Test a Cram Reset in ?go base

[ogron]

Since staff won't input a whitelist in ?go base for captaincy and I just played another 0-10 game sitting in mid with our team not able to break cram once, let's test a cram reset in ?go base for 2 weeks.

If either team holds the flag for 3 consecutive minutes, warp both teams back to the ears and reset mines/everything like the bot does on ?go, so we can get back to the fun part of basing -- fighting in the flagroom.

I've been basing for 10 years, and my prediction is it will be so popular it will be implemented permanently and in TWLB and TWDT-B. There's already calls to do something about cramming in TWLB, it's needed even more with troll and newbie caps ruining game after game in ?go base.

It should be very simple to code in, and would make basing 10x better.

This is a long overdue change.

Please give this a chance.

Thanks.

[7roll]

Thanks for your input Ogron.
Every time something doesn't go your way you seem to get upset and want to change everything. Are you okay? Is everything alright?
How about instead of crying over everything you try and help people out in game.
Or maybe work on some self improvement as a human being.
Making improvements come from the people who play it the most.
People helping people before coding and crying.
Give it a try.

[ogron]

You're a troll, you add horrid go base lines, and hide and refuse to fight in elim. You're a detriment to the game.

I've trained dozens of players over the years and helped improve their play, and run multiple seasons of multiple leagues, and written 10 seasons worth of Hot or Nots. What have you done?

Has nothing to do with things going my way, I find being on the winning or losing side of bad games equally unappealing, and I've wanted changes to ?go base and basing for years, and written about it in the past.

I made the cram reset suggestion days ago in TWL threads, and I'm bringing it up again as I believe it would be a positive change for the zone. I didn't bring up your trolling or shitty captaining in my OP because I wanted to stay focused on making the game better.

You look like you're well on your way to joining the ranks of Jessup, Falconeer, and Skyforger as a world class troll, keep it up.

[7roll]

Wow, what a compelling read. Almost had to bring out my dictionary for that word detriment. GG's.

That was the first go base line that I made that lost. I'm sure even with your elite experience and vast knowledge of the game that you've made some bad lines.

Elim. I only ran from you. Mostly to troll but mostly after hearing you talk down to other people about how bad they are. I knew you were raging because of me.

This game will never grow with people like you bashing and shaming others in game.

You might bring some good ideas to the table but your ego and way of expressing yourself is just shameful. It's the real thing that's ruining it for others.

I'm actually on my way to bed.

[ogron]

You're a liar. You ran and hid from everyone. It was so bad the entire arena was coording us where you were. We all made it a priority to knock you out for refusing to fight, running, and hiding the entire game in the corners.

Your excuse for cheating is a I talked shit to someone? Are you going to cheat on your taxes because someone at the IRS was mean to somebody? If you're too sensitive for trash talk in a competitive game, use the ?ignore feature.

A competitive game will never grow because of shit talk? I'll let the makers of League of Legends, DOTA 2, and Fortnite know.

I've heard from multiple players you're a troll, and that's all I've seen from you in-game.

If you don't have anything to contribute on-topic to the issue of testing out resetting to the ear in ?go base, stay out of this thread. All your complaints are solved by using the ?ignore feature, and no one cares about your fake sob story.

If you don't like what someone is saying, add them to your ignore list. Problem solved.

There is no ?ignore for trolls and newbies ruining the majority of ?go base games with terrible capping. You're doing damage that can't be fixed with a simple command, and it negatively affects 15 other players. The vast majority of veterans in this game support a whitelist and opine that it would improve ?go base.

And the issue of resetting to the ears like on 'Go' goes beyond bad captaincy. It affects every level of basing, from ?go base to TWBD to TWDT-B to TWLB, and ?go base is the perfect place to use it because of all the terrible captaining that plagues it (many veterans refuse to play base because of people like you.)

It's something that probably should be tested in TWBD as well, as it is a structural, fundamental issue in basing and a problem.

I want more of this:

And less of you and other trolls and newbies selecting horrible lines and being stuck in mid-base the entire game wasting away in a hopeless 10-1 match. Even if that weren't the case, we should still be examining a reset after several minutes since cram-breaking is overly difficult and the least fun aspect of the game (although it can be satisfying in smaller doses.)

And yes, sometimes good captains add bad lines, and bad captains add lines that work out fine, you can find support for any position anecdotally, but on average newbie capped games are trash and veteran-capped games are more fun and competitive.

