In Protest of Ship Limits in Pure Pub

[Ephemeral]

...The overall goal is to make all Public arenas "enjoyable" at any given time.

Interesting, but is this really the objective of TW? (Any goal of the Pubs would be a subset of the overall goals, or purpose, of TW.)
I have asked about the 'objective' of TW as long as TK has been making suggestions. Over the years many good people have left staff because they all, at some point, ask this question that has no answer.

Nobody has ever been able to get this answer out of those that 'own' TW. TW simply seems to exist with no real direction. No where has anyone said the purpose of TW is to grow larger and more popular. And although we all might be able to offer opinions about what we each think 'enjoyable' means, an objective to TW (and pubs) really has to be more specific.

[Fluffz]

Great, so now all those people who wanted to jav before will have to take their tking to the regular pubs. It wasn't enough that banning levis from pure pubs increased the concentration of levis in the other arenas; now the jav problems there will increase as well. Thanks for screwing pub up even more to appease a small group of elites.

thats why we need this freaking bot in all pubs. with an automated tk module, but one that doesnt change you at 5 tks but at 1. fucking TKs kill me more than any enemy. everyone that plays other ships than jav hates them, they totaly ruin the game and only care about themselves. go baseelim, its not like you are from any help in base at all! thank you for this change, its better than nothing.
however, a jav queue would be a nice addition

[sexy wooden spoon]

Just make it that u get specced after 5 tks - i have seen the bot used in an event so it can be done.

Problem over

GIVE US OUR JAVS BACK

[WuTang420]

OMFG i love this, staff followed suggestion, and in my opinion it worked great, i played pure pub for about 3-4 hours straight yesterday for the first time in a loooong time, was having a great time.

if yall wanna whine, suggest 2 pure pubs, 1 the way it is with limits and 1 with all the tking non-basing noobs you want!

[Hydride]

whats the limit of javs right now? I think it should be reasonable like 5 on each team.. and you can only play it two games in a ROW; that way whoever else wants to jav can jav for two games, etc

[Sarien]

Neat. Welcome to the 800th time this has been gone through.

2 steps forward, 2 steps back.

TK is right about some things, some things I disagree with. I think he sees leviathans as having some sort of fundamental right to life, and I disagree. That's the major spot where we part ways.

I've said this junk for jeez, two years now.
TK has been saying it even longer than I have. I feel bad for him, beating his head against a wall must be some kind of Canadian hobby or something.

Ship limits in pubs are a deplorable idea, and not a bandaid fix. It's sticking your finger in the dike.

Follow the Math, the one language that can't be disputed.
You have for example 15 public arenas in the zone.
If you use a bot to "fix" one public arena, that's 14 still "unfixed".
So the players crowd down to the "fixed" one, leading to overcrowding, and population problems since everyone has their ship they like to play. That is to say if all players that love javs find their way in there, guess what you have? Or if all kinds of players that love to terrier, or shark, or what have you.


Wait a minute, Sarien, Are you saying this is a problem of our own making?
Yup.

You add ship limits and you're creating a whole new and different set of problems. Another leak in the dike.

Fix the settings, if you think the normal pub settings run contrary to what you want the "Trench Wars Game" to be about. Then you pick a chair, and you sit in it, and tell people that don't like it to piss off.

If those settings involve leviathans and you lose basing players, and your pubs degenerate into the very mess of crap that makes me log off when I get aggravated, so be it. Tough shit for us players that want something different. And if you REALLY want to appease them, then make a set of spawnable arenas as necessary, like pubs, without a level 3 bomb and small ship changes to "problem ships" to focus it on basing. See if basing players play there instead of pubs. ?go basing1 basing2. Without bots, without restrictions, etc etc. See if they catch on and become what people want. If they do then make them your standard pub arena if that's what you want.

If you want Trench Wars to be about the basing? Then just get off your dead ass and fix it so that is what it is about. If not? Why play the diminishing returns game until everyone, even the people that wanted things better in the first place, are simply sick of it?

