pattern of 2000 years (2000 years after God created man & woman, He formed a man and taught him how to work the land. 2000 years after Adam was formed, God calls Abraham. 2000 years later, Jesus pays the price for the sins of the world. 2000 years after this, He returns as King of king and Lord of lords.), time as we know it goes through 'ages',.. i.e. Digital Age, Atomic Age, Industrial, Victorian... etc. The first 2000 years from Adam, symbolized by Moses being the Egyptian, was a time where fantasy was a reality and legends were remebered through their system of mythology.. which was the secret knowledge of the 'Mysteries' religions. During this era, aliens and/or angels or manifested spirits (all being the same) cohabited and procreated with Adam's progeny. The visitors would present themselves like gods having supernatural abilities like gods. Much chaos was created by them. They made hybrid humans, hybrid animals, even mutated animal/people.

The second phase of Moses was 40 years shepherd. This could sybolize that time from Abraham to Jesus, the Lamb slain. For the Passover a lamb without blemish was sacrificed for a year's worth of Israel's sins. This middle 2000 years was Israel doing the Lord's work. The frequency of the 'god's' visits were very rare by this time and the people had made the tales of mythology their religion. God was having Israel go into communities where remnants of the hybrids still existed to slay them because of their great and vicious evil upon the earth.

The last 2000 years is symbolized by Moses being the high priest. Since the crucifixion, Jesus is the High Priest for all believers. What's this mean? We no longer need a mediator to speak to God on our behalf. What do you call a mediator for God? A priest. We don't need them. That's one of the reasons why the authorities of the Jewish religion wanted to kill Jesus. He was ruining their business. They would be out of a job if everyone were to fully grasp what Jesus was saying. So the authorities of that religion conspired with Judas to have Jesus killed. When this part of Moses' life was over, he died while Israel marched across the Jordan into the promised land. Israel going into the promised land symbolizes the believers entering into their promised land at the Lord's return.

We in our age of technology think that we can just assume those things we've had in the past that we couldn't control are pretty much the same kind of things we experience today. Earth is always changing as with the life upon it.

The point is, stories are nice, but I'd rather just live a good life and not sweat the details. If you have faith, great. I hope that your faith gets you through the day and doesn't weigh you down with the baggage of the whole sin/repentance cycle. I just think that it's a generally good thing to try and do right--God or no God.

I think you've just said another way of saying what Jesus said.

[HeavenSent]

Originally posted by WiseCherub
Does Satan = Lucifer?

Also in the bible it doesn't mention the name Lucifer....

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV): It just mentions O Son of Morning...etc

In Catholic Bible it says Lucifer.... I don't accept the Catholic bible fully.

In the Book of JOB it mentions Satan... Revelation...Satan..etc

Did Lucifer have an influence on the creation of Universe or Earth? I think so....

Do Angels/Demons really have wings?

Satan is more like a title. There are many satans just as there are many devils. But there's only 1 top evil one and he's Lucifer. Son of the Morning is also Jesus' name. It's Lucifer's attempt to upstage the Lord. Isaiah 14:12 has the name preceding 'Oh Son of the Morning' in the KJV. The name Lucifer means son of the morning.
The Catholic Bible is one of the worst Bibles around, almost as bad as the Jehovah Witness's book.
I believe that Lucifer did have a part in the creation of this physical world. That was his job.. tending to the phsical realms.
No they don't have wings. Although they could most likely appear to have wings to someone in the phsical world. They can manipulate the physical very easily.. as we'll all see when he steps on to the stage.

[WiseCherub]

Quote from HeavenSent:
-------

Satan is more like a title. There are many satans just as there are many devils. But there's only 1 top evil one and he's Lucifer. Son of the Morning is also Jesus' name. It's Lucifer's attempt to upstage the Lord. Isaiah 14:12 has the name preceding 'Oh Son of the Morning' in the KJV. The name Lucifer means son of the morning.
The Catholic Bible is one of the worst Bibles around, almost as bad as the Jehovah Witness's book.
I believe that Lucifer did have a part in the creation of this physical world. That was his job.. tending to the phsical realms.
No they don't have wings. Although they could most likely appear to have wings to someone in the phsical world. They can manipulate the physical very easily.. as we'll all see when he steps on to the stage.
--------

Well I purchased a "New Jerusalem Bible" last year, and it is what the Catholics use.