[7roll]

Sorry, just had to go put on my reading glasses and get comfortable.

I cheated. You cheated. Difference is you got mad about it because I knew you would. I didn't.
(I'm sure you'll come up with some way to make it feasible that you cheated somehow)

The problem I have is you telling people they are benched in TWDT because they beat you in an elim. Or they say 'DOA' in chat when they attach to you.

This is trivial and only makes you look bad. How does that make anything better for anyone other than your ego?

Who really wants to listen to a guy who tries to bench people because they beat them in a game or said something wrong in chat.

Leggo that Ego, Ogron.

In regards to this base ordeal you seem to be having.

I agree with the cram reset.

If you whitelist captains for go base you ruin base. No one learns, everything stays the same, there is no growth.

TWBD if you're that concerned with teams and captains.


I did not include what I have heard from other people about you. I'm sure you're in game antics reflect this already and those reading this already know.

Pleasure foruming with you.

Keep your dick fat,

7roll

[ogron]

Anyway, I'm going to stick to the topic at hand from now on, and I'm not responding to anything unrelated.

Whitelisting captains does not ruin base. It helps it. You learn more in close games than blowouts. Good captains mean more balanced games. You grow faster as a player. That's not the topic, anyway. The topic is resetting cram.

I'm glad you agree with the cram reset, I think it is beneficial to basers at all levels.

As for the UI, this would be my recommendation including the proposed TWL changes to terr:

[7roll]

Are the 3 minutes based on 15 minute games?

[Sulla]

^^^^

[Falconeer]

Anyway, I'm going to stick to the topic at hand from now on, and I'm not responding to anything unrelated.

Whitelisting captains does not ruin base. It helps it. You learn more in close games than blowouts. Good captains mean more balanced games. You grow faster as a player. That's not the topic, anyway. The topic is resetting cram.

I'm glad you agree with the cram reset, I think it is beneficial to basers at all levels.

As for the UI, this would be my recommendation including the proposed TWL changes to terr:

My issue wasn't a whitelist per-se, it's how you go about deciding who gets on the whitelist. If everyone who is whitelisted has the ability to vouch for a player and whitelist them, with no one being able to prevent that, then it's fair. If it's just a group of people or elitists deciding mostly based on their opinion of how people captain or play then it's not fair, it becomes like a high school sorority or a bouncer at a club deciding if you get in or not. Yes, your opinion can be very accurate and good, but there is a huge potential for favoritism, personal preference, bias, and thus abuse. If you are basing it off stats and quantifiable data, then we are back to being fair.

The second issue with a whitelist is that your claim that balanced games lead to growth for new players, is a noble one and we all want balanced games, its true there can be growth but only in the right context. If the same people are being picked every game by the same captains, and a bunch of inexperienced players have to wait 1 hour to get in a game they will just leave instead. This is why i advocated that we all adopt the golden standard that players shouldn't be waiting 1 hour for a game. That we maybe have/create incentives for whitelisted captains to choose an inexperienced player on both teams.

But most elitists seem against that idea. Which only tells me my hypothesis about people who are not good not being picked in base games is more than likely to come true.

[Falconeer]

You're a liar. You ran and hid from everyone. It was so bad the entire arena was coording us where you were. We all made it a priority to knock you out for refusing to fight, running, and hiding the entire game in the corners.

Your excuse for cheating is a I talked shit to someone? Are you going to cheat on your taxes because someone at the IRS was mean to somebody? If you're too sensitive for trash talk in a competitive game, use the ?ignore feature.

A competitive game will never grow because of shit talk? I'll let the makers of League of Legends, DOTA 2, and Fortnite know.

I've heard from multiple players you're a troll, and that's all I've seen from you in-game.

If you don't have anything to contribute on-topic to the issue of testing out resetting to the ear in ?go base, stay out of this thread. All your complaints are solved by using the ?ignore feature, and no one cares about your fake sob story.

If you don't like what someone is saying, add them to your ignore list. Problem solved.

There is no ?ignore for trolls and newbies ruining the majority of ?go base games with terrible capping. You're doing damage that can't be fixed with a simple command, and it negatively affects 15 other players. The vast majority of veterans in this game support a whitelist and opine that it would improve ?go base.

