blackrazor, BanID #20549, Three Month Ban ... why please?

[Xog]

most likely it's discussed within the staff what should and shouldn't be revealed
processes aren't revealed for exploitation, or attempted exploitation i'd assume. it just makes everyone's job a little bit harder if there were ppl abusing the system, which is all the more important because what staff does for this game is on their dime and time

[Connection]

most likely it's discussed within the staff what should and shouldn't be revealed
processes aren't revealed for exploitation, or attempted exploitation i'd assume. it just makes everyone's job a little bit harder if there were ppl abusing the system, which is all the more important because what staff does for this game is on their dime and time

Pretty much like this: If you know what the system is, you can abuse it easily. It results more ban evasions etc. I'd like to give an example from real life -> Social security numbers are not public either...

[blackrazor]

Connection, the sentence before the one you underlined:

"So at the moment i believe you are the player that i think you are and ban stays."

sounds like a rejection to me.

Sure, in the next sentence you leave the door open to a possible review, but you were convinced of your data. Tell me, what else, besides a personal appeal from other staff, would have led you to consider that your data was wrong (when you were so sure of it).

Also, I was told from other staff (not you) to contact you in game for our online chat, and also how to contact you, since I couldn't get into TW due to the ban. Lucky me I had those staff to vouch for me, and to tell me how to reach you online outside of TW.

Also you changed your splash to say look for bang-op after my ban was fixed. I had no such guidance. I didn't know who banned me, until the next day, when you emailed me back.

Now I want to make clear, I don't want to turn this into a fight. Maybe staff has gotten so used to belligerent players, that the reflex at this point is to treat all players that way. I don't want this. I was merely stating, for the benefit of Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker (and others who ask), how things can go wrong.

It's NOT to be taken as an attack on you, Connection. I already understand that you were doing your job, and I think most sensible people will hopefully think so, too. It's more a question of whether there is a point to consider modifying the policy going forward. There will be benefits and drawbacks to any change, and also of maintaining the status quo. That is where I wish to focus the discussion.

[blackrazor]

There is no hotline where you can call if you think you are banned wrongfully. 1st and most used option: an email where you can send a complaint. 2nd option is to find me in game and talk to me.

Ephemeral and Jason have a hotline. Their wrongful bans (and the bans of people they know and/or squad with) get fixed in 5 minutes. This is according to their own posting in this thread. If staff enjoys this benefit, and I can see why they might think everything is fine. Congress in my country pays no income tax; not suprisingly, they think the income tax code is totally fine, too. :P

[blackrazor]

most likely it's discussed within the staff what should and shouldn't be revealed
processes aren't revealed for exploitation, or attempted exploitation i'd assume. it just makes everyone's job a little bit harder if there were ppl abusing the system, which is all the more important because what staff does for this game is on their dime and time

These are the stats proposed by Ephemeral that Connection says are confidential that are posted in this thread:

List of what I think would be helpful staff stats
Number of bans investigated over last 30 days
Number of bans investigated over last 6 months
Number of bans investigated over last year

Number of bans implemented over last 30 days
Number of bans implemented over last 6 months
Number of bans implemented over last year

Number of bans revoked over the last 30 days
Number of bans revoked over the last 6 months
Number of bans revoked over the last year

===

I added: average length of time between ban and ban revocation.

===

Tell me xog, how can any of the above be used to help cheaters cheat better? I understand if you gave away the "secret sauce" of how you ban, or what exact metrics are used to investigate a player.

But how exactly is the statistical data listed above going to make it easier to cheat the system?

[Ephemeral]

All those stats are confidential because they contain information that public doesn't need to know. This info can be seen by Bang Op only. I don't see a reason why public needs to see how many bans were took in place in 6 months or so. ...

Respectfully disagree.
I would agree if I were saying that staff names would be used. But metrics are numeric generalizations that are usually meant to measure performance. And it is my opinion that general staff performance should not ever be considered ‘private’. Transparency is a ‘good’ thing, in both directions. Again, the primary value is that these kinds of threads would decrease. Whining and complaints could then be handle in the proper context, that being that the trend is simply there or not there. Metric also serve as a very good way for the staff to understand how it is doing, where there are areas to improve, or how to better hire, or how reduce work.
Not everyone understands metrics and how to use them correctly. Other times people understand them, but resist using them because they don’t want to be held accountable.
eph

[Stabwound]

I actually have always liked the ban contesting system Extreme Games uses: http://www.extreme-games.net/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=6

Everything is done on the public forum, so there is complete transparency and it ensures bans are looked at by multiple people. It looks like they could handle it better, but the system is pretty good, I think.

