TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[Exalt]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too. I'm not saying that I know every single thing that goes on these days, but I do know a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I didn't just hear about it, I did it. I have/had a very good handle on how staff works and who does what, and a first hand view of what the problems were, and undoubtedly still are. I was on staff when Wark and LF were there, we were in pure_luck's corner the entire time the SSC thing was going on, I was there for all of it. That's not some sad ass play for e-kudos or anything, I'm just saying I know what goes on because I've been there and I've done that. I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops. And I quit over the way staff, already inefficient at best, tanked when 4o was promoted all the way up to smod. I quit when M_M God became less and less involved. I quit when Poid took over and saw the way long time, still producing staffers (see Lizard Fuel) were run off. More than most, I know the problems that happen at the top and affect the entire zone. I know what CAN be accomplished, but more importantly, I have a very good reason to believe that I'm right when I say I can produce a very good guess as to the large gap that will occur between what can occur and what will occur.

Trust me exalt, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass on this one.

I never said you didn't know anything Paul. Never said that at all man. You know I know you well enough. I know you aren't ignorant.

All I'm saying is that I saw what the potential of the council could be in that chat the other day, and I was highly impressed by it. Everyone who was there for that chat left impressed by it. The only people left bashing the council at this point are the people who were NOT there for the chat. I honestly wish I had logged it. I would have had I known it would turn out into being what it did.

As a matter of fact, IF you've noticed, even Kthx has changed his tune a lil bit about this council and is now even saying in other threads that he will join the council and give it his full attention if certain things are done. Before, he was saying there was no way he would ever join it at all. None. He changed his tune simply based on what that chat gave.

It IS worth our time. It IS worth my time. If it isn't worth YOUR time, then stop bashing it and go do something else. That's all I'm trying to say.

Here, look:

If its feasible I say first threaten the SSC and if that doesn't work then go to each zones ownership personally and offer the invitation to join our new zone with somewhat equal majority. Any zones that join offer their respected players and staffers (respected) chances to get on the council were creating, and have the council control not just changes within the zone but actually run the entire zone. Obviously we will still need "bang" ops and other people who have powers that not everyone on the council can have or understand, but generally speaking get rid of the role of sysops, and deans and every other "power" role in staff. Staff applications, promotions within staff from ZH to ER everything is decided by the council. Get rid of mods, have a few Smods on who are knowledgeable with the bot systems and who have direct numbers of people to call when the billing server dies or when the zone needs to be recycled etc. If this ends up happening I see you talking about a new way to run the zone in terms of what we can do with the physical aspect of the zone, but it is also a chance to change the soul of the zone itself. I think that staff needs to be completely erased basically and that there need to be only ZH's, ER's, Dev, Smods, Bangops and The Council itself. I can't speak for everyone but a change like that would honestly get me interested in being a part of the council itself, and would probably get me into playing again as I could see a future for this zone.

Todays shitfest was just another prime example of how our staff procedures have run their course in every way, shape, and fashion. This could fix the zones image and make the game a less corrupted place with a council that would be incorruptible with the right mix of players.

And Paul... I know you were one of the few really good staffers we've seen in this zone. I'm not trying to discredit anything you've done in the past or even will do in the future. Not at all. I appreciate and respect what you've tried to do, and I agree with the reasons why you quit staff in the first place. We are in complete agreement with all of that. The only thing I disagree with you about is the POTENTIAL of what this council could do and become. I believe in it's potential. I really do.

[the_paul]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too. I'm not saying that I know every single thing that goes on these days, but I do know a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I didn't just hear about it, I did it. I have/had a very good handle on how staff works and who does what, and a first hand view of what the problems were, and undoubtedly still are. I was on staff when Wark and LF were there, we were in pure_luck's corner the entire time the SSC thing was going on, I was there for all of it. That's not some sad ass play for e-kudos or anything, I'm just saying I know what goes on because I've been there and I've done that. I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops. And I quit over the way staff, already inefficient at best, tanked when 4o was promoted all the way up to smod. I quit when M_M God became less and less involved. I quit when Poid took over and saw the way long time, still producing staffers (see Lizard Fuel) were run off. More than most, I know the problems that happen at the top and affect the entire zone. I know what CAN be accomplished, but more importantly, I have a very good reason to believe that I'm right when I say I can produce a very good guess as to the large gap that will occur between what can occur and what will occur.

