Distension Beta Suggestions/Bugfix thread

[jngy slate]

Thanks for the tips. Your commentary has restored my faith in humanity. Almost every time I start replying here I am reminded of the famous pic about the special olympics and I feel like giving up.

You only play a Terrier and that makes you a tad biased about the situation. Of course you do not want it to get nerfed but it seems fairly obvious to me that something needs to be done. I am not suggesting anything that would kill all the fun but things like this need to be discussed since it's still BETA and the balance of the ships is a very difficult thing to accomplish.

Getting so many kills with a ship that isn't supposed to must be a lot of fun, but is that what every Terr wants? Do they not have any fun if their main purpose is to stay alive? Profit sharing and such things can always be adjusted to assure a certain amount of RP, and getting massive amounts of kills isn't needed as anything else than a fun factor. We do want people to keep playing Terriers, so playing one has to be fun, but this can be accomplished without making the ship grossly overpowered.

I would like to hear NL>Terminator's comments about this situation since he is a high level Terr and seems like a reasonable guy. I wonder if he has a forum account though?

Hmm, yes it could be that I'm biased since I only terr. Or it could be that the rest of you who NEVER terr are also biased. Like you, I've only ever seen you using a jav or x. Never the terr. And there's many like you that never use the terr. In fact, there are more people who never terr than there are those who only terr. I would think that would give me the right to be biased.

It's not really fun for me to get kills, or even streaks. I don't care about them. In my previous message I mentioned I was having lots of fun when we took over that flag room. Funny thing, I didn't kill anyone. As long as my comrades are killing I'm satisfied. But taking away something like burst will anger me. I have put many hours into bursting. Most players think getting kills with burst is all about luck. But really it isn't so much. A lot of times I see players wasting their bursts by using them where they don't reach any enemies, using them when a shark is around to rep them, or using them all in a row. In the end the terr who uses its burst wisely is going to prevail. And sure there will be a few times when he won't but that would probably be either because his team didn't provide an escape route, the other terr lagged a portal/burst, or he wasn't paying attention.

Keep the bursts. Anyone who dies to them knows what their going up against. The reason they keep dying to them so much is because they're willing to in order to kill the terrier. But most of the time they get pissed they're little suicide plan didn't work. I would say get rid of l2 bullets but that would really make me biased. I don't use them. But I see some of the more offensive terrs use them and it's fun to have that option available.

Bouncing bullets - an upgrade to a fighter (wb?) that allows bullets to bounce a set # of times (1x or 2x) or for a set time (like 4 secs) would allow for javlike shots to be made with less destructive bullets, increasing sniping?

I wouldn't mind seeing this one wbs. It would increase their sniping creativity.

Bouncing Shrapnel - shrap can be annoying, but low level bouncing shrap might not be taht overpowering. or it could enhance the little used bombs of some ships.

Like Andy said it can't be done. And even if I could I woldn't support this.

Bouncing bombs - how come only the jav gets to shoot crazy angled pool shoots? maybe even give someone the ability to bounce 2x!

Let the jav be unique.

Temporary increase/decrease of stats - someone mentioned giving an enemy crazy high rotation and such like in enigma. This could be pretty cool as a weapon against someone or toned down could allow for say a short +25% stat boost for yourself.

This sounds fun/funny.

Temporary inverted controls - i remember the levi originally flew backwards and it was a bit difficult to figure out how to fly. maybe an enemy could be targeted with inverted controls to make them an easy target.

Another fun idea.

meat shield - probably been brought up before, but how many times do you detach just to be killed instantly, saving the terr but annoying you. maybe you could pm this ability for a death that allows you to get a really high energy boost, but it takes away all weapons (and maybe speed/thrust), leaving you as a meat shield for the terr.

no

freeze tag - probably not possible, but maybe you could have an ability that freezes an enemy. this could either leave them vulnerable to be killed or it could actually make them invulnerable but also inactive for a set period of time, effectively taking them out w/o killing them.

It sounds overpowered if you use it the right way. Use it on a terr in a flag room and it's garanteed to survive.

ship size decoy - maybe you could temporarily increase the appearence of a ship like in prodem evol. Or, it could be a false representation: you'd look big but be normal sized. Or, you could just have a gigantic decoy that distracts ppl.

o_O

inverted reps - once again, probably impossible, but since you got different bursts for different ships i got creative. give a ship an inverted rep, kinda like the meatshield idea that would draw fire/mines/enemies to one ship.

no

mini me - like the large ship idea but the opposite effect - temporary weasle sized ships

Personally I wouln't like this.

