TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[megaman89]

Lol exalt...I gave you a "dislike" for one reason only, to see your response. I wanted to see if you were still a loud mouthed faggot and you didn't disappoint. I'm fine with people who speak up and talk shit because that's all I do in the game but the one thing I can't stand is when people with 0 talent like yourself do it, it's just annoying. If you think I don't care about the zone you're both dumb and wrong. I brought back dice this season to supply some competition for TWL, if you didn't notice Pandora won all 3 leagues last season which was pathetic and only happened due to lack of aforementioned competition. Everyone in the zone knows my name, from new pubbers to 10+ year vets. I just had a guy that was playing for a month watch me in a jd and pm me after asking if I can give him some tips since he heard I was the best (he actually thought that the bomb on a jav was just a big bullet). What did I do? I gave him some pointers instead of saying "go away ez newb" which is what I can picture you saying. I don't need to write useless paragraphs on here or think of ideas to bring a nearly 20 year old game back to life. Just my presence and activity in the game will do more to help it than anything you can ever possibly do.

[Ephemeral]

...That is why, (I forget who had the original idea) that people should be elected from all different aspects of pub and put in categories...

FYI, I had a short stay in staff about 6 months ago but before I left I pushed for (and posted one of my trademarked long winded diatribes) in the staff forum about the need to have the player base represented on staff. I outlined that the real ‘power’ in the zone was not the ability to send zoners or host events but rather really resided with those who were making the decisions. I had several discussion with the Deans and those in power on this topic.
Although I suggested that the entire staff should be elected positions, Demonic, Beasty, M-M and Qan have hammered out a pretty good solution with this council. Old habits die hard and change is never easy; kudos to them for having the balls to try to change the way the zone is managed. The foundation for change is finally being laid; time will tell if it is too late.
eph

[Spock!]

I have a question for anybody qualified to answer it:

How/where will the actual voting be taking place?
Is it going to be in this forum, or perhaps TWD site?

IMO, both of those will be rather biased venues for voting. As it is, many players don't have a forum/TWD account, and as a result many might not even vote because it.

I always thought a voting process inside pub would be a good Idea, if cheating can be avoided. That way people will not have to go outside the game to vote, and it will likely be less biased since people from all sides of TW can access it easily. I guess it could be set up kind of like the Leviathan voting polls in pub where a while back ago, with some minor tweaking.

Live Long and Prosper.

[Exalt]

Lol exalt...I gave you a "dislike" for one reason only, to see your response. I wanted to see if you were still a loud mouthed faggot and you didn't disappoint.

+1 for that

My point remains the same, and you actually validated it. Your reason for the dislike proves that this voting system is flawed. You don't give a shit about the outcome as far as who would be right or wrong in this thing. You only care about personal agendas,however flawed, moronic, and dickish they may be. Thank you for proving my point.

also

Just my presence and activity in the game will do more to help it than anything you can ever possibly do.

Megaman89, apparently you don't realize how the large majority of TW thinks ur a faggot, strongly dislikes you, and half ur squad even dislikes u but remains largely silent to your face due to you being the captain of a (most likely) TWLB finalist squad. Dice also has a very good reputation in terms of talent in LB, but you are a baser (albiet a talented one) pure and simple and you aren't a likable person whatsoever. You aren't intelligent, you aren't charismatic, and you aren't someone that has ever struck me as someone that gave a fuck about anything or anyone but yourself. Since I'm not going to have a pissing contest in an actual productive forum thread, I'll just say that being the captain of Dice means jack-shit in terms of what this "idea" of a Council really should be. Quicksand was and is a much more popular squad and it was always a 1 league, LD squad. You don't see Izor acting like he is the greatest thing since slice bread, even when he was probably one of the top 5 best captains this game has ever seen, which I'm willing to bet anyone that ever joined QS will admit, even if they dislike him. The same goes for Kthx who was probably the top 5 best staff member this game has ever seen as well, and also an original member of Quicksand and a founding captain. I think I was a founding captain as well in 2003 in the first Quicksand, but I personally don't give much of a shit. I was never a captain-type player to want or need that to stroke my e-dick, but to each their own. Your ego alone is reason to prove you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Your head is too far up your ass to do a damn thing to help this zone, and if you think a Dice remake really did jack shit other than have half the basers and javs join the bench on your squad in hopes of another ring instead of seeing multiple different squads (even if less talented) playing LB/LJ, you are even a bigger moron than I originally thought.