[MirrorriM]

I also love the jav limit, it was very tiring/frustrating/annoying to have a team full of javs tking everyone trying to actually base.

But for the other people...

I agree 3 is too few. 5 sounds better, more chance to get tked, but also more of a chance to play the ship.

Also, the tk limit is a great idea. There should also be a time limit where the tk goes away after so long, because everyone has an occasional mistake.

Other than that, keep everything the same.

[Fluffz]

Follow the Math, the one language that can't be disputed.
You have for example 15 public arenas in the zone.
If you use a bot to "fix" one public arena, that's 14 still "unfixed".
So the players crowd down to the "fixed" one, leading to overcrowding, and population problems since everyone has their ship they like to play. That is to say if all players that love javs find their way in there, guess what you have? Or if all kinds of players that love to terrier, or shark, or what have you.

like epi always says, there is no overall fix (defineable). some people like that, some people like something else. i never liked the idea of having a total levi free pub but a lot of people do. others want to LT only i think bots do offer the best solution we can get. actually they should ensure more difference between pubs. some like the small cloaker, which for the record isnt a bad idea, some like the old one which for the record was a better idea.


if the problem swaps to other pubs we need bots with restrictions there too. i just dont like the idea of having 2 nice pubs and the rest is beyond shit. if that means we get a pub somewhere with javs only its fine, the players that do not like it can still switch to one with a lower number and less javs.

[Kolar]

Pure publics are a testing arena for new ideas and considering this is only a temporary change to see if it works I would say stop getting all pissy about it. Get some people together or do it alone and write up some changes that will actually do something then give it to PL, other Smods/any staffers and mainly the people running TWDev. I took the time to talk to PL about this (even though it took 2 months) and it eventually was tried.

There are two problems here
1. The number of jav players IS causing too much team killing.

-I would like a bot that gives staffers the ability to remove a player's right to use a jav or levi for 1 week.

-Less bullshit work like warning people with previous warnings (no matter the time limit) so I can ban players faster and easier who are TKing intentionally or unintentionally.

-Changes to the top bar in the base so Javs do not attempt this shot (the one above the cram). It rarely works for newbies but they always try it resulting in massive team kills.

Smaller arenas are a bad idea with the number of private freqencies. Spacing out the base more would be okay. Some limits have to be put on private frequencies aswell, I would like to see squads or just players with a lot of points form teams of at least 5-6 or more, people who solo it or just do 1-3 players are annoying and have little chance of doing anything but be annoying. This would also cut down on the private LTing, maybe we could find a way to make the levi into a real base bomber at that point.

As for LTing I think spacing out the base and making it harder for them would be a good idea, maybe slow down the Levi bomb if we can so the levi will have to get closer to the base taking more risks.. There's not much you can do about LTing though, it has to go eventually.


2. That team killing and the lack of real base ship support in any public results in SHITTY basing.

This problem is harder to address. How can we make people get out of the ship and actually care about holding the flag? Some resonable limits must be in place to maintain any level of decent basing in my opinion but as for keeping publics open and unrestricted.. I have no idea how to balance the two.

[Pizza Worm]

This is just a test for now. Personally, basing isn't anything good when your team doesn't know or care how to actually hold the flag room and just wants to bomb the shit out of everything in sight. It is also very hard to ban people for unintentional tking especially when 75% of any given frequency is a jav.

Restrictions suck but are there any serious ideas, that would yeld equal or greater results and wouldn't require months of work, on ways to discourage new players from using this ship? It's not enough to complain. Lets be constructive and cautious here like D1st0rt said. Hell, it only took 2 months from suggesting this to it actually being done.

If you don't take due care and tk your team frequently you need a timeout.

That's the problem, they only get people for intentionals so most bombers don't care.

[Fluffz]

How can we make people get out of the ship and actually care about holding the flag?

i want a game of my choice hosted every 50 games i win and get mvp, an ad of my choice every 50 matches to 3 i win being mvp. and a thor, super and shield every 50 games i win 3-0 being mvp, some bricks ever 50 team leders too

[genocidal]

Giving staff the ability to remove someone's right to play a ship is a terrible idea, and I'm pretty sure it's against staff rules. As I recall, you're not even supposed to *setship any player unless it is in lieu of a ban for TKing. That proposal screams abuse.