[Lag.Com]

Just thought I'd pitch in about Nuggets' comments in friendly pink.

Bouncing bullets - an upgrade to a fighter (wb?) that allows bullets to bounce a set # of times (1x or 2x) or for a set time (like 4 secs) would allow for javlike shots to be made with less destructive bullets, increasing sniping?
I fully support this for WB.

Bouncing Shrapnel - shrap can be annoying, but low level bouncing shrap might not be taht overpowering. or it could enhance the little used bombs of some ships.
This is possible (bouncing bullets give bouncing shrap) but honestly, shrapnel is enough of an indirect kill already.

Bouncing bombs - how come only the jav gets to shoot crazy angled pool shoots? maybe even give someone the ability to bounce 2x!
This has to be in ship settings permanently; all ships of one type either have bouncing bombs or they don't.

Decoys - the prismatic array for the weasle looks really cool even if it doesn't help them that much. maybe other ships could get a similar ability
A bunch of ships have decoys.

Temporary increase/decrease of stats - someone mentioned giving an enemy crazy high rotation and such like in enigma. This could be pretty cool as a weapon against someone or toned down could allow for say a short +25% stat boost for yourself.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after - temporary 'buffs' and 'debuffs'.

Temporary inverted controls - i remember the levi originally flew backwards and it was a bit difficult to figure out how to fly. maybe an enemy could be targeted with inverted controls to make them an easy target.
Mmmn, I doubt this could be changed midgame.

Bridge idea - the bridge idea mentioned before sounds cool
well yeah, I already commented on this one

meat shield - probably been brought up before, but how many times do you detach just to be killed instantly, saving the terr but annoying you. maybe you could pm this ability for a death that allows you to get a really high energy boost, but it takes away all weapons (and maybe speed/thrust), leaving you as a meat shield for the terr.
This would require changing all the max energy settings and such, but it's not impossible by any means. This sounds more like the kind of thing the ops Shield ability is for, though.

freeze tag - probably not possible, but maybe you could have an ability that freezes an enemy. this could either leave them vulnerable to be killed or it could actually make them invulnerable but also inactive for a set period of time, effectively taking them out w/o killing them.
This could also be used defensively; knocking out your engines totally and giving you shields while putting you in cram has obvious uses. The bot would have to warp you to your current location and give you a long engine shutdown, I think.

ship size decoy - maybe you could temporarily increase the appearence of a ship like in prodem evol. Or, it could be a false representation: you'd look big but be normal sized. Or, you could just have a gigantic decoy that distracts ppl.
SS can't really do this, unless the bot actually manually controls an LVZ sat on top of your head. Would be funny, anyway.

inverted reps - once again, probably impossible, but since you got different bursts for different ships i got creative. give a ship an inverted rep, kinda like the meatshield idea that would draw fire/mines/enemies to one ship.
I think different ships have their own repel strengths, so sure! I'd like to have one anti-rep (attract, heh) on the Weasel, but we know how that goes.

mini me - like the large ship idea but the opposite effect - temporary weasle sized ships
Can't do this either

[Jeenyuss]

temporary inversion happens in enigma, doesn't it?

[meddi]

I think we have been through the bouncing bullet thing a number of times, and dug - along with many players - has been against it.

[Lag.Com]

temporary inversion happens in enigma, doesn't it?

Yes, but it affects every ship, not just one player.

[Bobyz]

Hmm, yes it could be that I'm biased since I only terr. Or it could be that the rest of you who NEVER terr are also biased. Like you, I've only ever seen you using a jav or x. Never the terr. And there's many like you that never use the terr. In fact, there are more people who never terr than there are those who only terr. I would think that would give me the right to be biased.

It's not really fun for me to get kills, or even streaks. I don't care about them. In my previous message I mentioned I was having lots of fun when we took over that flag room. Funny thing, I didn't kill anyone. As long as my comrades are killing I'm satisfied. But taking away something like burst will anger me. I have put many hours into bursting. Most players think getting kills with burst is all about luck. But really it isn't so much. A lot of times I see players wasting their bursts by using them where they don't reach any enemies, using them when a shark is around to rep them, or using them all in a row. In the end the terr who uses its burst wisely is going to prevail. And sure there will be a few times when he won't but that would probably be either because his team didn't provide an escape route, the other terr lagged a portal/burst, or he wasn't paying attention.

