Amnesti

[Vehicle]

Voth Great response and I appreciate the transparency.

We are not a mental health institution. We should not be armchair psychiatrists. Someone's mental health should have no bearing on how we moderate their rule breaking. (As an aside, this zone is not known for its welcoming and friendly environment and I would argue that for many people the game probably has a negative effect on people suffering from mental health issues.) Someone consistently spamming gross messages in public and private is absolutely a bannable offense.

It's also not enough to say "just use (?)ignore(.txt)." There are several hundred players in the zone. I would venture to say not a one wants to hear graphic descriptions of Steadman's cock. But because of free speech the entire playerbase, many of whom are unaware of ignore.txt, has to proactively act to avoid seeing such spam? Whose interests are we protecting here?

I understand that he's a good jav. I understand many people like him. But the fact of the matter is his actions were enough to warrant a forum thread that is now 2 pages long. I ask, why is it that the community has to protect itself?

Like I said in my first post, I genuinely am indifferent to his spam. But I do think this is the perfect example to really discuss what limits there are to free speech in the zone. If Amnesti's decided to describe a n-word cock rather than Steadman's it would undoubtedly result in a warning and potentially a silence or ban. Is our speech policy literally akin to George Carlin's dirty words?

I don't envy those who truly call the shots on this one, it's definitely a tough discussion, but I think we should take this opportunity to really ask ourselves how our speech policy is affecting the zone.

[Rab]

If people actually listened to rab the whole zone would be banned.

If people actually listened to me they'd see I said ban about 10 people.

[Voth]

Perfect example, had some heated debates with Ogron over the years that got out of hand and put him on ignore to get back to enjoying the game instead of screaming like 6 year olds at each other (which I can admit we both did). He tends to use ?message to bypass ignore list. We are fine now, so for the record I am not looking for any sort of staff interference for what we managed to grow up and deal with on our own. I am just using this as an example. Yes I did rat him out to staff, nothing was done.

No offence intended but, you are wrong if you think you can only send one ?message to someone.

tucker> ?message Nipple Nibbler:here is the first message
Message stored
tucker> ?message Nipple Nibbler:and here is the second
Previous message replaced

Of course, you can go apeshit and do it from multiple usernames and so on and so forth. But it is a maximum of one ?message displayed per username sent until you open it, in which case they can now send a new unopened message. Like I said, nothing like that ever came across my radar, and if it happens in the future, contact me directly, as the situation you describe is punishable.

[rothe]

[Rab]

It's not that simple. These people repeat it daily. Every session starts with receiving abusive messages.

[afghan]

Like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Everyone knows rab is one of the most sensitive people in the game and we can’t take his opinions about banning everyone seriously. Letting amnesti be disruptive without any consequences is probably not the best option either. He probably needs something in the middle like a warning, temporary silence, etc and then escalate from there if needed.

[Voth]

Voth Great response and I appreciate the transparency.

We are not a mental health institution. We should not be armchair psychiatrists. Someone's mental health should have no bearing on how we moderate their rule breaking. (As an aside, this zone is not known for its welcoming and friendly environment and I would argue that for many people the game probably has a negative effect on people suffering from mental health issues.) Someone consistently spamming gross messages in public and private is absolutely a bannable offense.

It's also not enough to say "just use (?)ignore(.txt)." There are several hundred players in the zone. I would venture to say not a one wants to hear graphic descriptions of Steadman's cock. But because of free speech the entire playerbase, many of whom are unaware of ignore.txt, has to proactively act to avoid seeing such spam? Whose interests are we protecting here?

I understand that he's a good jav. I understand many people like him. But the fact of the matter is his actions were enough to warrant a forum thread that is now 2 pages long. I ask, why is it that the community has to protect itself?

Like I said in my first post, I genuinely am indifferent to his spam. But I do think this is the perfect example to really discuss what limits there are to free speech in the zone. If Amnesti's decided to describe a n-word cock rather than Steadman's it would undoubtedly result in a warning and potentially a silence or ban. Is our speech policy literally akin to George Carlin's dirty words?