[Troll King]

Neat. Welcome to the 800th time this has been gone through.

2 steps forward, 2 steps back.

TK is right about some things, some things I disagree with. I think he sees leviathans as having some sort of fundamental right to life, and I disagree. That's the major spot where we part ways.

I've said this junk for jeez, two years now.
TK has been saying it even longer than I have. I feel bad for him, beating his head against a wall must be some kind of Canadian hobby or something.

Ship limits in pubs are a deplorable idea, and not a bandaid fix. It's sticking your finger in the dike.

Follow the Math, the one language that can't be disputed.
You have for example 15 public arenas in the zone.
If you use a bot to "fix" one public arena, that's 14 still "unfixed".
So the players crowd down to the "fixed" one, leading to overcrowding, and population problems since everyone has their ship they like to play. That is to say if all players that love javs find their way in there, guess what you have? Or if all kinds of players that love to terrier, or shark, or what have you.


Wait a minute, Sarien, Are you saying this is a problem of our own making?
Yup.

You add ship limits and you're creating a whole new and different set of problems. Another leak in the dike.

Fix the settings, if you think the normal pub settings run contrary to what you want the "Trench Wars Game" to be about. Then you pick a chair, and you sit in it, and tell people that don't like it to piss off.

If those settings involve leviathans and you lose basing players, and your pubs degenerate into the very mess of crap that makes me log off when I get aggravated, so be it. Tough shit for us players that want something different. And if you REALLY want to appease them, then make a set of spawnable arenas as necessary, like pubs, without a level 3 bomb and small ship changes to "problem ships" to focus it on basing. See if basing players play there instead of pubs. ?go basing1 basing2. Without bots, without restrictions, etc etc. See if they catch on and become what people want. If they do then make them your standard pub arena if that's what you want.

If you want Trench Wars to be about the basing? Then just get off your dead ass and fix it so that is what it is about. If not? Why play the diminishing returns game until everyone, even the people that wanted things better in the first place, are simply sick of it?

It's not so much that I feel levis have a right to exist as they are now, so much that I don't see them being changed by this administration. A lot of my suggestions already require some changes that many will find too radical, and getting rid of all levis seems even less likely to be adopted. One thing I've been careful to avoid proposing is a change in ship settings, because those changes tend to have unfortnate side-effects that are hard to predict. They're also the ones most likely to cause disagreement. I therefore did not want to suggest changes to individual ship settings, especially with the levi.

When making those ideas, I considered levis and thought if we can't get rid of them completely, let's find some way to lessen the problem. The one about giving levis another target to focus on, I feel, has some promise. If we can't get rid of levis but we can keep them happy while also making basers happy, I think it might be the best option available. I feel that widening flag room is also promising; it can decrease the damage levis cause while also potentially opening up gameplay in the flag room a bit.

[Richard Creager]

TK:I've made my stance clear in each instance.

I don't read every thread in this board up until now I have yet to hear what you decide upon and have only read crazy ass suggestions that no one could possibly want.

TK:Each of my "suggestions" are serious ideas that "I THINK SHOULD BE CHANGED".

OBJECTION! If all the wacky shit I've heard you say about the ships is serious then I'm all the happier that we don't do what you say.

TK:How much clearer do I have to make it? You're basically asking me to stop talking about what I want done and start saying that I want it done.

Yes, how hard is that? It's the fucking topic of discussion is it, you can't just fucking say "I've made a shitton of baseless suggestions you should know what I actually want" what the fuck?

/*My philosophy is to focus on the reasons that cause problems in pubs and target them, instead of things like an overreliance on bots and increased ship limitations which are only band-aid solutions that help a few while pushing the problems onto others.*/

TK:I think that arena population sizes are too big. Fewer people in an arena will mean fewer TKs.

