Changes in pub #2

[Ephemeral]

What can be said when people respond with ‘this sucks because I don’t like it’? Surely no one believes that this is an argument that will persuade anyone to change their mind. Building an effective argument requires you to put aside personal perspectives and forming a position that cannot be simply written off as someone who is selfishly clueless.

This means that effective reasoning would includes things like why this might hurt new player retention or further reduce existing player population. Huge bonus points if you can suggest quantified methods for determining the validity of your reasoning; simply saying ‘this will hurt the zone’ doesn’t carry much weight if you can’t support it beyond it just being your opinion.

I think that everyone agrees that there is ‘no going home’ when it come to the way the zone used to be; but this doesn’t mean that we should not learn from past mistakes. What is more important is that the zone ‘features’ (arenas, events, leagues, etc.) grew with each passing year. Now the zone population has decreased but the ‘features’, and the resources needed to run and maintain them, have not and this needs to change.

This is a hard lesson to learn, downsizing sucks in any situation whatever the reason. But, for example, to keep holding events when active player population is at a low number is shortsighted and does much damage to the zone than good. Even at the height of zone popularity it was a mistake to try to be all things to all people. We have an unstable ball of server-side code that has been appended over and over it an attempt to compensate not being able to revise the client. Everyone wh0o plays regularly can see what the result of this has been. Sacrifices have to be made to the breadth of the zone so that it continues to survive; fall back to its core competencies. Get the zone stable and make new player retention as one of the highest priorities.
eph

[CloudHelmut]

What can be said when people respond with ‘this sucks because I don’t like it’? Surely no one believes that this is an argument that will persuade anyone to change their mind. Building an effective argument requires you to put aside personal perspectives and forming a position that cannot be simply written off as someone who is selfishly clueless.

But staff is doing the same in the other direction. Why did you choose the "intent" of staying true to the original design? Why would you pick xradar to strip from shooter ships? You are providing as little justification as the " complainers", while choising not to respond ti thoughtful posts on gameplay like spock's.

[Asmodeus]

But staff is doing the same in the other direction. Why did you choose the "intent" of staying true to the original design? Why would you pick xradar to strip from shooter ships? You are providing as little justification as the " complainers", while choising not to respond ti thoughtful posts on gameplay like spock's.

If you had read my posts you'd know why in regards to the map. As for the ship settings, as mentioned already in this thread, "it was the public vote to return settings with a vote of 2:1." That said, all of these changes aren't set in stone for the rest of the zone's life; they are subject to change. Just because I didn't personally respond to Spock's post does not mean we aren't reading/listening.

[CloudHelmut]

If you had read my posts you'd know why in regards to the map.

Could you point to a specific reasoning you put forth, because I have read your last couple and no, I still don't know why. Why was the "original" better now that pubs were consolidated? Having the map change wrt #players is a great innovation. I am not opposed to any and all change, but the forever completely invisible weasel has always been a stupid thing to have, no matter how nostalgic some are for it. As I said 8 years ago:

It's quite simple. Everyone on the planet knows the stupidest thng about Star Trek was that Klingons & Romulans had cloaking ships, Humans didn't. Yet we were not completely wiped out by either fleet.

Now some of you want to continue the madness here? Madness I say!!

[KrynetiX]

When a change is made - rather than assuming it will never be reversed and I'm killing the zone, you should approach me without yelling at me and logically voice your concern/opinion/idea. I'm looking for ways to balance things, my eyes and ears are wide open. I'm watching pub and reading all of your posts. I am obviously not trying to ruin the zone, I'm trying to balance it.

Nobody is talking to a brick wall here. Dev is actively gathering input from players, and we're reading/considering all of your posts.

[CloudHelmut]

Sorry if you feel yelled at, not my intent. I really just find it baffling why this xradar/weasel settings would be considered balanced. And I know full well they may be reversed. Indeed, if they weren't changed that would be the surprise - this place has changed settings at least 3 times a year since I can remember. lol.

[KrynetiX]

We removed xradar from !buy because Weasels were especially useless. Weasel was changed from small ship to regular size ship before I stepped up. I'm not sure why it was changed, but I didn't want to reverse it right away Things keep getting changed and changed back and I don't want to continue that routine. We are considering putting small x back in.

[jim the chin]

Some changes have been made throughout TW's history and there's always someone upset (case in point) about the changes made. We don't make changes for the sake of change or "for the hell of it."

Didn't say you did...

Rather than rant and complain about the recent changes, if you have some suggestions on how to improve upon the current settings or pub map, please let us know.

Oh I have. You didn't listen then, you won't listen now. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the person in charge now plays levi most of the time and loves LTs. Why else would he bring those super-bombs back and give levis 4 reps? That's insane, but it sure as hell makes it easy to LT doesn't it? I've argued my point on levis and weasels before, but you have someone in charge of pub who is giving the illusion of listening while really just pushing his own agenda on everyone. Was a waste of time to offer my suggestions before, and a waste of time now I've realized who is pulling the strings.