Keep the bursts. Anyone who dies to them knows what their going up against. The reason they keep dying to them so much is because they're willing to in order to kill the terrier. But most of the time they get pissed they're little suicide plan didn't work. I would say get rid of l2 bullets but that would really make me biased. I don't use them. But I see some of the more offensive terrs use them and it's fun to have that option available.

Don't get rid of l2s. I think the terr is fine as is. It just all depends on how you play terr that pisses a lotta of people off. Jngy plays more defensive not going for kills that often and stays alive longer than me. I play super sui offensive, rushing into fr spamming burst and dieing within 5 secs. i updrade l2s and recharge for that reason, to kill more. if i scraped, i could load up on energy and something like escape pods (i have 0 upgraded) and i would stay alive tons longer, but be less offensive.

The reason why terrs are so high ranked is because usually no1 wants to start a low ranked terr, its completely useless to the game. So then what ends up happening is some one with a higher level terr is forced to terr or lose the game, so they just keep playing and playing and they are level 50 before you know it. I agree terrs level up quite fast, but i think the most that should be done is increase the cost for +1% profit sharing. You wont be able to see any obvious change, and probably will still complain, but thats cause mostly only high level terrs have that maxed out. But it should make a difference when the game is released and everyone is starting over.

[Bobyz]

Yes, but it affects every ship, not just one player.

that might actually backfire with a high ranked spid. if the spid gets super at the time he goes crazy spinning, wont it annihilate everyone around him?

[gdugwyler]

Approaching changes

As you've probably heard there are a number of changes coming into the beta as we move into the final stretches:

• All players will be given a significant rank in each ship, for variety of testing.
• The ship-type modification will go in.

The ship type modification is giving me a bit of trouble so far, however. Here is the problem: at present, the system is based loosely on having upgrades generally available at the rate of one per rank, or 10UP. This usually doesn't cover special upgrades, but at least at one point this was the idea -- so that a player will generally be able to add an ability each rank, or close to it.

With the introduction of (in a sense) "free" recharge and energy, just in controlled amounts each rank, clearly there will be a significant amount of UP left unaccounted. By and large the UP that would be used to upgrade energy and recharge for a given ship type will be taken out of the rank increase UP amount, in a sense budgeting for these abilities automatically. However, the amount taken out won't be quite equal to past costs, so in the long run players will have a little bit more UP at present than if they just made a build under the current system in which they upgrade energy and recharge the same amount for a given rank. The reason for this is because the ship types take away some flexibility as far as energy and recharge are concerned.

(This all excludes the ship type option that allows players to upgrade energy and recharge on their own, which will have a slightly smaller amount of UP per rank than players now typically enjoy -- I'm imagining 9 so far.)

There's also the matter of the first X ranks to deal with before a ship type decision is made. For some time I was running with 15 or 20, but I'm thinking I'm going to push it all the way down to 10 to make it easier to calculate the amount of UP each ship type should receive per rank. The idea will be that at rank 10 you'll be given the option to change from the default ship (which will become disadvantageous to have after rank 25 or so) to one of the specialized ship types. There will also be a float time of probably 5 ranks in which you can make the change without any penalty, in case it takes you a while to decide. (Of course, when this change first comes online it will be free for quite a while.)

In those first 10 ranks you'll be given a strong mixture of energy, recharge and UP. The energy and recharge will also be given disproportionately to the rate at which you'll receive them in later ranks, with any build. This is to get new players up and running competetively as quickly as possible, and also establish a base 100UP that all ships will carry with them regardless of type. (The first 10 ranks will probably keep the 10UP per rank formula, with the free energy and recharge paid for by slightly more expensive thrust and speed upgrades.) This 100UP foundation should allow some flexibility even in the heavy ship types, which may be forced to make difficult scrapping decisions from time to time.


Any ideas are welcome on this subject. It's about 60% there, but I'd only recently decided on some things so it will be moving faster soon -- still any input would be helpful. Also, thanks for the special ability ideas; these are also going to be needed in order to offer the UP-heavy ship type a reason for existence. At the very least I can confirm for certain some buff abilities, one in the fashion of increasing a certain array of abilities a large amount for a certain amount of time, and also those that buff only one upgrade at a time, but stay throughout that life. In order for these to work properly, the maximums will probably be done away with -- ?status percentages will not have much meaning afterward. Let me know if this would be a problem for anyone.

Thanks for your ongoing patience. We're getting there.

[roxxkatt]

Dugwyler 13:7
"And on the twelth day He spoke, of an end to the hunger."


this thread got halfway down the page =(

btw, i still am a strong supporter of the current "science vessel" ship we currently use, and i would really like to see it still recieve the full 10, not 9...

