TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[the_paul]

One of the very few reassuring things players can take from the staff aspect of this council is that M_M God is involved. When I was upperstaff, M_M was basically the only one that was worth anything up there. He was probably the only person you could disagree with, and rather than ban, silence, or power trip on you, M_M would take the time to track you down and listen to what you had to say. If M_M backs out and someone like Demonic adds another title to her collection of being the head honcho with this council thing, imo the entire thing should be scrapped.

[Ephemeral]

Well, we have not talked much about transparency; this is an important aspect of making this work. It might be good to outline exactly what is going to get publically published in terms of votes and vetos. I support making this completely transparent, I think that every council vote should be publically published and any veto is publically published. Opinions?
eph

[Demonic]

One of the very few reassuring things players can take from the staff aspect of this council is that M_M God is involved. When I was upperstaff, M_M was basically the only one that was worth anything up there. He was probably the only person you could disagree with, and rather than ban, silence, or power trip on you, M_M would take the time to track you down and listen to what you had to say. If M_M backs out and someone like Demonic adds another title to her collection of being the head honcho with this council thing, imo the entire thing should be scrapped.

Hey lol, not nice :P

To be honest, I cant say I have a huge amount of interest to run this and said so since day 1. These days im happy messing around with a few bans, fixing a few arena issues that crop up and to stay away from the standard bullshit you hear from so called vets who know best
And for the record - the setting up of a council + the restructure of staff to give players more input was something I started working on 4 months ago while MM was away for a long time. So obviously adding more title's was my ultimate goal along with total control/dictatorship.

To be honest what I find interesting is a fair few of people saying I want to be on council, don't even play the damn game/zone anymore. Comments like kthx added for his reason to join, attention seeking or what. But over the years I guess you watch reasonable good people turn into bitter fools who think they are something special by impressing a few 12yr old's on forum. If this is going to work you need to forget people like kthx, and focus on people who actively play the game, who haven't turned bitter BUT are still comfortable to speak out their beliefs. I think people like eph/spock are the exact type of people who should be working on this, who wont try to bully everyone else and consistently have the best interest of the zone as their agenda, not their own personal image.

That said pick whoever you like, but don't start complaining when it turns into nothing but a waste of time and becomes non existent due to the wrong type of person holding a position on it.

[Demonic]

Well, we have not talked much about transparency; this is an important aspect of making this work. It might be good to outline exactly what is going to get publically published in terms of votes and vetos. I support making this completely transparent, I think that every council vote should be publically published and any veto is publically published. Opinions?
eph

Absolutely I would say. I think any Veto's need to be published with a full description as to why and whom. Votes I guess is more complex, depending if Qan is looking at a ballot style or aye/nay style I guess. One we can publish who voted what, the other would just be numbers, but it does need to be as transparent as possible.

[Exalt]

Here's some clarification points:

• No voting is going on right now. If you up/downvote someone in the candidate thread, it doesn't mean anything other than the usual forum upvote/downvote. Voting will take place using TWD logins. Before voting begins, members of the community who may not have TWD accounts will be encouraged to register.
• You can't nominate anyone; they need to post themselves if they want to run.
• Current staff members will have a vote. Here's why it should be this way (in my opinion). 98% of staff have no say in the running of this zone. None. Hell, some members of upper staff have only a tiny little say in how things get done. I'm lucky to be a coder and have a bit more leeway in terms of pushing changes on the dev level ... but I've never had much of an actual policy say in the 10+ on/off years I've been staff, in part because I've always been a coder. (To clarify what that means: if you have a non-policy role, i.e., are not "admin staff," the highest level you can reach is development sysop, meaning you mostly just have a say in matters of development, not policy. If you want to be an admin sysop, you generally seem to need to get there by taking on extra admin work, then getting promoted to upper staff, then getting put in charge of something that requires a lot of involvement such as Head Bang Op or Dean of Staff, and then waiting ever so long until a sysop role opens up for you, at which point you can happily retire and get in the way of everyone else doing their job below you, just like the people before you got in the way of your work. Then you get bored because there's no place further up to go -- you've "made it"; you're the King! -- and so you retire, leaving the job open for the next person to get in the way of everyone else trying to help the zone. It's nothing new; this was the case when I started on and DoCk> was at the top, doing very little but talking about his cat or his camera and getting people to laugh at his jokes. (Hi DoCk>! It doesn't mean I don't still like you!) It's what I like to think of as the Circle of Staff.) ....Anyhow. The reason that members of staff should have a vote is because most of them have no more say in how the zone is run than any other player. We might have staff elections to Council in the future, but at present, it's mostly department heads, or department heads at least choosing their (read: their department's) representatives. Staff need a vote because by and large, they have no say. And because staff are players of this game, too -- first and foremost, they should be players. I have far more loyalty to this zone as a whole than to staff.
• I realize this may be a popularity contest. That's fine: those who are elected still have to serve on the Council. They'll need to use Robert's Rules like everyone else, which don't exactly tolerate windbags or people who want to make a mockery of a meeting. If members of the community want them on Council, they'll be on Council. Pretty much every other election in history is also a popularity contest. It's either a republic model as we have here (so-called "representative democracy"), an autocratic model (do what I say because I'm big!), or a democratic model (everyone can vote on everything -- requires a lot of supporting infrastructure to escape becoming total chaos). A republic is a good compromise between the two extremes of fascism and pure democracy; it's about the best we have at present, and we have an infrastructure to support it. (It's tried and true... just like autocracy. Democracy is the only one that hasn't actually been tried on a large scale, which in my opinion is, again, because of difficulties relating to infrastructure, mostly. And because many people seem to think that everyone but themselves is an idiot who doesn't deserve to speak. I guess I don't.)
• Please keep the candidate thread free of discussion. I'll move this thread over to the Council subforum if you guys think that will make things easier.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts and clarifying things qan, even if I don't fully agree with everything. At least you took the time, and I appreciate it

[Exalt]

That said pick whoever you like, but don't start complaining when it turns into nothing but a waste of time and becomes non existent due to the wrong type of person holding a position on it.

Demonic, while I believe you probably were (unofficially) adding me to your list of "bitter" players that shouldn't be added to the council (i cant say for sure since you didnt actually list my name, either for or against), what I can say is this last sentence is what I've been saying this entire time. The ONLY people I want to see on the council are people that will put personal feelings and biases aside, who will put their ego's in check, and who really, truly, unequivocally GIVE A SHIT about the betterment of the zone and of this entire council idea. We do NOT need anyone making a mockery of probably the best, most progressive staff idea I've seen in years. I agree that players like Spock! and Eph would be in this council, and I will vote for them. I added myself to the list with mostly no hope of actually making it due to me not being a popular player, but I DO actually care an I DO actually give a shit. Even if I cannot get in, I still want to make sure only the people that SHOULD be in this thing make it. Everyone down voted Spock! immediately due to saying "he's a newb" as if that is anything but counterproductive to this entire thing. Spock! has proven he gives a shit, he is a pure-pubber and therefore has a unique perspective on things, and I for one support him wholeheartedly as someone that I can already tell with do his best to make this thing work. I simply hope everyone else actually stops making jokes and a mockery of this thing, and they actually do the right thing and give this legitimacy and let it work.

IF done right, this can be the best idea staff have had in a decade. I just simply hope it isn't one of those great ideas on PAPER like Socialism/Communism... which on paper seems like a utopia (everyone is equal!!!!) but in reality is a fucked up mess of shit that just made things worse by far.

[Turban]

m ready to be part of Trench Wars Council pls vote for me for a better future.