[jim the chin]

What can be said when people respond with ‘this sucks because I don’t like it’? Surely no one believes that this is an argument that will persuade anyone to change their mind. Building an effective argument requires you to put aside personal perspectives and forming a position that cannot be simply written off as someone who is selfishly clueless.

This means that effective reasoning would includes things like why this might hurt new player retention or further reduce existing player population. Huge bonus points if you can suggest quantified methods for determining the validity of your reasoning; simply saying ‘this will hurt the zone’ doesn’t carry much weight if you can’t support it beyond it just being your opinion.

I think that everyone agrees that there is ‘no going home’ when it come to the way the zone used to be; but this doesn’t mean that we should not learn from past mistakes. What is more important is that the zone ‘features’ (arenas, events, leagues, etc.) grew with each passing year. Now the zone population has decreased but the ‘features’, and the resources needed to run and maintain them, have not and this needs to change.

This is a hard lesson to learn, downsizing sucks in any situation whatever the reason. But, for example, to keep holding events when active player population is at a low number is shortsighted and does much damage to the zone than good. Even at the height of zone popularity it was a mistake to try to be all things to all people. We have an unstable ball of server-side code that has been appended over and over it an attempt to compensate not being able to revise the client. Everyone wh0o plays regularly can see what the result of this has been. Sacrifices have to be made to the breadth of the zone so that it continues to survive; fall back to its core competencies. Get the zone stable and make new player retention as one of the highest priorities.
eph

If this is a response to my post about making the place newb-friendly, you can fuck off, read it again, and take some cock from that high horse you're trying to straddle. What a self-righteous heap of twaddle.

[jim the chin]

But staff is doing the same in the other direction. Why did you choose the "intent" of staying true to the original design? Why would you pick xradar to strip from shooter ships? You are providing as little justification as the " complainers", while choising not to respond ti thoughtful posts on gameplay like spock's.

Exactly, he's a hypocrite.

[Izor]

These changes are being made because somewhere along the line this game lost its balance and fun. A lot of people look back to the days of powerful LT's and remember that it was just more fun to play those balanced pubs. The half-assed implementation of a lot of these changes like the whole pub bucks system dug the game into a big hole. It singlehandedly ruined the weasel and the levi by making them unstoppable forces. In the days pre-store people viewed the 1 pixel weasel as a fun addition to the game instead of the lame x you couldnt do anything about except shipchange. The levi became unkillable with limitless reps/ports mid-run and the weasel because unstoppable for flag snipes.

All of the complaining does very little to point out how the game overall is impacted negatively. It's just your own selfish rants about levs ruining your basing. By saying those changes had been made to better the game and undoing them will only ruin it, you are making a very bold assumption that those previous changes were thought through well. As I said above the bot store ruined the weasel and instead of addressing the store, fis decided to attack the ship and completely neuter it. The way I see things the levi change was put in specifically to ruin your basing, or make it more difficult. For far too long this game has been one dimensional in pub. It chased away a lot of players who enjoyed playing anything other than base. If you have legitimate counterpoints to that train of thought you should probably start posting them

[jim the chin]

As I said above the bot store ruined the weasel and instead of addressing the store, fis decided to attack the ship and completely neuter it.

So he was responsible for destroying the weasel was he? A terrier player. Figures.

Look, all I'm calling for is people who aren't biased in favor of particular ships to decide things. That levi we had for a couple of months was brilliant and caused a lot of new people to start playing it (including me). The one-tile weasel was popular too (though slightly over-powered), and all it needed was its rocket or rep removed. What we got was a terrier player destroying a ship he hated (x), and now we have a LT/lev player boosting his favorite ship with ridiculous amounts of specials. Notice how that was the first big change he made too. I just want that kind of bias to stop.

My point on the weasel has been made before. A one-tile ship adds a new dimension to the game-play. It can sneak through gaps in FR and pick off enemy fighters and terrs (that's presumably why fis hated it). It's like an assassin, and there's no other ship that can do that. Don't give it stealth though for obvious reasons. Allow people to learn to use their radar to look out for it. That's what games are about: becoming more skillful and learning how to win, not dying unavoidable deaths to fully cloaked ships. That's my same argument against the super-bomb levs. There's no way to dodge one of those levs bombs. Unavoidable deaths like that are a novelty that quickly gets boring and annoying for most players.

I don't agree with your argument against basing. People played in the base because that's what was most fun. Don't try and force people to play outside it if they don't want to.

[Izor]

I was actually a fan of that lev, but the old one might be more popular with the community. fis hated the weasel as a baser, not a terr or whatever other reason. It was annoying especially when it had 2 rockets, but despite being told several why it was broken she decided to attack the ship for what I felt was her own personal convenience. You're perceiving the old lev to be something that Kryn likes, but I dont think its the case. I see it as him trying to make tough decisions to reverse years of really bad ones.