I don't envy those who truly call the shots on this one, it's definitely a tough discussion, but I think we should take this opportunity to really ask ourselves how our speech policy is affecting the zone.

Go for it. I welcome the discussion about this. My personal views on it and my actions as a staff member aren't always aligned when it comes to this specific situation. As a matter of fact, I personally fall more into the camp where I feel that these players should be banned or silenced semi-permanently until they can prove to have some level of self-control that is satisfactory to allow them to play and/or speak publicly again. That being said, we have a ban manual and a set of rules, and I'm not God. I'll be the first to admit I've had my share of transgressions over the years and I don't think anyone (neither myself nor the most popular, respected guy in the game) should be singlehandedly making decisions about who gets to play and who doesn't on a permanent basis unless we can tie it directly to breaking rules. That is where it gets tricky - go ahead and try your best to write a fair rule that includes all of this in it. I'll just start with what you said in the first paragraph - "consistently spamming gross message in public and prviate." OK, the problem is that my definition of gross might differ from your definition of gross. What's gross? Talking about assholes and ballsacks? I don't find that gross, do you? I really don't give a shit personally. But you might, and that's okay. The definition of spamming is a problem in and of itself. How many lines? How often? Over what time frame? My point here is that I might enforce ABC, and LF might enforce DEF, and then another mod might throw up his hands and say it's ridiculous and no rule violation. Rules need hard lines and definitions or it just becomes a shitshow where staff are enforcing or not enforcing based on personal opinion, which ends up frustrating the community even more because it's cool to do it in front of one mod but not another.

At the end of the day, we need to figure out what the right thing is here, and some people will be upset on both sides of the aisle if it doesn't go their way. Such is life unfortunately.

[Voth]

It's not that simple. These people repeat it daily. Every session starts with receiving abusive messages.

Then report it directly to me. Take screenshots and logs and send them to me. It's punishable, but I haven't seen one report from any of you about it.

vothtw@gmail.com if you need to email them. Just ?message me or forum PM that you sent it there as I don't always check it daily.

[Rab]

The other issue with threads like this is the trolls show up to try and make it look not one-sided. Look at the posts from these accounts in this thread, pure derailment.

Roger Rabbit
make tw great again
olde
rothe

There are loads of accounts belonging to trolls on this forum. No idea which players they correspond to. Certain some of them have multiple accounts tho. Certain some of them are banned in-game.

[Vehicle]

Voth I mostly agree and, to reiterate, I really don't envy you and the others that have to make these calls.

I will say, though, that when about a dozen people show up on forums and say it's a problem then.... it's a problem.

[Nipple Nibbler]

I feel like most people in this thread get caught up in the spam since that is the screenshot I provided. Yes getting 100's of messages in a 30 second period is highly disruptive for that 30 seconds until you get the chance to ignore, especially during a DD when these LONG message take up like 1/3 of your screen so you can not see. But after that 30 seconds, life goes on. Great. He is still putting a big stain on the community for those that don't have him on ignore.

Some of us login to the game to escape the stresses of life. Amnesti is not the only one with problems IRL. But let me paint you a hypothetical (whoa big word for me) picture.

The average age of our player base is probably around 30, maybe even more at this point being the game is 26 years old this year. Let's say Vehicle here has himself a family at home. He enjoys playing this game a lot and has his 6 year old daughter try the game out. His daughter enjoys reading and looks at the chat while playing. I am sure poor Vehicle in this story would have to answer a lot of strange questions his daughter will have now, especially if Amnesti finds out somehow that this new player is a female. Now Vehicle pissed off at the disgust of our community and staffs inability to moderate it he ragequits the game, taking the new player (his daughter) with him. Maybe Rab was his co-captain and does not want to continue running a squad by himself, squad dissolves. 2 other players from that squad decide it's not worth finding another squad so they stop playing too. All because someone hid behind a mental disability as an excuse to be a twat.

Some of this is a true story (the names used in it were randomly picked from the thread).