Trust me exalt, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass on this one.

[Exalt]

Paul... I don't know... I was in pub the other day with Demonic, Kthx, a bunch of staff members, and some other legitimate knowledgeable players, and what we did was brainstorm, trade ideas, and discuss things that are currently being worked on/implemented, ideas that people WANT to be worked on/implemented, problems/obstacles that have to be overcome, and possible solutions to those problems. It was VERY productive in a lot of ways. I know everyone wants to knock it, but the people that do knock it are the ones that weren't there to see it. It was a great chat. Everyone involved stated that it was the best chat they've seen in trenchwars in easily 10 years. It wasn't even close. Demonic and other staff members were being completely transparent with everything they had planned or wanted to do, including the various problems they face.

One discussion was about switching to a new billing server, switching to ASSS, etc. One was about jabjabjab's 70% finished, working beta continuum client that runs on java. It would replace continuum as we know it and allow many new and improved features. Another was about growing the current player base. Another was about how to keep the new players that come (There are about 15 new players on average a day that log into trenchwars that are legit NEW, not old aliased players). A discussion was had on why some stay and why some leave, and how to prevent them from leaving. Some players simply could not figure out the control scheme, so a discussion was had about the code in continuum and how to maybe either create an in-game training bot (one already exists), or remaking the old off-line training arena that the subspace client had before the switch to continuum. Continuum is an exact rip of subspace, but with protections to cover the fact that the code was completely stolen. The code for that old off-line arena is still there somewhere.

Anyways, it went on for like 4 hours. I can't even name everything that was discussed, but it was a great conversation, and I learned a lot of new things I didn't know before. I even gained a new perspective on the issues Demonic (for instance) has to face on the daily, which gives me a new found respect for Demo in a lot of ways. The entire thing was productive and worthwhile.

So stop bashing something you haven't seen and was not there for. The council COULD be exactly what happened in that chat, along with voting powers and the ability to make those changes HAPPEN. If the council alone is simply something like a discussion between Representatives ala a Congress for subspace players, it would be worth the time, worth the trouble, and a great thing.

Like I said, stop bashing something if you weren't there to see exactly how effective and amazing this can become. If you don't want to try it, then don't fucking try it. Go play continuum and mind your own business. Let the people that do care about the zone and do want to get things done worry about that. You go do nothing and bitch about things to yourself instead of saying nothing will ever work and why try and blah blah blah.

[the_paul]

Umm, pretty sure while you were gone some of us did tons of shit. Also yeah basically PL got fucked over by SSC around the same time as the TWBR and FieryFire debacle. Go back and read four years worth of forum threads and posts and see what happened during that time before you want to point fingers at those of us who won't join the signup for the council. We all have our reasons.

I remember all of this. I still have those logs from the private arenas saved somewhere.

There's plenty more that can be said about the biggest problems coming from the way that staff is structured, but I'm pretty everyone already knows that that ship sailed a long time ago. I'll give you a hint though: to everyone blaming the "questionable new hires" you're looking in entirely the wrong direction. The biggest problems on staff happen to have been staff for quite a long period of time. With the exception of 4o. He was knew and he was a grade A fuckhead, you're right about him. What ideas can this council even preach? To vote to spend the 4 (?) year old donation money? To vote on who should be in what position in staff? What changes can the council really vote on that are going to make any difference? One of the biggest changes that could do some good for the zone would be a staff overhaul, mainly at the top of the staff food chain. But guess who would have to implement those changes? I just don't see what anyone thinks that this council can realistically change. As far as I can see, this council is just another way that the players will be able to disappointed by staff yet again.

Also:

also im proud to have used cuntstop and shitdick in consecutive posts. thats real leadership.

this is probably the best post in this entire thread.

[Izor]

Uh, last I remembered for a conversation to be productive something would have to come out of it. So far you have 0. The last move I considered to be productive was hiring krynetix to pub since he seemed to have a mindset of balancing gameplay, but unfortunately when I've tried to play recently I just get banned so I lost interest pretty quickly. I would love to see how that's panned out though. This is just the same circular conversations that have been going on for the last few years about vague actions that need to be taken and the same people are not taking them.