By the way MM89, thank you for being stupid enough to prove my point for me. For nostalgic reasons: EZ n00b

And let's be honest here: The only player that could really do anything to garner more activity and competition in this league and get some old elites back and REALLY make a difference simply by remaking a squad would be Epi remaking Elusive or -Final- or something. Dice is a small blimp in the grand scheme of things, and definitely not something I've heard anyone give a fuck about. In that scale, if With Ease left for years and then remade Thunder or Da1andonly came back and all the guys from Disoblige remade, or if THE PUSHER and the rest of them all came back and remade Pallies (that's probably the best remake I could think of), THEN you'd see some excitement and people wanting to come back. As for you and Dice??? You aren't jack shit in the scheme of things. Nobody really gives a fuck about you, and Dice is a team not a one-man show. You are way too full of yourself and nowhere near as important as you clearly think you are. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic and sad.

I also added a #9 to my application:


9. I don't expect to win at all, because there are a lot of players that dislike me, and there are a lot of fgts named megaman89, but even with that being said, I'm throwing my name in to set an example for other people, and hopefully people will take this seriously. I don't find it funny when you guys jokingly add your name and say "vote 4 meh giuyz bcuz I dunt give a fuk." This is actually something that seems important. That being said, I've asked other players in TW that I think would be good fits to add their names to the ballot. It means I'll most likely lose, because I told people about this that I know are much more popular than me, but I also know they will have legitimate ideas and they will want to make the game better as much as I do. Therefore, feel free to downvote me or whatever, but take the other people seriously that actually show they give a fuck.

[Shaddowknight]

It would probably be in-game based on twd account (to keep it legit from those players with 700 names being able to skew results). Its easier to get someone to sign up for twd in-game than dick around with forums. Keeping it in-game is better, but we have to do something of this sort to keep the votes honest

[Shaddowknight]

If this were all players, they would make 15 decisions, only to have sysops veto 18 of them, and make it pointless. They are working WITH the people in power, not against or being basically a "brainstorm council"

[Exalt]

If this were all players, they would make 15 decisions, only to have sysops veto 18 of them, and make it pointless. They are working WITH the people in power, not against or being basically a "brainstorm council"

Whose to say this wont happen anyways? A sysop can veto everyone just because, assuming any sysop is ever active and online anytime within the next decade to do so. When was the last time anyone has seen P_L in this game? You mine as well call Dock and PriitK up, if anyone still HAS their contact info, and you'd have a better chance of getting one of them active over half of sysops. C'mon now, if they were active, this idea probably wouldn't be happening right now.

Beyond that, a brainstorm council sounds pretty close to what this is, and honestly, I don't see how that is entirely a bad thing. It also probably should be something that might possibly get something DONE in this game with a coordinated effort, assuming everyone that gets voted in actually gives a fuck and actively inspires to do a good job. That is also up in the air, and with this being a political/popularity contest, I doubt you'll have many great people coming in wanting to put in their time and effort into making the zone a better place. It's hard enough to find 10 people who all agree to play TWD or WBDUEL together these days, and those are popularity contests as well more or less. I don't see many people in here that give a fuck to be honest, and there are people that just throw their name in and say 'I don't actually give two shits, didn't read anything about this, and I'll never actually log in to participate, but vote for me" and I'm sure they will get upvoted.

Meanwhile, you have a player like Spock!, who granted I've never heard of and probably nobody else really has either (I don't play public), but his post alone shows he gives a fuck what happens, he would be dedicated, and he cares. Then you have megaman89 downvoting people because they are "newbs" or because he wants to get a rise out of someone (me), rather than actually giving a fuck whatsoever. Add a player like him in and see how quickly this thing falls apart. Look at the dude's ego. He acts like he's fucking PriitK or something. It's pretty pathetic to be honest, and I feel sad for anyone that still gives a fuck about how they are perceived in this game (like thinking his activity in TWL makes a world of difference in this game) after we have ALL grown up (well, most of us anyways) and became adults.

