Distension discussion

[project dragon]

An idea for if you want to mess with the shuffle idea:

Have the bot shuffle the teams only if one side wins all three rounds under a certain amount of time. If one freq wins all three rounds in, say, under 10 (?) minutes of actual flagging time, DBot will decide that the teams are stacked and shuffle accordingly. You can call it "divine intervention" or something like that. The shuffle will only happen if one side wins all three rounds in a row.

[E sharp]

^ This.

[Lucon]

The obvious answer here is to make me an ER.

[Viruk]

I concur with Lizard Fuel. It can be incredibly frustrating how often quick wins/losses continue for a hour because of poor team balance. I propose that if a team wins a war with three CONSECUTIVE battles won the teams should be shuffled before the next war. This way it only takes a few (maximum 5, I suppose) annoying wins/losses for the teams to be switched up.

I think in many cases losing teams have the right ships and skills to win but people fail to step up and take responsibility to switch to the right ship, make that push or make/heed terrier calls. In these cases those teams probably deserve to keep losing.

There is a slight problem with the game in that it doesn't always encourage team play though: players are forced to use particular ships and tactics to unlock certain ships regardless of what is best for their team.

Of course if you do decide to shuffle the teams automatically you have to decide whether to make some kind of temporary forced assist or shuffle the armies.
Temporary forced assisting should work but could be confusing and awkward to implement.
Shuffling the armies may not even the teams properly since the armies are now much bigger than the teams. It would cause much grief to those who invested resources in defecting or have developed loyalty to their army although they are probably already so ticked off with the earlier arbitrary reshuffles that it would make no difference.

There was some heated discussion about the Shark repel situation on the chat.

The repels used to be too strong in beta, so at some point they got nerfed a ton.

So whatever happens we don't want them back that strong.

Currently you can't repel Warbird bullets unless you are not moving or you are moving backwards.

I think this claim has to be tested as it is counter to my experience.

Even then, it is hard and often fails because of lag.

When sharking I usually find I fail to repel in time mostly because of inadequate danger sensing and repping reflexes but I have no doubt that lag is a major factor at close range.

Sharks have to move forward all the time to help with the flagging, so most Wb bullets get through your repels. The reason for the problem is probably the fact that, the weakened repels are no match for the relative speed of the bullet and your ship.

They certainly don't have to be moving at full speed though. If there is a settings problem we need to test to see at what sort of relative speeds it occurs.

1) Some players (that mostly consist of Warbirds) feel that they should be able to shoot through repels, since they are used to it

I am certainly used to it happening at close range and would not expect it to be radically different in Distension but since I believe it is a laggy effect I feel it ought not to happen much beyond this without a good reason. Very high relative speed seems a good reason to me.

and they feel the game is already balanced perfectly.

I doubt anyone is under the delusion that the balance is - or ever could be - perfect. After all that beta testing it is probably pretty good compared to anything else in TW.

That is a pretty standard reaction and isn't really a valid point but here it is anyway. Defending your ship is fine but please try to validate your claims with logical arguments.

Seems like two perfectly logical and valid points to me. Whether they are strong enough arguments is debatable.

It's also good to remember that, balancing a game like this is very hard and there is still much work to be done, even if it did go public already.

Lets just make sure there are no major imbalances and it is fun to play. Then we can all relax and play it. Shark rankings do not indicate they are underpowered. Sharks certainly make an impact on the game when playing and their reps are certainly very useful. There is no outcry from most other shark players. I would certainly hate to see the existing balance risked without a very good reason.

5) The ability to shoot through repels is overpowered. Even if the Wb is meant as a counter ship for the Shark, it doesn't have to be that strong. Levis and Weasels are a much more balanced match up.

I doubt it was ever intended that warbird was meant to counter shark by anything more than being able to one-hit kill it between reps (and maybe not even that). It does seem rather nice that it worked out that way though: waiting for them to run out of reps is not much fun. I think that shooting through reps is only overpowered if it happens all or most of the time. If it only works sometimes at close range or at high relative speed then this seems quite a well balanced counter to me. If bullets regularly go through (not between) reps at long range with no excessive lag or relative speed then I would agree that there is something badly wrong.

6) It takes no skill to be able to shoot bullets through repels. The game should always be more about skill than anything else.

You can use timing to shoot between (not through) repels if they have a short enough duration to allow this.
You also require good aim to hit the ship at all at long range.
If it is possible to use high relative speed to shoot through a rep then achieving this will often require some flying skill (or lack of skill from the shark).

I would turn this argument around and say it would be better that good timing and sensible flying should be a factor in successfully repping something. There is little skill in repping if reps are so powerful that you can just use them in succession while rushing full-tilt at the enemy and be immune to all enemy fire until your reps are used up.

7) Repels are currently very weak in bigger flagroom battles because they don't really stop the bullets nowadays, they just slow them down a bit. This results in the Shark turning into a kamikaze ship that is unable to achieve its original purpose (and that makes it boring). Just rep-rep-rep-mine-mine-mine-die-attach and repeat. This point is a little hard to explain but I will try to explain it later if needed.