And the issue of resetting to the ears like on 'Go' goes beyond bad captaincy. It affects every level of basing, from ?go base to TWBD to TWDT-B to TWLB, and ?go base is the perfect place to use it because of all the terrible captaining that plagues it (many veterans refuse to play base because of people like you.)

It's something that probably should be tested in TWBD as well, as it is a structural, fundamental issue in basing and a problem.

I want more of this:

And less of you and other trolls and newbies selecting horrible lines and being stuck in mid-base the entire game wasting away in a hopeless 10-1 match. Even if that weren't the case, we should still be examining a reset after several minutes since cram-breaking is overly difficult and the least fun aspect of the game (although it can be satisfying in smaller doses.)

And yes, sometimes good captains add bad lines, and bad captains add lines that work out fine, you can find support for any position anecdotally, but on average newbie capped games are trash and veteran-capped games are more fun and competitive.

Secondly, no don't add people to an ignore list, that's the cowards way out. It ensures that people are isolated from each other and that's the opposite of what you want in a healthy game environment. We should all want instead to have people who are mature, who can debate without acting butt hurt, who learn how to compromise over being selfish, and can come to some sort of understanding by communicating. Nothing gets you nothing... remembering this in real life will help you a lot. Being involved, sharing ideas, learning to co-operate, that is what changes things and makes situations better. By ignoring people clause is ensuring he's always unhappy and always unable to face problems online and in real life.

Don't be like clause if you actually want to fix subspace and the tons of systemic problems in the game, he's contributing to them and not making things better.

[ogron]

Yes, a 3 minute cram reset would be based on a 15 minute game.

I'm not sure it is necessary to change it for a 10 minute ?go base game. You're getting 3 game segments instead of 5 if the cram reset triggers often. You still want newer players learning about how to cram and cram break, and veterans still want to practice it. 2 minutes would be a bit on the short end.

I'll know more if and when we can test the feature in TWBD where the current changes are being tried out.

My point was, that regardless of whether or not TWL implements a cram reset, ?go base should 100% adopt a cram reset no matter what.

It is the absolute perfect place for it, and would be a huge boon.

[Falconeer]

Also clause keeps arguing that team creation is bad, but he shows very limited examples of this. I don't see statistics showing that 20% of games get ruined let alone 50% and if he manages to find one game ruined by a bad captain he doesn't actually post solutions/examples to prove bad choices were made, just complaints.

It's one thing to make a vague statement that someone sucks, I can do that to. "Jessup you suck and you are a bad captain". See? But it's another to actually step back and detail objectively what they did wrong and provide support for that statement.

Show an example of bad captain/base game, and give an example of how given what players were available and active in the arena, you could have made better teams (and yes you need screenshots and match stats/data to back it up). So far it seems like this can't be done, or can't be done often, which leads me to believe Jessup is correct in saying there is no problem. If someone wants to tackle this, then go ahead, at least you would be lending support to your argument instead of making vague claims that look more like you're upset you can't get a captain spot yourself...

[qan]

From various threads around forums, it seems like many people would be interested in trying this, and base would probably be the place to test it, as it's the place where competition is most likely to be heavily uneven. The timing could be refined after some testing. One question: should reset to ears happen even if there's very little time left to win? If not, what should be the cutoff time for no reset?

If nobody sees a problem with trying this I'll make a dev ticket for it.



Regarding the base captaincy list, once again, you left off quite a few vet caps... Even a few who have capped 50+ games with a 50%+ win rate, including midoent with 400+ games capped and a very respectable win rate of 50.2%, meaning he's incredibly consistent and deserving of whitelisting. This means that unfortunately your list can't be used for the purpose of a whitelist, nor anyone else's. There are thousands of players and not even you, the most active cap of all time by a small margin over midoent and with an excellent win rate of 59.9%, are capable of knowing who should be on such a list. I was going to post a new thread advocating a data-driven approach where we use a cutoff based on games capped and a win % ... but even that's flawed, as there are plenty of people who've never even capped, but who could still put together a great line. And then we'd all be arguing over who belongs on such a list and who doesn't, and meanwhile it would be essentially a cap ban for anyone who isn't on it. Whitelist is a dysfunctional and heavy-handed approach.