Shaddow I like you and think you have good ideas and good points, but I still stick to my thought process that staff shouldn't be involved in the voting process. I guess I can say that I also can argue for the opposite end like you are, in that even "I don't see why not, because it possibly wouldn't do a bit of harm" and honestly, maybe it wouldn't. If you have staff members that actually give a shit, then possibly it would do some good, but I'm strongly against going with the status quo of things, because we've had the same status quo since 1998 since Subspace became F2P. Staff needs things shaken up sometimes too just to get fresh ideas in. They need someone telling them to step their game up or to resign if they aren't going to be active and care.

What I'm saying is this game has been slowly dying for years and years now, and nothing has really changed much the entire time. The best thing that has happened to Trenchwars in the last decade was.... TWLM? Since it's 2014, you can only go back to 2004. Before that, the best thing that truly changed the face of Trenchwars was TWD being invented. That drastically changed the population of TW and MADE this game what it is. I truly believe without TWD, Trenchwars would be another DSB zone right now. It would be dead. We need to figure out some new, fresh approach to things in that kind of mold that will bring back old players and make people CARE again. Make them WANT to play and be active again. Keeping things the same is NOT going to work. That's the definition of insanity, to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I have plenty of ideas, but I no longer give them out freely when they just get ignored by staff due to them not even wanting to TRY anything new. It's sickening to me really. THIS is the reason I'm actually showing I give a fuck right now. I want something drastic and new to happen and to shake things up in trenchwars. I want to see a day we actually have over 200+ people in this zone for once. I'm tired of logging in and seeing 5 people total not including bots playing outside of pub, and seeing pub with 30 afkers and 5 players outside of spec. This needs to change, and the only way to change it is to brainstorm, find a solution of some kind, and to put it into action. We need another TWD type invention.

This all being said, I honestly believe everyone needs to get over their fucking petty bias' against one another, their fucking flame war bullshit against some random player they called a newbie 10 years ago, and whatever other grudges they all may have against each other, and we need to finally work together and make this fucking game something better than it is. I don't want this shit to die, because a lot of my early childhood was spent playing this game, and I grew up with a lot of the players in this game. I have legitimate friendships outside of this game that formed through players in subspace. I think that's a worthy thing to keep alive, and so I'm actually willing to put my time and effort, blood, sweat, and tears so to speak into doing whatever I CAN do in keeping this shit alive. I actually don't want to just keep it alive, but to make it better.

Saying all that, I don't give a fuck if someone like megaman89 shits all over me for caring, or trying. At least I do and will try, while people like him will continue the fucking stupid status quo of calling everyone a newbie in a fucking 2d spaceship game that was made in 1997. All it honestly shows is he hasn't been outside in the real world in ages, or better yet, he HAS been outside and he's a fucking virgin loser with EXTREME self-confidence issues in real life. He counts facebook and twitter friends as the meaning to his pathetic life, and he counts how many kills he gets in TWL as a truly meaningful thing in his life. I could understand that mindset when we were all 12 year old kids hitting puberty and wanting to prove our balls were finally dropped and our dicks were bigger, but at our age? At this point in most of our lives? It's counter-productive to the health of this game in every way even if you ignore the obvious pathetic side of it in the lack of self-esteem players like him must have in real life. Grow the fuck up and either do something, or shut the fuck up and let the adults have a legitimate conversation.


Btw

FYI, I had a short stay in staff about 6 months ago but before I left I pushed for (and posted one of my trademarked long winded diatribes) in the staff forum about the need to have the player base represented on staff. I outlined that the real ‘power’ in the zone was not the ability to send zoners or host events but rather really resided with those who were making the decisions. I had several discussion with the Deans and those in power on this topic.
Although I suggested that the entire staff should be elected positions, Demonic, Beasty, M-M and Qan have hammered out a pretty good solution with this council. Old habits die hard and change is never easy; kudos to them for having the balls to try to change the way the zone is managed. The foundation for change is finally being laid; time will tell if it is too late.
eph