[gdugwyler]

Dugwyler 13:7
"And on the twelth day He spoke, of an end to the hunger."


this thread got halfway down the page =(

btw, i still am a strong supporter of the current "science vessel" ship we currently use, and i would really like to see it still recieve the full 10, not 9...

Well, the problem with that is that if that were the case, everyone would choose it. (Also, it's been renamed "Z-Class" and the special ops has become the Science Vessel -- makes more sense I think.) And every ship type, including the Z-Class, will have a free 3 upgrades in energy and recharge before rank 10, plus 10 UP per rank. Essentially that means a bonus 60UP. That bonus alone should make up for the fact that the Z-Class will receive less than 10 per rank; however it also will have a reduced scrapping bonus and of course the ability to have maximum energy and recharge, something allowed to no other ship. So: 9 is the most it will receive per rank, with 8 also being possible. Note that costs will be normalized a bit as well, so for example the Warbird won't have extremely expensive energy and recharge at later ranks, and the Jav and Spider won't enjoy the current proportionally cheap upgrades in slots 4 and 5.

The other option would be to have the Z-Class completely wipe all of the upgrades that players of other shiptypes earn in the first 10 ranks, and continue on with 9 or possibly even 10 UP per rank. I think 9 would be in order in that case, however, as the ability to max energy and recharge coupled with extreme flexibility and scrap cost reduction is just too powerful to be ignored, and I want the other more standard ship types for the average player that does not want to juggle builds regularly to be the best decision.

[dako]

DaKo says: If it ain't broke, dont fix it. I really don't see what problem this whole new elaborate system is creating. If anything, it looks like its making things more complicated.

Special note: 1000th post

Special special note: Distension beta up for 8 months now

[gdugwyler]

DaKo says: If it ain't broke, dont fix it. I really don't see what problem this whole new elaborate system is creating. If anything, it looks like its making things more complicated.

It's not exactly broken, but the game can be structured many different ways, some better or worse. This is being done in an attempt to take away the present distinct advantage given by investing mostly in energy and recharge. It should encourage a greater variety in ship builds, allow more creative constructions, allow new players to compete more easily by having energy/recharge managed for them, and so on. (A thread earlier on has more info.)

And while this system does make things more complicated in some ways -- having to choose which ship type, essentially -- it's more simple in others: with your recharge and energy upgraded automatically, you just worry about the other, more interesting upgrades, and will also find that (on average) you have more UP than if you purchased the exact same upgrades in the old system. This then means more abilities can be added, encouraging yet more diversity while working around the restrictions of the automated recharge and energy.

Also, I've decided to implement the Z-Class so that you can essentially play as you would at present, earning 10UP per rank. The only significant change will be a normalization of energy and recharge costs -- all ships will have the same costs, rank requirements, and number of available levels -- and a slight increase in the cost of speed and thrust.

[gdugwyler]

Moar updates in case anyone was curious:

Pretty much done with all the changes needing to be made to test out the new ship type functionality. I also want to tweak some costs a very slight bit and go over the code again to see if nothing was missed. Also, the DB work.

But most importantly:

• Planning on testing tomorrow at 1:30PM EST.

If I'm not able to get it going by then, definitely shooting for the 1:30 Monday slot.

[roxxkatt]

to me, the best course of action regarding the "z-class" is to disallow the free < lvl10 upgrades, and keep it at 10up per lvl, because only when the ship gets to lvl60 does it become profitable to be.

im not too fond of the 9up per level, but if it gets the inital 60up, then that would be even as well. but the first choice is still the best, imo.



-edit-
good decision.
im glad you took it that way, because i had already decided to have every ship zclass (if you couldnt tell), because i enjoy having full control over my upgrades.
if you have indeed decided to 'normalize' those values, and increase spd/thr, what will happen to the ships with already exorbitant costs?
for instance, levi thr 3/5 costs about 70up... will it be more?

[roxxkatt]

now that ive tried it, id say to completely get rid of all this ship specialization.
even with all ships reset to the same level, everything is so unbalanced now that it isnt fun anymore...
no matter how much time and effort you put into it, it needs to go.


and i find it funny that the same glitch that ruined the database, which wasnt backed up, is still there...
right, it hasnt been fixed.


also, there needs to be a rearm afk checker, for those players sitting rearm while the pitiful 4v6 going on is ruined because one team has 2 idiots sitting in spec, effectively making it 2v6.