[Demonic]

Demonic, while I believe you probably were (unofficially) adding me to your list of "bitter" players that shouldn't be added to the council (i cant say for sure since you didnt actually list my name, either for or against), what I can say is this last sentence is what I've been saying this entire time. The ONLY people I want to see on the council are people that will put personal feelings and biases aside, who will put their ego's in check, and who really, truly, unequivocally GIVE A SHIT about the betterment of the zone and of this entire council idea. We do NOT need anyone making a mockery of probably the best, most progressive staff idea I've seen in years. I agree that players like Spock! and Eph would be in this council, and I will vote for them. I added myself to the list with mostly no hope of actually making it due to me not being a popular player, but I DO actually care an I DO actually give a shit. Even if I cannot get in, I still want to make sure only the people that SHOULD be in this thing make it. Everyone down voted Spock! immediately due to saying "he's a newb" as if that is anything but counterproductive to this entire thing. Spock! has proven he gives a shit, he is a pure-pubber and therefore has a unique perspective on things, and I for one support him wholeheartedly as someone that I can already tell with do his best to make this thing work. I simply hope everyone else actually stops making jokes and a mockery of this thing, and they actually do the right thing and give this legitimacy and let it work.

IF done right, this can be the best idea staff have had in a decade. I just simply hope it isn't one of those great ideas on PAPER like Socialism/Communism... which on paper seems like a utopia (everyone is equal!!!!) but in reality is a fucked up mess of shit that just made things worse by far.

Um no I wasn't adding you to the list, very few players go on that list for me unless nothing but a troll, who does nothing in anyway to help the zone except cry about staff being useless etc..

Also agree with this "newb" comment, spock probably plays more pubs then all those "vets" put together, and most importantly currently plays pub. Who better to provide reasonable suggestions about how it should move forward. That said, I am not voting so its down to you as a population on who you choose, so im sure as everyone as said this will be a popularity contest over an actual productive idea.

[Exalt]

Also agree with this "newb" comment, spock probably plays more pubs then all those "vets" put together, and most importantly currently plays pub. Who better to provide reasonable suggestions about how it should move forward. That said, I am not voting so its down to you as a population on who you choose, so im sure as everyone as said this will be a popularity contest over an actual productive idea.

Okay then, my mistake, I apologize. As for the rest, you are spot on. This is what I'm really worried about more than anything. This is going to be a popularity contest, and what will happen is the people that deserve to be in this Council, who will be productive and important pieces to a possible great idea, won't be voted in due to various factors (be it they are too "newbie", they are disliked, they aren't as popular, they aren't as well known to the public, lots of people will just vote for their friends instead of the better choice, people will try to vote for laughs instead of production, etc). I'm basically predicting a complete failure kind of like you've already said, although I'm hoping people take this seriously enough to do the right thing. I just have very low faith in the overall populous of trenchwars to recognize the big picture of it all. I can wish and hope, but I will prepare for the worst.

Also, Kthx...me and you have gone back a long ways man... and I very rarely have ever disagreed with you about almost anything involving staff or this zone in general, but you are WRONG on all accounts to make a mockery of this thing. If you aren't gonna take it seriously like it deserves, you need to shut the fuck up man. No offense, but this time you are seriously wrong. You never see me care this much or get this pissed off over stupidity almost ever, especially not when I usually join in on the trolling in forums/tw. You know me wark, and you know how I work, but this is something worth taking seriously for once. Stop fucking up and recognize that. This thing needs legitimacy, and support from players like you could help make that happen. Seriously, stop being a jackass saying you want to be some fucking hitler wanna-be dictator to join the council. I originally said I'd support you wholeheartedly, when I assumed you'd take this seriously. When you actually ARE serious about something in trenchwars, you can be one of the most persuasive and best leaders there are, but when you mock this thing and act like a complete fucking tool over it, I get really annoyed, because you have potential to finally do something good for this zone and instead you shit all over it trying to act like you are more important than the game and community itself. Shut the fuck up about your hatred for staff, something you haven't been a part of in over fucking 12 years now. Get over yourself dude. You don't even play this game anymore, and I've been friends with you for a very long time. You've never seen me directly rebuke you like this before, but in this instance, you deserve it. Look in the mirror and come back with a better attitude bro. Don't fuck this up for everyone else just because you want to hold a stupid fucking grudge for over a fucking decade. This is literally progressive as fuck for staff. They NEVER EVER let themselves be judged or corrected by PLAYERS of this game... and FINALLY they are doing the right thing here, and instead of supporting it, you are fucking shitting all over it in some stupid misplaced power trip. C'mon dude. You know better than this. If you can't drop this stupid ass grudge with staff members that aren't even staff anymore and you keep bunching all these staff members into the same organic group as if staffers from 15 years ago = staffers from today.... well Kthx... you need to re-evaluate your priorities here.