I much prefer the the NIV (New International Version).

Anyhow, I disagree... Satan is not a title, it is an actual ArchAngel.

Satan != Lucifer

though.. popular media tells use they are the same, just as they tell us the devil is red and has horns. Just watch that silly movie "Little Nicky!"..heh.. come on...

I never said that Angels have wings, just said that many people believe this... wings is just a symbol... they are swift messenger/ministering spirits.

Anyhow I respect Lucifer, because he stands for Wisdom.... to question everything.... I don't respect the Pride element, but the Wisdom. To me..heh.. Lucifer is like Darth Vader.... who knows even redemption might be possible for him... can only hope and pray. I believe Satan perverted/manipulated Lucifer in order to get his 11,000 (or so) Angels to help with the Rebellion in Heaven.

But I do agree with you in regards to the Rapture.... I can only hope it happens soon, would be cool to test out the new high-dimensional body out.heh...

False Messiah.... this will be a person that proclaims to be thee Supreme Creator... the ultimate lamer... stealing the credit away from thee true Supreme Creator God, Jesus.

Yes, GOD is not a prayer vending machine.

GOD created use, since GOD wanted fellowship!!!! GOD is a personality, just like us.....

Just something to point out before I go....

If you don't accept Jesus.... here is the conditions:

Don't accept Jesus:
-You'll have no guardian angel, but a demon assigned to you.
-This demon will manipulate you, by using the mind.
-This demon doesn't want you to attain your true heritage, but to be a pawn.
-This demon is jealous of you, since us HUMANS were made in the image of GOD and are very priviledge.. their mission to make sure less and less humans become aware.

Accept Jesus:
-You get the Holy Spirit... a real comforter and conscience aid. Basically you are spiritual immortal with this Spirit.. for this Spirit is the source of all energy in the Universe.
-You get a Guardian Angel


1 other point... When the christians are off the Earth (the rapture), so will the Holy Spirit leave...

During the Tribulation, since the Holy Spirit is gone... everyone on this Earth will not have a CONSCIENCE... it will be pure mayhem down here, and carnal humans will act like total animals...

Basically, God will prove really quickly how foolish these lameasses are.. but these arrogant idiots will think they are GOD..or GODS and they can do a better job than the Supreme Creator... hahahaahah

Don't get me wrong, I do have an ego... I will never bow to any Angel or GOD... only to the Supreme Creator.... the one who created me spiritually.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

First of all, thanks for responding in a very intelligent manner. A person on the TW boards making educated responses? Ludicrous!

Now, let's get down to business:

Originally posted by HeavenSent
The problem with using a translator like Babelfish is that you're not starting from the original hebrew. Even looking up an English word in the dictionary, for many words there's many options depending on the context that the word is used.

Right, agreed. I was just using that as an example to prove the fallibility of translation. My point, though, was that the weak link in the translation, the human link, is unsettling to me. I'm one of those people that don't even necessarily trust someone to order for me at a French restaurant--I'd rather know exactly what I'm going to get. And that's the analogy. If I had someone order for me, and I don't get what I was looking for, big deal--I can always go get a Big Mac later. If I have someone translate the Bible for me, and I don't get into heaven because I took a wrong turn somewhere, I'm spiritually and existentially fucked. I'm not saying that I want to learn Hebrew, because I don't have any interest in it, but I also don't trust my spiritual well-being to the interests of a 17th century English monarch.

Originally posted by HeavenSent
God's main instrument in the Passover was obviously Moses. Earlier in Genesis, before the deluge of Noah's days, God had said that man's days will be shortened to 120 years. Yet it wasn't for another 500 years until the after the 12 sons of Jacab, a.k.a. Israel when that life-span became the norm. Moses is introduced about 500 years after Jacob's sons and lives to be 120 years old. To include to this, is a custom the Hebrews had every 50 years called the Year of Jubilee. This is where everything had to be returned back to its original owner. Interestingly 120 Jubilee Years equals 6000 years, or 6 days on God's scale. The prophets of the Old Testament and of the Apocrypha say that God's plan is 12 days because they didn't account for God's day of rest and finally 'our' day of rest. So this would mean that there's 6000 years of God dealing with Israel as a people. The life of Moses was divided into basically 3 phases. The first 40 he lived like an Egyptian. The second 40 he lived as a shepherd and the final 40 he lived as the high priest for Israel. If we divide the Jubilee years like the life of Moses, we have three 2000 year periods of time for God to deal with Israel.