I said a few months ago that staff at the very top was the downfall and stand by it. There is no clear direction from the top down to push this game in any direction but status quo. We made a decent push to get donation money, none of which the community has seen put to use besides pizza tournies and server maintenance. A council run by mostly staff and yes men will do little to change the core problem here. The fact that you're seeing players who are eager (and imo able) to make that difference back down and/or not sign up in the first place reflects the fact that they also see how useless the concept will be. A competent staff should be able to make the correct changes without asking the players in the first place. It's just a cop out for why the game isnt going in the right direction to say "well the council made up of X players along with staff came to this decision."

[Exalt]

i'm pretty sure i clearly stated that my main issue is the lack of time i have to put into this council business, but i do feel that what little time i do have would be better spent elsewhere because i still have no confidence in this setup, and that's actually primarily due to a point that ephemeral, for whatever reason, outlined as a positive. in this scenario, i don't like the fact that the sysops unfailingly echo each other's sentiments, sometimes seemingly without much (or any) thought. i would prefer to see some occasional healthy disagreement among the higher-ups instead of a weak stream of "me toos" every time one speaks up. and even if the sysops learn to start disagreeing, considering that one future staff-side council member is currently under heavy fire for acting more like a mall cop than a league op, i know i'm not alone in knowing that he especially will mindlessly follow the votes of those higher than him in the zone food chain so as to protect his fragile position of internet authority, thereby costing the council its integrity right out of the gate.

besides, kthx has pretty much said all that's needed to be said about this entire ordeal. this council wouldn't even be necessary if those in charge hadn't spent the last several years actively shooting down decent ideas in favor of strokes of genius like using donation money to sign zenabee up for cam sites and send her a subspace poster to hang up behind her for advertisement purposes.

again, best of luck, but no thanks to those calling for me to apply, and don't bother nominating me after the fact.

Alright PH, I can respect that.. I just think you'd do a lot of good on the council thing, even if it's just for shits and giggles to see if it works or not. If it doesn't work, so what? No skin off anyone's backs. If it does work though, it could be a good tool at least. I just know you and Kthx both can do a lot of good on there, due to both being respected players and charismatic personalities. You guys are persuasive and good at debating legitimate arguments, and shutting down people with flawed logic.

Basically... You are both the opposite of what pee pee sock brings to the table.

[PH]

Why are there no good candidates? "KTHX WON'T JOIN AKFJSAFA" "PH WONT JOIN AIFJDALFJDA"

Why won't Kthx and PH join? "DEMONIC IS SO MEAN" *whine, cry, moan like a bitch*

i'm pretty sure i clearly stated that my main issue is the lack of time i have to put into this council business, but i do feel that what little time i do have would be better spent elsewhere because i still have no confidence in this setup, and that's actually primarily due to a point that ephemeral, for whatever reason, outlined as a positive. in this scenario, i don't like the fact that the sysops unfailingly echo each other's sentiments, sometimes seemingly without much (or any) thought. i would prefer to see some occasional healthy disagreement among the higher-ups instead of a weak stream of "me toos" every time one speaks up. and even if the sysops learn to start disagreeing, considering that one future staff-side council member is currently under heavy fire for acting more like a mall cop than a league op, i know i'm not alone in knowing that he especially will mindlessly follow the votes of those higher than him in the zone food chain so as to protect his fragile position of internet authority, thereby costing the council its integrity right out of the gate.

besides, kthx has pretty much said all that's needed to be said about this entire ordeal. this council wouldn't even be necessary if those in charge hadn't spent the last several years actively shooting down decent ideas in favor of strokes of genius like using donation money to sign zenabee up for cam sites and send her a subspace poster to hang up behind her for advertisement purposes.

again, best of luck, but no thanks to those calling for me to apply, and don't bother nominating me after the fact.

[kthx]

Its the same shit ive been saying for years, you don't need me on the council to do it.

[Exalt]

Umm, pretty sure while you were gone some of us did tons of shit. Also yeah basically PL got fucked over by SSC around the same time as the TWBR and FieryFire debacle. Go back and read four years worth of forum threads and posts and see what happened during that time before you want to point fingers at those of us who won't join the signup for the council. We all have our reasons.

Ok well.....