[STAMOS]

In-game name(s): STAMOS
Years playing TW, SS: OVER EIGHT MONTHS
Primary arenas played: I DON'T KNOW WHAT ARENAS ARE

Short TW/SS Bio: GOOD DAY. I AM STAMOS AND I AM RUNNING FOR TW COUNCIL, BUT MORE ON THAT IN A MOMENT. I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO GIVE GLORY TO THE MOTHERLAND, AND TO MY COMRADE NIKOLAI FOR INTRODUCING ME TO THIS WONDERFUL GAME. IT HAS TAUGHT ME MUCH ABOUT APPRECIATING CULTURAL DIVERSITY. EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO THE DUTCH. FUCK THE DUTCH. SERIOUSLY, HOW CAN YOU SCUMBAGS TURN SANTA CLAUS INTO A RACIST PRO-SLAVERY CARICATURE? LOOK UP "SINTERKLAAS" IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME. HE OWNS A LITTLE BLACK SLAVE BOY, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. ANYWAY, IT IS NICE TO BE ON THIS FORUM AND MEET ALL OF YOU, MINUS ANY DUTCH THAT ARE HERE.

Why choose you for Council?: I KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR TRENCH WARS, UNLIKE THOSE CURRENTLY IN POWER. I DON'T CARE IF "THEPAP" IS ESSENTIALLY THE ONLY BOT DEVELOPER THE ZONE HAS. HE ROUTINELY OVERSTEPS HIS BOUNDARIES TO ISSUE WARNINGS FOR PETTY OFFENSES, WHILE IGNORING HELP CALLS THAT ACTUALLY REQUIRE A MODICUM OF EFFORT. HE IS LIKE A REDNECK COP THAT CAMPS OUT AT A 4 WAY STOP TO ISSUE CITATIONS FOR PEOPLE DOING ROLLING STOPS, BUT IF A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALL COMES IN HE WILL BE ASLEEP IN HIS CAR WITH DONUT GLAZE ALL OVER HIS LIPS. GOD DAMN I HATE THE DUTCH. BUT I DIGRESS. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH BEING DONE TO RETAIN PLAYERS. IN FACT, STAFF RECENTLY HIRED A GUY WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF EXTREME GAMES AND MADE HIM A MOD IN THE SPAN OF LIKE TWO MONTHS. IF I DIDN'T LOVE FIS I WOULDN'T HAVE STUCK AROUND FOR EIGHT MINUTES, LET ALONE EIGHT MONTHS.

Zone issues important to you: MY FIRST ACT AS COUNCILMAN WOULD BE TO PROPOSE A ZONE WIDE BLOCK OF ALL IP RANGES ORIGINATING IN THE NETHERLANDS. ANY "CULTURE" THAT CAN TURN A HARMLESS FOLKLORE CHARACTER INTO A SLAVE DRIVER, USE THE NAMES OF TERMINAL ILLNESSES AS INTENSIFIERS IN EVERYDAY LANGUAGE, AND THROW BANANAS AT BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS WHILE CHANTING ETHNIC SLURS HAS NO PLACE IN THIS WORLD, MUCH LESS IN THIS GAME. I WOULD PROBABLY ALSO BLOCK BELGIUM AS WELL, SINCE THEY LOOK UP TO THE NETHERLANDS LIKE IDIOTS. LUXEMBOURG SEEMS PRETTY COOL THOUGH. I'D AT LEAST LET THEM PLAY FOR A WHILE. MAYBE.

VOTE STAMOS. ALSO PEE PEE SOCK AND LELAND. THANK YOU, COMRADES.

[Ephemeral]

Stamos,
Wrong thread.

Qan,
Can you further define the scope of the zone decisions that the council votes upon? In other words traditionally many people have had the ability to make changes, and many of these were done ‘on-the-fly’ and without over sight.