Well, enough of that. Here's the sheet for anyone who wants to play with it. (By the way, Falconeer, this does suggest that Jessup is a subpar captain with a 19.4% win rate as cap, though the # of games capped is too low to be statistically all that meaningful.) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

At the same time !cap free-for-all is still quite awful. Might just say to hell with it and implement a seconding system. X wants to cap. !second them. If nobody seconds, and nobody else claims cap by being seconded, still lets them cap after X seconds. It's not a great solution, but it's better than open !cap and it doesn't have the problems of a whitelist, or the game-killing effect of nominate.

End of thread derail.

[Falconeer]

From various threads around forums, it seems like many people would be interested in trying this, and base would probably be the place to test it, as it's the place where competition is most likely to be heavily uneven. The timing could be refined after some testing. One question: should reset to ears happen even if there's very little time left to win? If not, what should be the cutoff time for no reset?

If nobody sees a problem with trying this I'll make a dev ticket for it.



Regarding the base captaincy list, once again, you left off quite a few vet caps... Even a few who have capped 50+ games with a 50%+ win rate, including midoent with 400+ games capped and a very respectable win rate of 50.2%, meaning he's incredibly consistent and deserving of whitelisting. This means that unfortunately your list can't be used for the purpose of a whitelist, nor anyone else's. There are thousands of players and not even you, the most active cap of all time by a small margin over midoent and with an excellent win rate of 59.9%, are capable of knowing who should be on such a list. I was going to post a new thread advocating a data-driven approach where we use a cutoff based on games capped and a win % ... but even that's flawed, as there are plenty of people who've never even capped, but who could still put together a great line. And then we'd all be arguing over who belongs on such a list and who doesn't, and meanwhile it would be essentially a cap ban for anyone who isn't on it. Whitelist is a dysfunctional and heavy-handed approach.

Well, enough of that. Here's the sheet for anyone who wants to play with it. (By the way, Falconeer, this does suggest that Jessup is a subpar captain with a 19.4% win rate as cap, though the # of games capped is too low to be statistically all that meaningful.) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

At the same time !cap free-for-all is still quite awful. Might just say to hell with it and implement a seconding system. X wants to cap. !second them. If nobody seconds, and nobody else claims cap by being seconded, still lets them cap after X seconds. It's not a great solution, but it's better than open !cap and it doesn't have the problems of a whitelist, or the game-killing effect of nominate.

End of thread derail.

I try to stay away from arguments of who is a good player or not and just focus on the ideas presented in a thread or in a persons suggestions. That being said it's great that you compiled this list and actually provided data instead of complaints against people. Some of the limitations of this as you've said is that the sample size is not that big for some players...

One thing i can think of for Jessups low win rating, assuming he's sincere (which i will assume unless there is evidence otherwise)... i think by nature he overwhelming doesn't discriminate and gives players a chance to play, probably as a personal mission in game because he's a witness to people being excluded often (likely including himself). This doesn't perse mean he's not capable of picking better lines or making good teams... he could very well have the knowledge for that after 20 years. But instead, it means he often sacrifices a win if it means he gets to include someone. As well if there is some sort of rivalry between him and other players in the game (like the top tier players) then even if he picked them for a base match, they might refuse to play on his team but rather against him, so they compound the problem of his win/loss ratio. This is obviously speculative... but i'm willing to bet at least part of the ratio is due to issues like this.

Anyway, as evidenced by these numbers, it looks like a 50% win margin is a good value... and i might even argue anything higher than 30% for a certain number of games could be good too. As you've said a pure win/loss system is a flawed way to do this, as certain people don't cap but could probably produce winning lines...

But furthermore nothing here shows how close the games were either. Just because Jessup has 6 wins and 25 losses... it doesn't actually indicate how many of those losses were due to imbalanced severely bad team making, and how many were close games suggesting they could have gone either way. And then to top it off with the issues with CRAM that only compounds the problem. Teams might be balanced but a cram can really screw things up and make it seem not so. All you need is 1 player dropping the ball, and that is outside the captains control.

But anyway the list is an interesting start... if only there were some way to compile data automatically on close games and not even count them in the win/loss.. like maybe have a second loss column but it's like balance game loss. BGL. Even in balanced teams, 1 team has to lose.

I would also further argue a win ratio of 70% means those captains frequently don't contribute to balanced teams. They stack teams instead. Which to me makes midoent stand out as an excellent captain even more.

P.S Jessup... she/he? no one really told me, what's the deal?