Kthx... Demonic... Rest of you... think we just had the best/most productive chat in TW that I've seen in 10 years. Not kidding. For those of you that didn't see it, you missed out. Was legit.

All I'm gonna say is... For those that did see it... that's what this council could be. We all bounced ideas off each other, brainstormed, gave problems/solutions, ways to help the game, better it, make it more fun, etc, etc, etc. It actually distracted me from real life shit for hours. I didn't even wanna log off to end it.

All I'm saying is... forget the voting for a second. The council could be a great way to brainstorm and find new ideas to make things better. Afterword? Yeah, have a vote and do our best to implement it. It CAN work. Kthx and Demonic, you both even discussed things rationally together and came up with some great ideas together. This stuff worked. The proof was in the chat. Wish I had logged it actually.

So... I hope some people saw it and see what it COULD become. I know a lot of good staff members joined in and added to the conversation as well. It was worth my time having that conversation too. Unlike forums, where these things tend to get ignored, or they take too long to get processed, it all happened in real time and was productive.

So... I hope everyone can collectively look at this thing and take it seriously. And Kthx.. I hope you apply man. You know I want you on the council.

[kthx]

Umm, pretty sure while you were gone some of us did tons of shit. Also yeah basically PL got fucked over by SSC around the same time as the TWBR and FieryFire debacle. Go back and read four years worth of forum threads and posts and see what happened during that time before you want to point fingers at those of us who won't join the signup for the council. We all have our reasons.

[Exalt]

Not an easy answer, most of this is second hand so is likely to be close to the truth but not necessarily exact.

Along time ago, PL managed to piss of the entire SSC and basically had his BanG completely removed (won't say anymore as it really does become heresay after that). This alienated TW from the SSC op's at the time (approx. 3/4 years ago). Since then Space was removed/quit (dunno which) from sysop by PL and was promptly then promoted to netop by SSC. Spacehiker remains the only netop who actually plays TW, mom does occasionaly but mostly is in EG. Space is limited by time constraints, as he allured to quite recently which leaves us with 1. I believe Polix/MiketheNose etc still hold netop (maybe ratio) but no longer play. Since the incident TW has never been considered for netop to my knowledge, or have had the subject broached. Hell we don't even have anyone on the subspace council.

Anyways not a lot of answers in there, but as I said I want to avoid heresay if possible and if I am honest I believe Kthx actually know's more of this situation then I do, as I vaguely remember him being staff at the time and doing some investigation style work into it, thinking PL was about to get screwed over/banned what have you.

So basically, Trenchwars (being the only viable zone left in a dying game) has no SSC ops due to the old SSC ops being useless fucks with grudges? So they will never promote someone from Trenchwars, even when Trenchwars will be the last zone left? That makes a hell of a lot of sense. Useless staff holding grudges on a sinking ship. Sounds familiar. That's the entire history of subspace staff right there, from every zone.

Could they be any more pathetic at this point? Who holds a grudge for 4 years even after their zones have died out? EG maybe has 40 people on tops at peak time. What the fuck is the point of an SSC op being an op of a zone that nobody plays?

[Demonic]

Qan,
Please remove me from the candidate list, I am no longer interested in being part of a council. I have lost faith that the council has any chance of improving TW.

Only in the last week have I been made aware that of the gap between those that control TW and those that control the billing server. It appears that there exists not only a lack of any influence but complete breakdown in any communications. For whatever reason(s) this important aspect of being able to control the future of TW is broken. Perhaps Demonic, M_M or beasty can speak to the reasons; it could be that this is simply a political thing, it could be that the Billing sys ops are ‘old school’ players from zones that really don’t give a shit/resent about TW, it could be things that I have no knowledge about.

But what does it matter? Bottom line is that the council is even further removed then I thought from being able to improve the zone in substantial ways.
eph

Not an easy answer, most of this is second hand so is likely to be close to the truth but not necessarily exact.