Ephemeral and Jason have a hotline. Their wrongful bans (and the bans of people they know and/or squad with) get fixed in 5 minutes. This is according to their own posting in this thread. If staff enjoys this benefit, and I can see why they might think everything is fine. Congress in my country pays no income tax; not suprisingly, they think the income tax code is totally fine, too. :P

The type of wrongful bans they're talking about are a completely different case from yours. It's a common occurrence for people to affected by another player's ban due to an unfixable technical fault in the ban system. When this happens, staff is alerted quickly due to in-game system messages, so it tends to be fixed pretty quickly if someone is around to see it, without the player needing to talk to anyone about it.

Cases like yours, where people are banned due to mistaken identity or being wrongfully accused of cheating are actually very rare.

[Connection]

Also, I was told from other staff (not you) to contact you in game for our online chat, and also how to contact you, since I couldn't get into TW due to the ban. Lucky me I had those staff to vouch for me, and to tell me how to reach you online outside of TW.

I sended you an email saying to contact me in game before i told this other staffmember to say it to you.

Also you changed your splash to say look for bang-op after my ban was fixed. I had no such guidance. I didn't know who banned me, until the next day, when you emailed me back.

Ban info about who banned who is not revealed outside of staff because of the spam harassment the banner might get.

Now I want to make clear, I don't want to turn this into a fight. Maybe staff has gotten so used to belligerent players, that the reflex at this point is to treat all players that way. I don't want this. I was merely stating, for the benefit of Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker (and others who ask), how things can go wrong.

It's NOT to be taken as an attack on you, Connection. I already understand that you were doing your job, and I think most sensible people will hopefully think so, too. It's more a question of whether there is a point to consider modifying the policy going forward. There will be benefits and drawbacks to any change, and also of maintaining the status quo. That is where I wish to focus the discussion.

Don't worry, i don't take things personal, i just want to show our point of view and explain why something is how it is so there wont be any misunderstanding. There will always be different kind of opinions about things tho.

[blackrazor]

I sended you an email saying to contact me in game before i told this other staffmember to say it to you.



Ban info about who banned who is not revealed outside of staff because of the spam harassment the banner might get.



Don't worry, i don't take things personal, i just want to show our point of view and explain why something is how it is so there wont be any misunderstanding. There will always be different kind of opinions about things tho.

1. I didn't know how to contact you online outside of TW. Other staff gave me the information I needed to actually be able to do it.

2. I know why it's not reavealed. I was just pointing out that because I was banned before you changed the splash, that I didn't know who to contact online until you emailed me the next day. And, as above, I didn't know how to do it outside of TW, until another staffer told me.

3. This part makes me most glad. I don't like fighting. I'm glad we can talk about this in a good way. Thank-you.

[kthx]

I actually have always liked the ban contesting system Extreme Games uses: http://www.extreme-games.net/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=6

Everything is done on the public forum, so there is complete transparency and it ensures bans are looked at by multiple people. It looks like they could handle it better, but the system is pretty good, I think.

The type of wrongful bans they're talking about are a completely different case from yours. It's a common occurrence for people to affected by another player's ban due to an unfixable technical fault in the ban system. When this happens, staff is alerted quickly due to in-game system messages, so it tends to be fixed pretty quickly if someone is around to see it, without the player needing to talk to anyone about it.

Cases like yours, where people are banned due to mistaken identity or being wrongfully accused of cheating are actually very rare.

That top part is a good idea but the problem is staff here think that anything that shows them in a negative light should be disposed of in the dregs of the forum (ie trash talk) so it obviously wouldn't work out. I guess they think people don't just hit "new posts" when they login and actually look at each individual subsection.

[the_paul]

The problem with the way bans are contested now in TW (and the reason these issues end up on the forums so often) is that it keeps the situation "under the rug" so to speak. Staff looks after each other, which is the reason a lot of times people can't even find out who banned them. This makes sense, but then you send a complaint email which only certain members of staff can read. These members of staff are not going to go behind the back of one of their colleagues (as seen here in this thread), so really what does that email do? Sure you might look into it Connection and talk to the staffer who did the banning, but that staffer will say that the player did this and this worthy of a ban. Then you'll talk to the player and say no, I did that and that and got banned unreasonably. Now in this situation, who are you going to listen to? The staffer of course, and thats just natural.