So go to pub 37 where there are 6 people if you don't want a big pub, honestly, lowering the player limit is a shitty idea, of course there'd be fewer TKs, there'd be even fewer people to both BE teamkilled and TO teamkill, not to mention a huge number of people who would just say fuck it anyway because it is what, 10s? No I don't even want to know what this ideal small size is, I don't want smaller arena sizes I want BIGGER arena sizes.

[ALL THIS:I think the map needs adjustments so that Javs won't have safe spots they can shoot from. Javs can continue to sit and lob, but let's make it more dangerous for them to do so. Force them closer to the tunnel where more action and explosions are.
I think the the flag room should be larger. More space would make bombs less effective and put more emphasis on bullets. This would also make it easier to survive levi blasts in regular pubs flag rooms.
I think there should be an outer barrier, almost like a dome, that circles over the flag room. This barrier wouldn't be impenetrable but have sniper holes in it. This would do many things: a) make it harder, but not necessarily impossible, for roofers (especially jav roofers) to make their shots; b) just like the ones coming up from below through mid base, mini-weasels on the roof would have another series of walls and holes to navigate through before approaching the flag room. This would give the defence more time to react to incoming cloakers from above. c) combined with a larger, wider flag room, levi shots will be a bit more limited in how they can hit the flag room]
Is about a map, go make the map, OBVIOUSLY. Submit it, see if they like it, have them upload it somewhere for people to try it, why haven't you done this instead of complaing on the forum if it is what you want so badly.

TK:I think there should be some other target besides the base that would attract levis and javs. Right now, levis have one obvious target to shoot at: the flag room. If we give them something else to shoot at, preferably closer to the spawn area, fewer of them will make the extra effort of heading up to the roof. I like this option because it improves basing while not taking away from levis; while I prefer to help encourage basing, this is something that even levis might like as well.

Ahahhaha, good luck with this one. You and I both fucking know the only reason levs fire at flagrooms is because they're pussy fucking rec and bounty whores who also jizz themselves anytime they get a 3fer, they want the biggest OMGOMGOM x-fer they can get, never will they fucking stop trying to ruin basing and so forever they shall have to be done away with in ANY arena where basing is the focus.

[In this next set of text contains another desire for mapchange with an added bad idea]I think the base itself takes up too little of the overall map. There's too much space and the base is not prominant enough. Combined with a smaller arena population size[fuck no], we could have tighter, more focused[completely empty] arenas.


These are just some of the things I've brought up in the past that "I THINK SHOULD BE CHANGED". I think that any of these changes would improve all pubs, not just the pure pubs. I also think that a couple of these changes in combination would have a cumulative effect. Ideally, I think all of these changes should be made, if not at least investigated. Is that good enough for you Richie? Or do you think I still don't have a clear stance?

Perfectly fine I know what it is now AT THE CURRENT DATE not a set of some random "let's suggest ANYTHING besides what the people want in the discussed matter" suggestions from way back when in threads I have never read that you have NEVER put your backing into with CONTINUED re-suggestion (you know, showing you REALLY want your idea to go through, echoing it at any chance because you believe in it, but obviously, if we should all just look back on thread x that we don't know about and have never read and WILL never read, the suggestion must not be that important to you and so it would only be even less important or even considered to us).
Clear stance? Sure, now, finally, however, it is quite easily a stance I can't be interested in and besides the fact YOU still have lots of time to spend in SSME before half of it can even be tested. So troll, you stop worrying about the poor other pubs that no one played in before pure pub and no one plays in during pure pub and no one will probably play in ever, why? Because of fucking levs. But sure bring em back with a dome, this'll work obviously and I am totally excited about having the single baseable place in the zone get those wretched blue fuckers put back in to ruin it all over again, but it wouldn't really matter that much to me, because on your suggestion the arena sizes would be lowered. WHAT THE FUCK!?!? LOWERED?!?! Hell fucking no, that's the last thing we need, you complain that there is only one good pub, well obviously it wouldn't be a problem if that single pub could easily accomodate all pub non jav and non leviathan players who are logged in at any single time. The ONLY way to do this is to INCREASE the size of the pubs, not decrease. The other pubs NEVER get any people to begin with, it is the PERFECT place for all the frustrated jav newbies to go teamkill er I mean practice, the only place that would need or even see the effect of a size increase if the first one EVEN if you take off the base enabling bot.