Along time ago, PL managed to piss of the entire SSC and basically had his BanG completely removed (won't say anymore as it really does become heresay after that). This alienated TW from the SSC op's at the time (approx. 3/4 years ago). Since then Space was removed/quit (dunno which) from sysop by PL and was promptly then promoted to netop by SSC. Spacehiker remains the only netop who actually plays TW, mom does occasionaly but mostly is in EG. Space is limited by time constraints, as he allured to quite recently which leaves us with 1. I believe Polix/MiketheNose etc still hold netop (maybe ratio) but no longer play. Since the incident TW has never been considered for netop to my knowledge, or have had the subject broached. Hell we don't even have anyone on the subspace council.

Anyways not a lot of answers in there, but as I said I want to avoid heresay if possible and if I am honest I believe Kthx actually know's more of this situation then I do, as I vaguely remember him being staff at the time and doing some investigation style work into it, thinking PL was about to get screwed over/banned what have you.

[Exalt]

I agree largely with what you're saying exalt....but this is all mighty fine coming from you who has only just returned from like 4 years away from the game? Where was your commitment? Also god forbid if pee pee sock is actually being considered by anyone realistically.

I quit for like 4 years, true... but so what? Where has Kthx/PH been in the last 5 years? Before I quit, Kthx and PH were long gone and just logged in to forums. I'm back now, and that's all that matters. Beyond that, I STILL care about this game even after all this time.

Either way, I find it highly disrespectful for people to mock this entire thing due to Demonic, when the ONLY person this is hurting is qan. Qan is one of the VERY FEW good staff members this game has (I think you are among them Ricko), and he clearly stated he was going to quit if this thing fails due to the players being disrespectful faggots. If Qan quits, who is going to replace him on staff? Do people think staff members with skills like his just fall out of the sky? Do they think even if they can find people with his skill set, that they will give 1/10th of the dedication that Qan gives on the daily?

Once he gets pushed into quitting by moronic players with no respect, this game is another giant leap towards it's grave. That's just a simple fact, so I mine as well quit for good again after that. You won't find anyone like Qan again. Not anymore.

[Ricko]

I agree largely with what you're saying exalt....but this is all mighty fine coming from you who has only just returned from like 4 years away from the game? Where was your commitment? Also god forbid if pee pee sock is actually being considered by anyone realistically.

[Exalt]

nothing new here eph.

im voting for pee pee sock now.

Cres... Quit shitting on Qan man. He's doing his fucking best. It isn't his fault that fucking faggot pee pee sock applied. I will however say that if pee pee sock gets elected to this thing because of you fucking people giving bullshit to the wrong people, GOOD people like Qan... and ruining his hard work by adding faggots like that...

I'll quit this game again, and for good. So you can say goodbye to me too. Qan already said he'd quit if this fails, and I'm quitting if you morons ruin it for him on purpose. I swear to God, the ignorance is so widespread, the lack of appreciation for ANYTHING qan has been trying to do... it's fucking sickening.

You guys all wanna know why this game is dying? Seriously? You blame staff, but at least they try something. I used to blame staff too, until I look at all the stupid fucks in this thread who have egos the size of fucking texas but balls the size of rhode island.

YOU GUYS are the reason this game is dying. The players that mock everything and ruin it with stupid fucking cynicism. Grow a fucking pair of nuts and do something yourself if you think you can do better.


And Eph... I lost all respect for you now. All of it. Fucking quitters, whiners, babies. All of you. The only excuses I've heard from you people are that "THERE ARE NO GOOD CANDIDATES" *whine, cry, moan like a bitch* EDIT: Okay, I was a bit harsh Eph... I just don't wanna see you quit the council. You bring legitimacy to it and that is needed. Not many great candidates applied yet, and you are one of the few. I won't edit what I wrote, even if it was just me being a bit angry at everything (kinda like you were angry too, same deal), but still... hope you reconsider.

Why are there no good candidates? "KTHX WON'T JOIN AKFJSAFA" "PH WONT JOIN AIFJDALFJDA"

Why won't Kthx and PH join? "DEMONIC IS SO MEAN" *whine, cry, moan like a bitch*


I can't stand people with no respect. The only person you've been hurting is qan here, and he's one of the good guys. You aren't hurting demonic at all, and you certainly aren't helping this zone whatsoever. I hope when this thing fails, PriitK decides to shut the fucking server down for good.


And qan: I'm sorry that Trenchwars is full of so many disrespectful faggots with brains the size of their microscopic nutsacks. I respect what you've been trying to do, and I'm apologize I can't do anything to make it better.