Taking it to the forums allows for more transparency and, more importantly, more accountability. Maybe when you talked to the ban victim he mentions that he and this staffer have had run ins before and he thinks a bias came into play in the decision, and that his case is being painted wrongly by the staffer. Now if you allow the situation to be posted about on the forums, maybe other players come forward and say yeah, these 2 have had issues before, why was this guy the one to make this decision? Now I understand in pretty much every case you'll have to wade through a lot of bullshit to get to any useful information , but its the accountability that matters. Banning should be a last resort, from what I understand of staff protocol, thats what warns and silences are for. Now if a staffer has enough confidence in his judgment to make the decision to ban someone, I really do not think it is a stretch to think that he/she should have enough confidence to then justify that decision and defend it. It's one thing if a staffer makes a poor choice and only his colleagues and cohorts are going to know the mistake, its another if he makes a mistake and has to defend himself in front of the entire community. I think questionable staffers might then think twice before they abuse their power.

Connection this post has no connection (heheh) to this situation really. I can understand how you came to that decision, and you said you waited for a login to dicuss it with black, it was just poor luck he didn't log on. I've been caught under bans before (stop getting banned blurry), shit happens, and it's really not a big deal or anyone's fault. This post was mainly because it came up and this seemed like the right place. I also understand that, if I were to be honest, staff makes the right decision, or at the very least a justifiable decision, a vast majority of the time. However, I think a system such as this, with more accountability, would reduce that small number even more.

tl;dr fuck off just read it

[kthx]

I agree Paul, with the population dwindling the last thing that staff should do is be so hush hush about everything, I don't see why threads have to be moved and deleted, ideas don't have to be posted, etc etc etc.

Why can't staff just work with the playerbase instead of against it and start justifying decisions with the people who still play this game? I mean holy shit, I remember it took three years to get Israeli F-15 Fighter banned for cable pulling in elim, it was a huge joke to every single player and you are going to sit here and tell me that you shouldn't be talking to the players when making decisions on this game?

[Demonic]

I agree Paul, with the population dwindling the last thing that staff should do is be so hush hush about everything, I don't see why threads have to be moved and deleted, ideas don't have to be posted, etc etc etc.

Why can't staff just work with the playerbase instead of against it and start justifying decisions with the people who still play this game? I mean holy shit, I remember it took three years to get Israeli F-15 Fighter banned for cable pulling in elim, it was a huge joke to every single player and you are going to sit here and tell me that you shouldn't be talking to the players when making decisions on this game?

I thought this was about BanG not forum posts. The ban was lifted, so clearly connection agreed with the player when he looked into the ban so i fail to see the problem, with the exception of a good excuse for having a moan.
Bans are down by nearly 50% from where they were 3/4 years ago, and connection has always been someone who has fought to keep bans down to a minimum and always sides with the players unless evidence is blatently against them. As for contacting, if connection is not online you can always message me to look into the bans, so we try to make sure someone is online where possible to action any problems. Would love to say mistakes never happen, but that would just be a load of crap.
As for releasing information of bans, that just isn't going to happen.

[kthx]

playerbase is down about 50% also, so it makes sense bans are.

[Pressure Drop]

I actually have always liked the ban contesting system Extreme Games uses: http://www.extreme-games.net/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=6

Everything is done on the public forum, so there is complete transparency and it ensures bans are looked at by multiple people. It looks like they could handle it better, but the system is pretty good, I think.

The type of wrongful bans they're talking about are a completely different case from yours. It's a common occurrence for people to affected by another player's ban due to an unfixable technical fault in the ban system. When this happens, staff is alerted quickly due to in-game system messages, so it tends to be fixed pretty quickly if someone is around to see it, without the player needing to talk to anyone about it.

Cases like yours, where people are banned due to mistaken identity or being wrongfully accused of cheating are actually very rare.

Yeah i agree with that totally. I've always been in favour of total transparency and critical of some of the policies and attitudes in staff that only serve to separate and distance themselves from the overall community which they volunteered to serve. Too many treat it as an ego trip and a position of power/respect rather than to do a job, others work thanklessly while others misdemeanours and cover ups lessen the respect that staff has within the community.



I really cant understand why so much is staff only info when we have all been playing this game for years. Even eph just asking for some solid numbers is hit with intransigence and for no good reason either. if they said "that wasn't tracked" fine, but to say "you dont need to know, only staff can know" is silly, how is that precious info ?

Or we have to ask to make polls but they can create any frivolous poll they want ... it doesn't breed the mutual respect i believe transparency and openness would.

anyhow on topic of this general thread, while catching evaders is important in this day of dwindling population not banning and frustrating innocent players is more important. If black razor didn't have staffers on his side then this would have been more off putting for him personally and indeed we could have lost another player.