[Voth]

The other issue with threads like this is the trolls show up to try and make it look not one-sided. Look at the posts from these accounts in this thread, pure derailment.

Roger Rabbit
make tw great again
olde
rothe

There are loads of accounts belonging to trolls on this forum. No idea which players they correspond to. Certain some of them have multiple accounts tho. Certain some of them are banned in-game.

olde is a veteran player, you should probably know that at this point.

I don't know who make tw great again is, but he has hardly been a force for derailment in this thread. He's been respectful and not a shithead, despite the fact that I don't know who he is.

The other two, not sure. But I'll be frank when I say that it just doesn't matter. Forum trolling has been a thing for eternity. Anyone who wants to weigh in here can do it, and I don't think Rothe or Roger Rabbit will stop them if they feel strongly enough to respond.

[Rab]

I haven't seen one report from any of you about it.

I've sent hundreds of cheater calls and several tickets into the ticketing system over the past few years. I've even had staffers tell me to use ignore.txt to block ?messages. Pure incompetence. Nobody in response to cheater calls or tickets ever said it was necessary to email you personally. If that's the process you need to get the bots updated and staff trained. I've even had times of getting so annoyed with staff's lack of action that I've posted reports on the forum, which of course resulted in more abuse that wasn't deal with.

On this particular subject, staff essentially doesn't exist, I don't know if anyone's actually receive any legitimate help.

[Rab]

But I'll be frank when I say that it just doesn't matter. Forum trolling has been a thing for eternity.

This is another problem you should be fixing. It does matter.

[Voth]

I feel like most people in this thread get caught up in the spam since that is the screenshot I provided. Yes getting 100's of messages in a 30 second period is highly disruptive for that 30 seconds until you get the chance to ignore, especially during a DD when these LONG message take up like 1/3 of your screen so you can not see. But after that 30 seconds, life goes on. Great. He is still putting a big stain on the community for those that don't have him on ignore.

Some of us login to the game to escape the stresses of life. Amnesti is not the only one with problems IRL. But let me paint you a hypothetical (whoa big word for me) picture.

The average age of our player base is probably around 30, maybe even more at this point being the game is 26 years old this year. Let's say Vehicle here has himself a family at home. He enjoys playing this game a lot and has his 6 year old daughter try the game out. His daughter enjoys reading and looks at the chat while playing. I am sure poor Vehicle in this story would have to answer a lot of strange questions his daughter will have now, especially if Amnesti finds out somehow that this new player is a female. Now Vehicle pissed off at the disgust of our community and staffs inability to moderate it he ragequits the game, taking the new player (his daughter) with him. Maybe Rab was his co-captain and does not want to continue running a squad by himself, squad dissolves. 2 other players from that squad decide it's not worth finding another squad so they stop playing too. All because someone hid behind a mental disability as an excuse to be a twat.

Some of this is a true story (the names used in it were randomly picked from the thread).

That's fine. I'm on the same page with you personally. I have two kids, a boy and a girl, and I would never expose them to this game willingly in its current state. Luckily, my oldest is just a toddler, but at some point, I'm sure I'll just move on from this game so that I don't expose them unnecessarily to things they shouldn't be seeing at that age. Of course, they will eventually be exposed to plenty on the internet, but I won't let their curiosity about the game I'm playing be a catalyst to do that too early.

Interestingly enough, staff have been having conversations similar among ourselves (less general and more targeted to specific things), but the same reality rings true that I tell all of them. We are either all in or all out when it comes to this stuff. Either the public resigns themselves that staff are in charge and free speech is no longer a thing and we will do our best to weed out the riff raff and be fair in decisions we make, or people need to understand that speech that is not outlawed by the rules as they stand currently will be allowed and players are on their own to use the ignore functions and report any evasion of the ignore functions to staff.

I have a feeling that if we jump off the ledge in either direction, we will have a lot of pissed off players, and it won't just be idiots like Tower that no one cares about. Veteran players will care too, and might even quit because of it. Are we ready for that?