This is something I can respect, which is one of the many reasons I voted for you Eph. I don't really know you as a player, but I can tell you give a fuck by your posts, and that's mainly what I'm looking for. All ideas are good ideas, so even if someone that is a clueless dumbass somehow gets voted into the council (i'm sure someone will fit that mold), as long as they give a fuck, they show they care and they act on that, and they give out those bad ideas they have, at least they are doing something. The idea that the player base needs a say-so in this game has been around ever since staff took over things back in like 97/98, but actually getting it done? Mad props. This game needs people like you in STAFF, and if not that, then the Council is the next best thing. It's like me, I know I'll never become staff based on my past reputation and maybe even my current one (I've only been back for a small while now, so maybe I don't even have a current one), but maybe I could get something done and have my voice heard through this council. It's why I'm at least trying, even with very little hope of actually succeeding. Anyway Eph, I hope you get in.

[Ephemeral]

In excising a veto the person will be expending political capital. In other words, it will quickly become apparent that this person is blocking the council’s wishes. So while it may be true that veto's could become a problem I am thinking (hoping?) that it is not very likely.
eph

[qan]

All discussion posts in Council candidate thread moved here.

[qan]

Here's some clarification points:

• No voting is going on right now. If you up/downvote someone in the candidate thread, it doesn't mean anything other than the usual forum upvote/downvote. Voting will take place using TWD logins. Before voting begins, members of the community who may not have TWD accounts will be encouraged to register.
• You can't nominate anyone; they need to post themselves if they want to run.
• Current staff members will have a vote. Here's why it should be this way (in my opinion). 98% of staff have no say in the running of this zone. None. Hell, some members of upper staff have only a tiny little say in how things get done. I'm lucky to be a coder and have a bit more leeway in terms of pushing changes on the dev level ... but I've never had much of an actual policy say in the 10+ on/off years I've been staff, in part because I've always been a coder. (To clarify what that means: if you have a non-policy role, i.e., are not "admin staff," the highest level you can reach is development sysop, meaning you mostly just have a say in matters of development, not policy. If you want to be an admin sysop, you generally seem to need to get there by taking on extra admin work, then getting promoted to upper staff, then getting put in charge of something that requires a lot of involvement such as Head Bang Op or Dean of Staff, and then waiting ever so long until a sysop role opens up for you, at which point you can happily retire and get in the way of everyone else doing their job below you, just like the people before you got in the way of your work. Then you get bored because there's no place further up to go -- you've "made it"; you're the King! -- and so you retire, leaving the job open for the next person to get in the way of everyone else trying to help the zone. It's nothing new; this was the case when I started on and DoCk> was at the top, doing very little but talking about his cat or his camera and getting people to laugh at his jokes. (Hi DoCk>! It doesn't mean I don't still like you!) It's what I like to think of as the Circle of Staff.) ....Anyhow. The reason that members of staff should have a vote is because most of them have no more say in how the zone is run than any other player. We might have staff elections to Council in the future, but at present, it's mostly department heads, or department heads at least choosing their (read: their department's) representatives. Staff need a vote because by and large, they have no say. And because staff are players of this game, too -- first and foremost, they should be players. I have far more loyalty to this zone as a whole than to staff.
• I realize this may be a popularity contest. That's fine: those who are elected still have to serve on the Council. They'll need to use Robert's Rules like everyone else, which don't exactly tolerate windbags or people who want to make a mockery of a meeting. If members of the community want them on Council, they'll be on Council. Pretty much every other election in history is also a popularity contest. It's either a republic model as we have here (so-called "representative democracy"), an autocratic model (do what I say because I'm big!), or a democratic model (everyone can vote on everything -- requires a lot of supporting infrastructure to escape becoming total chaos). A republic is a good compromise between the two extremes of fascism and pure democracy; it's about the best we have at present, and we have an infrastructure to support it. (It's tried and true... just like autocracy. Democracy is the only one that hasn't actually been tried on a large scale, which in my opinion is, again, because of difficulties relating to infrastructure, mostly. And because many people seem to think that everyone but themselves is an idiot who doesn't deserve to speak. I guess I don't.)
• Please keep the candidate thread free of discussion. I'll move this thread over to the Council subforum if you guys think that will make things easier.