People did not base in the old pub primarily. The change you see is a direct result of years of meddling with it to get this end product. There was occasionally a pub base game if you looked for it, but when purepub came about it ruined everything. Basers would just wait for purepub to open and the other pubs would be barren, deserted wastelands with the occasional spawner or LT shooting empty walls. This was the first selfish change I can remember to pub on this game. Ever since that point it has been completely downhill. We bled out pubbers that didnt care about basing ever since that point. Something has to be done to fix it or it will continue to spiral out of control.

[Bukkake Surprise]

So...everyone wanted to play without levis and giving them that opportunity ruined the game and chased the players away?

What is selfish about wanting to have a game that won't be ruined by fucking idiots shooting overpowered bombs while you're trying to base? Maybe some people want to play a basing game with a TEAM, not chase LTs by themselves. The levi-free arena was great, because it gave people the ability to choose. Why didn't the non-basers stick to their own arena then? If there were so many of them, the arena would have been full and they wouldn't have left.

I didn't mind the small weasel; what I minded was the fact that it could repel and rocket and keep buying those, and that most people are fucking idiots who don't watch the radar and allowed the weasel to get the flag. It's beyond the ability of the mods to fix that last point, however.

"A lot of people look back to the days of powerful LT's and remember that it was just more fun to play those balanced pubs."

How were those balanced?

"Things keep getting changed and changed back and I don't want to continue that routine. We are considering putting small x back in."

Thus continuing that routine...

Of course the weasel must be changed from its current state, but don't claim that things won't be changed.

"Nobody is talking to a brick wall here. Dev is actively gathering input from players, and we're reading/considering all of your posts."

I've been playing Continuum for many years, and I have a very hard time believing that. If people told fis he was screwing up the game, why did he make the changes anyway?

"If you see racism against whites, or any other color for that matter, please send in a ?cheater call so that it may be dealt with."

That kind of thing went on with mods present, so I doubt they'll do anything when called.

"As for TKers, there is a system in place to handle them."

Yeah, a really shitty system.

"Staff simply can't take the word of someone and act on it - a system like that could be abused."

Why is a moderator trustworthy and someone else not? Do you do background checks on anyone who applies for staff? Do you tie them with your lasso of truth?

What's abused is the patience of those who have to put up with repeat TKers.

In this forum and in-game you have staff claiming they care about what people say and that they will deal with TKers. If staff can't take the word of someone, why should I take the word of staff? Especially when I get TKed by the same asshole again three days later.

"Or its people like you who havent been saying all along that these changes pub has had to endure have been terrible."

Did anybody ask me? And would anybody have cared?

"I've said the same things people in these most recent threads have been saying for months, but as long as it was 'just that troll' saying them I might as well have been talking to a brick wall."

Well, there you go. That would have been me instead of you.

Most of the people who bother with the forums are those who have been playing a long time and the scumbag trolls who want to ruin the game for everyone, so they sign up and whine until the mods say "it was a 2:1 vote" and fuck up the game. How many people even voted? How many people out of the whole player base? It was a 2:1 vote with 5% voter participation. What kind of bullshit vote is that?

"I see it as him trying to make tough decisions to reverse years of really bad ones."

Yeah, the very tough decision of fucking up the game with clearly overpowered ships and saying "it was a 2:1 vote, so don't blame me". It takes real character to take a stand and make tough decisions like that.

Many people don't bother with the forums because they know nobody gives a shit about what they think. You know that nobody gives a shit about what you think from personal experience. Why do you keep posting? The triumph of hope over experience? Or you pop on here while you're waiting for the timer so you can buy more repels?

[jim the chin]

I was actually a fan of that lev, but the old one might be more popular with the community. fis hated the weasel as a baser, not a terr or whatever other reason.

Well I'm a baser and I loved the 1-tile weasel. I remember using it to kill her terr in fr. I guess she finally took out her rage on the ship.

You're perceiving the old lev to be something that Kryn likes, but I dont think its the case. I see it as him trying to make tough decisions to reverse years of really bad ones.

Well, I'd be surprised. I think it was Kryn's first big change, and he gave the thing 4 reps as well! Some people just love LT's, even though they tend to kill the team game. When half your frequency is flying around in the middle of nowhere, you're horribly outnumbered. Then when one of them tks you by firing randomly at base, it's pretty much the last straw.

But, in every zone you get people who like sitting at a safe distance and spamming bombs down holes or at the base. It's moronic, and I'm surprised that people spend so many hours of their life doing it. However, rather than telling them to bugger off, we could give them an avenue for it that doesn't annoy the hell out of everyone who's trying to play the basing game.

When people were given the opportunity to base, they did. If spawners had fewer people to kill after those changes, that doesn't mean they should be reversed. If ending the super-powered LT's made the basing game flourish, let it flourish!

The veterans use LT's in pub for a bit of fun when they're done playing the `serious' events. I think everyone knows that. They hardly care about it anyway, but they get the biggest say when it comes to deciding what happens, so here we are.

I don't know why I'm arguing though. I've pretty much stopped playing TW after all these changes.