Seems to me that the bullets are stopped. They may not be flung back towards the enemy as fast as a rapidly advancing team might wish though. It is possible to run down a bullet you repped at high speed.
I agree with your description of repetitive sharking but am not sure what else you would expect and whether a single ship can achieve much more without it being seriously overpowered. Nor is repetitive play unique to the shark - many ships end up repeatedly 'doing and dying' in a hard fought, crowded FR battle.

8) For those that think, it's all about timing or lag are not entirely wrong but are missing the point. Those two things factor in the problem but are not the source of it. It doesn't matter how well you time your repel when the bullet keeps coming, even after a successful repel. Tanking bullets doesn't solve the problem either, and Warbirds generally have the ability to one-shot-kill any Shark of the same level, due to getting blue bullets when Sharks start tanking yellows.

The ability to tank bullets sometimes might be a good argument that shark is not underpowered but I agree it seems a poor excuse for allowing poor repping. I am just not convinced by my sharking and warbirding experience (currently around Wb L20, Sh L16) that the rep settings are insufficent to stop a fast bullet in most cases.

I also believe that if reps are beefed up to the point at which they could overcome lag and timing issues then it risks making the shark significantly overpowered and it would also make the playing experience worse for all those who rely on skilled flying and firing.

In conclusion:
If a high relative speed and fast bullet combination can be used to overcome repels I would welcome this for game balance reasons.
While I deplore the laggyness and skilllessness I think close range lagging through reps also helps game balance.
Only if fast bullets alone or fast bullets with a low relative speed can bypass a well timed rep do I see this as a problem.

[Stabwound]

Stabwound: interesting case. I think I know why that happened: you still had the max amount of playtime for that day. I'll try reorganizing the queue so that it puts the people who've played the least in first, regardless of when they joined the queue -- that way, in that situation, you'll sit in the queue longer, yes, but you won't be put in just to have it taken away. (That case is a fairly rare one anyhow.)

This is what just happened to me, and I didn't even try to enter the game:

DBot> A slot has opened up. Sending you to your army...
(DBot)>Commander STABWOUND authorized as a pilot of PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF MISANTHROPY. Returning you to HQ.
DBot> Another player wishes to enter the battle; you have been removed to allow them to play.
(DBot)>STABWOUND leaving hangars of PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF MISANTHROPY. Time played today: 37 min.

[Static Burn]

(DBot)>BURNT leaving hangars of PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF MISANTHROPY. Time played today: 23 min.

DBot> You are already in the queue; please wait patiently and you will be AUTOMATICALLY ADDED into the battle when a slot becomes available, or at the end of the round. You are #12 of 15 waiting.

Any possibility there could be multiple arenas of distension?

[Stabwound]

I also agree that teams should be auto-shuffled under specific circumstances. I, however, disagree that they should be shuffled just because a team wins three in a row, because the whole point is to win three more rounds than the other team. If you're down two rounds and then win three in a row, it shouldn't really shuffle them, because that team still needs to win two more rounds in order to win the war, and it's kinda dumb to change the teams all around in the middle of the war.

I think the bot should shuffle at the end of a war (which occurs when a team wins three more rounds than the other team) but ONLY if one of the team won three rounds in a row from the beginning of the war without the other team winning a single round OR if they won five rounds in a row (meaning they were one round away from defeat, but came back winning five rounds in a row to win the war). I think that would be a pretty good indicator that the teams are too unbalanced.

[Mjollnir]

There was some heated discussion about the Shark repel situation on the chat. A lot of stupidity ensued but I will try to reiterate some of the points. The repels used to be too strong in beta, so at some point they got nerfed a ton. Currently you can't repel Warbird bullets unless you are not moving or you are moving backwards. Even then, it is hard and often fails because of lag. Sharks have to move forward all the time to help with the flagging, so most Wb bullets get through your repels. The reason for the problem is probably the fact that, the weakened repels are no match for the relative speed of the bullet and your ship. The problem with the Warbird bullets is the most noticable but some of the other bullets/bombs have the same kind of impact. This post concentrates only on the Warbird bullets though. The post is going to be from a Shark's point of view since I have been playing one lately. The question is, should Shark repels be made strong enough to be able to properly repel Wb bullets?

Arguments AGAINST and FOR to follow.

AGAINST:
1) Some players (that mostly consist of Warbirds) feel that they should be able to shoot through repels, since they are used to it and they feel the game is already balanced perfectly. That is a pretty standard reaction and isn't really a valid point but here it is anyway. Defending your ship is fine but please try to validate your claims with logical arguments. It's also good to remember that, balancing a game like this is very hard and there is still much work to be done, even if it did go public already.

2) Warbirds are the counter ship for the Shark, so they should be able to kill them easily. See point 5. for the counter argument.

3) You just need to have the skills to repel the bullets in time. See point 6. and 8. for the counter arguments.

4) You can tank yellow bullets with a Shark, so it is not a problem. See point 8. for the counter argument.