Alright, here's my next gripe. So God decrees that man's lifespan will be decreased to 120 years. What? Even today, the average human lifespan is about 76 years. One hundred years ago, it was on the average of 49 years. One hundred years before that, people were steadily dying after age 30. Now, I know that you could make the argument that because we use the Gregorian calendar that the interpretation of "Bible years" (as you've pointed out in your interpretation of the creation story) is relative, but here it is again: the Bible has what seems like an arbitrary numbering system. 120? 76? 49? 30? Which one was he talking about? And if the numbers are arbitrary, why even include them at all?

Originally posted by HeavenSent
Now aside from the evident pattern of 2000 years (2000 years after God created man & woman, He formed a man and taught him how to work the land. 2000 years after Adam was formed, God calls Abraham. 2000 years later, Jesus pays the price for the sins of the world. 2000 years after this, He returns as King of king and Lord of lords.), time as we know it goes through 'ages',.. i.e. Digital Age, Atomic Age, Industrial, Victorian... etc. The first 2000 years from Adam, symbolized by Moses being the Egyptian, was a time where fantasy was a reality and legends were remebered through their system of mythology.. which was the secret knowledge of the 'Mysteries' religions. During this era, aliens and/or angels or manifested spirits (all being the same) cohabited and procreated with Adam's progeny. The visitors would present themselves like gods having supernatural abilities like gods. Much chaos was created by them. They made hybrid humans, hybrid animals, even mutated animal/people.

Whoa, what? You had me right up until the point about aliens and mutations. I thought we were God's chosen, one and only, special and unique flowers that were given the Earth to cultivate and keep. When did God make the aliens? Because if he made the heavens and the Earth, as the Bible claims, I didn't recall any mention of creation of other sentient lifeforms. Was that conveniently left out?

And if you're going to equate aliens with angels, I'm equally as lost. See, this is what's going to cause problems if we are ever visited by life from other planets. Religious zealots are going to claim that they're messengers from God, when really, they could just be teenagers taking dad's space cruiser out for a little joyride while the 'rents are out buying more Zebular crystals.

And if angels are indeed aliens, wouldn't that mean that Satan (a fallen angel) is an... alien? I'm confused.

Originally posted by HeavenSent
God was having Israel go into communities where remnants of the hybrids still existed to slay them because of their great and vicious evil upon the earth.

So now, we not only have a God that leaves out important details, but also one that fully endorses selective genocide? Doesn't that seem a little hypocritical? I thought God was supposed to be a loving and forgiving entity. Wouldn't it be just as easy to explain "The Word of God" (TM) to them and try to bring them back into the fold?

Originally posted by HeavenSent
We in our age of technology think that we can just assume those things we've had in the past that we couldn't control are pretty much the same kind of things we experience today. Earth is always changing as with the life upon it.

And religious fanatics think that they can just assume that things happen because "that's the way God wants it." Cause and effect is one of the most concrete ideologies a person can have. It's tangible. It's quantifiable. I know that that's what makes faith "faith," the fact that it's not tangible, but throw us a bone here--give us something to work with.

If God made people, then limited their ability to comprehend the way he works, then gets mad when they don't choose to believe because they can't comprehend... isn't that a little unfair? "Blah blah blah... no one ever said God was fair." Well, we're not talking about someone cheating at cards, here. We're talking about what purports to be eternity. Being unfair with a spirit's eternity sounds like the work of a vengeful God.

I just think it's a little convenient for deeply religious people to explain away holes in their theories with "well, God works in mysterious ways." It seems like a cosmic cop-out. If science can't explain something, they at least answer with a solid "I don't know."