[kthx]

So.. in a thread where you are trying to get player input to fix the zone, you delete a post by me that you didn't like seeing. Hypocritical as fuck. But im sure with nazi tactics like that sysops won't be blackballing tons of these changes that get voted in.

That being said.

In Game Name: Kthx
Years Playing: Alot
Objective: Completely control over the zone to fix it from the people who broke it or go fuck yourselves.

#copy/pasted this time.

[kthx]

Qan> pretty sure that staff won't abuse their powers to blackball bad ideas.
Qan> kthx's post in the signup thread doesn't look good, better delete it.

[qan]

Qan> kthx's post in the signup thread doesn't look good, better delete it.

See the forum PM I sent you. It was moved to this thread (along with other discussion posts) because I didn't think you were serious. Same with the second one you posted. I updated the candidate thread with this addition:

• You don't have to answer the questions exactly as given, but answers that are essentially a middle finger to the community will also be moved to the discussion thread.

If a few other people have a problem with this I'll move it back. But the point of the candidate thread is for people who don't know you very well to make an informed decision about whether or not they should vote for you. You're not giving anyone who doesn't know you anything to go on. Give us something at least.

[Ephemeral]

…To clarify what that means: if you have a non-policy role, i.e., are not "admin staff," the highest level you can reach is development sysop, meaning you mostly just have a say in matters of development, not policy. If you want to be an admin sysop, you generally seem to need to get there by taking on extra admin work, then getting promoted to upper staff, then getting put in charge of something that requires a lot of involvement such as Head Bang Op or Dean of Staff, and then waiting ever so long until a sysop role opens up for you, at which point you can happily retire and get in the way of everyone else doing their job below you, just like the people before you got in the way of your work. Then you get bored because there's no place further up to go -- you've "made it"; you're the King! -- and so you retire, leaving the job open for the next person to get in the way of everyone else trying to help the zone. It's nothing new; this was the case when I started on and DoCk> was at the top, doing very little but talking about his cat or his camera and getting people to laugh at his jokes. (Hi DoCk>! It doesn't mean I don't still like you!) It's what I like to think of as the Circle of Staff…

I just can’t say enough how important is it for anyone who is interested in improving the zone to understand what Qan laid out above. This is the reason why staff structure needed so badly to be improved/changed. Previously staff was implicitly tied to the ‘permissions’ of the zone. You started as a ZH and slowly gained ‘powers’ as you climbed the ladder.

Seems logical but it was really hurting the zone. What kind of personalities do you want to attract to staff; those that seek empowerment or those that cared about helping the zone? Additionally, having the ability to host an event or silence someone really isn’t the ‘power’ in the zone, the true power resides with the handful of people at top who make the decisions. At times this was not even reserved for specific titles (i.e. Dean or Sysop) but rather more of ‘who has influence’. Burn out, diffusion of responsibility, and the inability to support someone who wanted to help the zone without climbing that ladder were additional bad side effects of the old structure. Many, many good people have been chewed up and spit out in this system.

Again, congrats to those who have been willing to put the best interest of the zone ahead of their own and make this council happen. IMO a few more steps still should be done but things are moving in the right direction.
eph

[qan]

In excising a veto the person will be expending political capital. In other words, it will quickly become apparent that this person is blocking the council’s wishes. So while it may be true that veto's could become a problem I am thinking (hoping?) that it is not very likely.

Also, wanted to say -- this is right in line with what the sysops are also thinking. Don't think that they don't want this to work. They do. And they know that every veto will send a clearer and clearer message that the Council is not working, and that the old dysfunctional way will continue. It's basically a safeguard. I don't know how much you guys trust staff promises (heh), but M_M in particular has said he has no intention of ever using it except in cases where the outcome of a Council motion would have a severe negative impact on the zone, in his eyes (and the eyes of another sysop) -- the extreme, outlying cases. I don't think you'll be seeing many "political" vetos, such as the ones US Presidents often make when the opposing party pushes through a bill.

In exchange we have much more freedom to get things done in the Council itself. I think it's a good balance.