FOR:
5) The ability to shoot through repels is overpowered. Even if the Wb is meant as a counter ship for the Shark, it doesn't have to be that strong. Levis and Weasels are a much more balanced match up.

6) It takes no skill to be able to shoot bullets through repels. The game should always be more about skill than anything else.

7) Repels are currently very weak in bigger flagroom battles because they don't really stop the bullets nowadays, they just slow them down a bit. This results in the Shark turning into a kamikaze ship that is unable to achieve its original purpose (and that makes it boring). Just rep-rep-rep-mine-mine-mine-die-attach and repeat. This point is a little hard to explain but I will try to explain it later if needed.

8) For those that think, it's all about timing or lag are not entirely wrong but are missing the point. Those two things factor in the problem but are not the source of it. It doesn't matter how well you time your repel when the bullet keeps coming, even after a successful repel. Tanking bullets doesn't solve the problem either, and Warbirds generally have the ability to one-shot-kill any Shark of the same level, due to getting blue bullets when Sharks start tanking yellows.

[meddi]

I concur with Lizard Fuel. It can be incredibly frustrating how often quick wins/losses continue for a hour because of poor team balance. I propose that if a team wins a war with three CONSECUTIVE battles won the teams should be shuffled before the next war. This way it only takes a few (maximum 5, I suppose) annoying wins/losses for the teams to be switched up.

Why are you attacking me? When my point was Distension doesn't need to suffer every time an ER wants to host cos thats just stupid...

Read what i said CAREFULLY....

I totally agree the level of hosting and events isn't as great as it used to be... Alass the <ER> horde recruited when this whole "staff reshuffle" just hasn't had the quality of training as the old...

I'm sorry. I was not trying to attack you. I was attacking the idiots that flirt with HMS and become as stupid as he is.

Back on topic: I've been on the winning and losing side of repeated blowouts. I'm also pretty positive that this has been mentioned several times prior to now, but something really needs to be done about it. There have been several instances just tonight where 1 team will win 10-12 games in a row, in less than 2 minutes, then continue to blowout the soccer game, only to repeat the process all over again, until eventually the tides change and the same thing happens again with reversed roles. After "X" amount of losses, an automated shuffle should occur, to keep the integrity of the game on track

[meddi]

I miss 50+ people in games of ?go journey, but since nothing awesome is ever hosted anymore distension will have to do.

I finally got re-addicted to it.

[RiiStar]

You're not seeing a decrease in <ER> events because of distension, you are seeing a decrease in event population because the <ER>'s are retarded and fuck everything up. .?go bug would have 40+ people if Flibb or Chao was hosting it, but I haven't seen Charis get more than 8 people to an event yet, even during peak hours, when distension isn't even running, because he/she (shim) ruins everything "shim" touches. I don't see the logic is holding 50 people hostage in distension for 30 minutes, so Flion or Charis can host a shitty event for 6 people.

Face the reality that qan created an event that is new, fun and better than what the rest of the zone has to offer 99% of the time. Best part is that not even all the shitty new hires can fuck it up. Most of you will eventually see the light, the rest of you will lead lonely lives.

Why are you attacking me? When my point was Distension doesn't need to suffer every time an ER wants to host cos thats just stupid...

If it was quiet and Distension is running then cool... but say an <ER> was goin to host an arena part way into or say 15mins after Distension is started when it was quite what happens then? Im sure the distension players would get pretty shitty if it was killed when something else where is hosted... :P

Read what i said CAREFULLY....

I totally agree the level of hosting and events isn't as great as it used to be... Alass the <ER> horde recruited when this whole "staff reshuffle" just hasn't had the quality of training as the old...

Can we please make the goals less defendable? There is no incentive whatsoever to delay the ball's respawn by constantly blocking your goal, and yet you have whole teams hanging out inside the goal just to spite the other team. Even just opening a couple gaps in the wall to score from outside would help a lot.

[Lucon]

Why's this distension baloney so popular?

Edit: Oh, and how do I get my personal favorite ship, the weasel?

Problem is <ER>'s don't run on a schedule, this would work for the weekend/Wednesday events that ECT organize but the stuff that <ER>'s host on a whim aren't at set time or places... Some times its quiet hosting wise, others there's more activity...

If it was quiet and Distension is running then cool... but say an <ER> was goin to host an arena part way into or say 15mins after Distension is started when it was quite what happens then? Im sure the distension players would get pretty shitty if it was killed when something else where is hosted... :P

You're not seeing a decrease in <ER> events because of distension, you are seeing a decrease in event population because the <ER>'s are retarded and fuck everything up. .?go bug would have 40+ people if Flibb or Chao was hosting it, but I haven't seen Charis get more than 8 people to an event yet, even during peak hours, when distension isn't even running, because he/she (shim) ruins everything "shim" touches. I don't see the logic is holding 50 people hostage in distension for 30 minutes, so Flion or Charis can host a shitty event for 6 people.

Face the reality that qan created an event that is new, fun and better than what the rest of the zone has to offer 99% of the time. Best part is that not even all the shitty new hires can fuck it up. Most of you will eventually see the light, the rest of you will lead lonely lives.