And what the fuck is this "omg tking is bigger in the other pubs" well gee must mean by troll king's teamkilling logic, that the other pubs have received AN INCREASE IN PLAYER AMOUNT since javs have been taken care of in the first pub. I still fail to see how this is a problem, I do not see how the other usually always empty pubs finally getting players could possibly ever be a problem or anything close to what the pub doesn't want or "waht isn't best for the pub" obviously troll king's perf pub is an arena full of spectators speccing a flag an arguing over who is more centered on it, since having more people playing in any given pub is obviously such a bad fucking thing.

Oh you're whining because those other pubs don't have anything near the same level of basing focus because all those players are javs and levs? What the fuck? How is that the problem of the first pub's? It sounds like more a problem with the zone being composed primarily of RETARDS. Do I want those retards in my arena teamkilling me with their novice shots and no enemies nearby? No, fuck no, and goddammit no.

Force pub0 to be sliced down to what? You still aren't fucking clear in a lot of places even though you obviously want to kill the only basing arena in the zone in some lame attempt to make the other pubs playable by making sure every one of them has what 10 people per team? That's stupid there will not be 10s there would be 0's with 20 people in spec if even that.

I really cannot BELIEVE you would be complaining about the furthering in quality of the only arena people have ever played seriously in for extended amounts of time, when people start flooding the other pubs to the same number or anything even close then obviously it would then be time to fix the other pubs as well but no one has ever played in those pubs since the incarnation of the zone. Half of the people contesting are just jav players saying that pubs should be public. Fuck you, there are still plenty of public pubs, again, GO THERE. There's even another levless pub for you to troll king er I mean teamkill in, you have no reason to complain about the publicity of a single pub when ALL of the other ones STILL retain the level of open ships that you fuckers are whining for. GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY PUB WITH YOUR SHIT SHOOTING DONT COME BAC GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE THE ARENAS ARE STILL FUCKING THERE AND WAITING FOR YOUR SUB PAR JAVELIN FLYING FAGGOT ASS GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE GO THERE

[Troll King]

And I can't believe you think we should divert our energies to improving the one pub that's already supposedly better than the rest when you made it abundantly clear that it's the other arenas that need more work.

The increase of Jav TKs in other pubs is based on the exact same thing with levis when pure pubs were first created. Taking the pure pubs out of the equation, the average number of levis in the remaining arenas increased.

The smaller arena size doesn't have to be as drastic as people think I'm suggesting. I'm not asking for population sizes of 16 (as in a traditional 8 vs 8 base game) but closer to 25. There's still plenty of people to base with. You proposed larger arena sizes, but that will only increase the number of javs in an arena and you'll have two results: more TKs from javs; or a much lower ratio of people in each pub that is basing. That latter result will come because having more people encourages more spawning.

As for you never hearing or reading about any of my suggestions before, I've been pushing these in multiple threads since CoT's forums. Every time there's been a thread about pubs or about improving pure pubs, every time there's been a thread about setting changes, or ship limits or restrictions, I've repeated my alternatives. You don't seem to be able to recall any of them, because you haven't read them and don't intend to read them. That's fine. But get off your damn horse preaching about me complaining and whining but never showing any ideas of my own. If you haven't read them that's your problem. Don't turn that around on to me now. You basically challenged me to put up or shut up, and now that I've shown I've been putting them up for years, you say it's my fault that you've never read them?

I have no intention of "killing pub 0". Quite the contrary, I've also always maintained that any improvements in pure pubs should be expanded to all pubs, even if I disagree with them. As Kolar said, they're intended to be tests for other pubs. But it's been ages since pure pubs have been created and we have yet to see the benefits expanded across to the other pubs. There's no trickling-down of improvements. Instead, all the other pubs get is an overflow of bilge.