1. Will this continue? Can, for example, Demonic make a small change to one of the ships in ?go hockey without any council vote or oversight*? Or can someone switch the pub map to one of the holiday maps without a council vote or oversight?
2. Is there any other mechanism that staff can use to make changes in the zone that bypasses the council?
3. Obviously the existing zone rules are in place and the zone already has trained people for doing things like silencing and bans. Does council get any insight into these type actions (for example being told who did what)?

eph

*‘Oversight’ may be something like the person simply informing the council before making the change and the council agreeing that it doesn’t need a vote or the council ‘pre-approving’ certain actions.)

[qan]

Re: oversight, Eph, Council and staff are separate, basically. At the moment. There are no rules for oversight; there really are just the bare minimum rules. Council is like a newborn baby -- treat it well and carefully and it may grow into something worthwhile. If you want to push for full oversight and are on Council, you can certainly do that. However, I think you'll see a lot of resistance on the staff side for that, and not without cause. Staff is dysfunctional, but we still do get things done; we still have a staff structure, we still have people running departments and so forth. It may not be the best, but it also has its merits. If you want to know the fastest way to see Council attacked from all sides and burned to the ground, a good way to start would be to demand oversight of all changes in TW made by staff.

That said, obviously Council will be able to make changes after the fact, or its own changes. I would consider it the equivalent of one collective sysop, in a sense, as it's currently defined. A sysop with a lot on its mind.

Is a 100% volunteer, unpaid staff for an ancient game going to wait for the next meeting every time it wants to get something done? Probably not. For the big stuff, I would think it'd be prudent to bring it to Council and get some ideas, but by no means will it be required. We barely get anything done as it is. This zone would very likely grind to a halt in the red tape, especially if we can't schedule meetings in such a way to always get quorum.

Instead Council will probably do a fair bit of fighting with staff, revert changes made by staff after the fact, make its own semi-controversial changes that grinds the gears of the department they fall under; in other words, step on some toes. Bring your steel-toed boots. I don't see how it can work any other way inside the current system without basically destroying everything that's already come before. The highly principled among us might consider this a travesty ... but it's simple political reality, and while I have idealistic tendencies, in the end I'm a realist. I want to make this work.



(Also: I moved STAMOS' post over here via the "please no 'middle finger to the community' applications" request. Please repost without the trashtalk and with some real content if you actually want to run.)

[Exalt]

Instead Council will probably do a fair bit of fighting with staff, revert changes made by staff after the fact, make its own semi-controversial changes that grinds the gears of the department they fall under; in other words, step on some toes. Bring your steel-toed boots. I don't see how it can work any other way inside the current system without basically destroying everything that's already come before. The highly principled among us might consider this a travesty ... but it's simple political reality, and while I have idealistic tendencies, in the end I'm a realist. I want to make this work.

I've never seen a job I'm more perfect for! Fighting with staff? Stepping on toes? Destroy the entire system to rebuild it into something much better? Sounds like every thread I've ever made. You'll need people with the right personalities to do this though. If people get voted in that basically care more about being liked or popular than being right and getting shit done, well.. this will be a huge failure. Obviously, the people that like things to remain the same are all wrong at this point, because this game has steadily been losing population for years. Gotta have something new and drastic, and the large majority of people will not like change. This council thing will not make anyone popular by any means. That's kind of why it is so ironic that this is a popularity contest to get voted in.

[kthx]

You've been gone awhile exalt, please spare me the diatribe until we see some real results.

[Summa]

TW Council
Legislation within TW

We've had a formation meeting to decide the initial state of the Council. The Council can modify its own rules using standard procedure, as necessary. Its purpose is to promote deliberate, well-reasoned change within the zone, as a collaboration between staff and players.
(Yes, this is going to be a very dry read.)

TW Council will consist of 9 players (elected) and 9 members of staff (selected by department heads). Current staff:

Sysop: M_M God

I actually logged into th forums cuz I thought this was an idea worth reading and discussing!

Sysop: Demonic

You lost me.

Bonghits for council 2014.