TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[Ephemeral]

Qan,
IMO the primary benefit was to finally get control over the multiple changes, the diffusion of responsibility, and start holding people accountable when they make changes. But from the sound of it people will still be able to make changes THEY see fit to make and without anyone knowing if they so choose. In fact, this could set the table for the council up to be the ‘fall guy’ for failures. Think about it, if you happen to be a person who currently has control over many of the zone changes, you can still work unfettered and pretty much do what you want. In this situation the council is, at best, going to be reactionary. You would also be in a position to undermine some changes made by the council, basically staying under the radar with a series of minor changes. Why would anyone want to have ‘partial responsibility’ or a system that supports this? That is like being told you are responsible for the cash drawer at a store but that some of managers will also be using it.

I do not advocate a system that causes huge decision overhead, I advocate a system where responsibility is delegated in equal parts with the autonomy. Any system where someone is responsible and they do not also have equal parts of autonomy will eventually fail. I don’t know that this can be a ‘transitional’ thing, it seems to me that either current staff is willing to delegate the responsibility/autonomy package or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then this isn’t going to turn out well.

Of course no one is saying turn over the running of the zone to a new council. IMO the correct approach is to delegate parts/sections of it at first. A single council (as opposed to a council and a staff) where people are assigned specific responsibilities and control. Development is a good example. Obviously we don’t want some clueless guy being assigned to something as important as this; and in fact it should be have either a leadership hierarchy or a small subset of the council who are responsible and have control. We don’t need the entire council micromanaging development; but we don’t want someone who retains a staff position and can change shit at their will and under the radar. (Casting no stones here, simply an example.) Thoughts?
eph

[Demonic]

Qan,
IMO the primary benefit was to finally get control over the multiple changes, the diffusion of responsibility, and start holding people accountable when they make changes. But from the sound of it people will still be able to make changes THEY see fit to make and without anyone knowing if they so choose. In fact, this could set the table for the council up to be the ‘fall guy’ for failures. Think about it, if you happen to be a person who currently has control over many of the zone changes, you can still work unfettered and pretty much do what you want. In this situation the council is, at best, going to be reactionary. You would also be in a position to undermine some changes made by the council, basically staying under the radar with a series of minor changes. Why would anyone want to have ‘partial responsibility’ or a system that supports this? That is like being told you are responsible for the cash drawer at a store but that some of managers will also be using it.

I do not advocate a system that causes huge decision overhead, I advocate a system where responsibility is delegated in equal parts with the autonomy. Any system where someone is responsible and they do not also have equal parts of autonomy will eventually fail. I don’t know that this can be a ‘transitional’ thing, it seems to me that either current staff is willing to delegate the responsibility/autonomy package or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then this isn’t going to turn out well.

Of course no one is saying turn over the running of the zone to a new council. IMO the correct approach is to delegate parts/sections of it at first. A single council (as opposed to a council and a staff) where people are assigned specific responsibilities and control. Development is a good example. Obviously we don’t want some clueless guy being assigned to something as important as this; and in fact it should be have either a leadership hierarchy or a small subset of the council who are responsible and have control. We don’t need the entire council micromanaging development; but we don’t want someone who retains a staff position and can change shit at their will and under the radar. (Casting no stones here, simply an example.) Thoughts?
eph

The idea of council is not to BE staff though eph, and that's what your describing. Assuming every minor change needs to go through council will mean nothing gets done, and you would probably have no staff left anyways as frustration of lack of being able to do anything will take over. You would need a compromise, minor changes/fixes doesn't really effect too much, and is generally done on a whim/suggestion etc.. Changes like pubmap, well again debatable, does the council want to sit for 24hrs discussing every single aspect or does it want to deal with the important matters, such as league rules/changes etc..

[Crescent Seal]

tw council is going to fail worse than the broncos defense...got clowns as candidates which just pushes ppl with substance away from running cuz nobody wants to waste their time having to work with retards (as if working with staff alone wasnt enough of a challenge)

[Exalt]

tw council is going to fail worse than the broncos defense...got clowns as candidates which just pushes ppl with substance away from running cuz nobody wants to waste their time having to work with retards (as if working with staff alone wasnt enough of a challenge)

I only saw like 5 people even applying, so I guess it depends. This thing doesn't sound like it's very popular to begin with, but I think anyone that actually gave a shit would be applying eventually, assuming they even know about this thing. There were a few worthy people that did apply though, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know them very well, but that's a lot better than people like oranje or something applying.

And Cres, define people of substance. Who??? I doubt anyone that applied and would actually win could be any worse than half the people on staff. I don't even KNOW who half the people on staff are, but that's usual. I never really understood how random no-named newbies become staff in this game out of the blue though. Anyways, the only people of substance left nowadays are either guys like Ease who don't even log into forums and don't care anyways, or people like Kthx who don't play anymore, log into forums mainly to laugh at what a joke staff are, and probably would not actually contribute much unless they were given real power to make changes.

Since nobody is really sure WHAT this council thing will become, I don't think you'll see guys with already proven track-records apply to this thing. The best bet is to find people that either never got a chance (Weak applied, good example) due to a bad past, or people that really aren't that well known (like that Spock! guy) but seem like they give a shit.

As for the rest... Cres, if you are so worried about who gets in this thing or who doesn't, and are so worried about people of "substance" than apply yourself, if you actually care that much and you think you could contribute in any meaningful way.

[Bukkake Surprise]

I'm voting for Spock!

I haven't played in four months because I'm waiting for the game to stop being ruined by idiotic mods. This council idea is noteworthy, but I'll contain my enthusiasm due to experience. I still think this game can only be saved by hosting it on a server that's not owned by corrupt idiots.

"Too many times I've seen or personally experienced staff abusing/expressing bias towards an individual/group"

Yes, this is true. Assholes like fis and Willby.

What Zizzo said about bypassing the resolution limit should be looked into.

[Demonic]

I only saw like 5 people even applying, so I guess it depends. This thing doesn't sound like it's very popular to begin with, but I think anyone that actually gave a shit would be applying eventually, assuming they even know about this thing. There were a few worthy people that did apply though, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know them very well, but that's a lot better than people like oranje or something applying.

And Cres, define people of substance. Who??? I doubt anyone that applied and would actually win could be any worse than half the people on staff. I don't even KNOW who half the people on staff are, but that's usual. I never really understood how random no-named newbies become staff in this game out of the blue though. Anyways, the only people of substance left nowadays are either guys like Ease who don't even log into forums and don't care anyways, or people like Kthx who don't play anymore, log into forums mainly to laugh at what a joke staff are, and probably would not actually contribute much unless they were given real power to make changes.

Since nobody is really sure WHAT this council thing will become, I don't think you'll see guys with already proven track-records apply to this thing. The best bet is to find people that either never got a chance (Weak applied, good example) due to a bad past, or people that really aren't that well known (like that Spock! guy) but seem like they give a shit.

As for the rest... Cres, if you are so worried about who gets in this thing or who doesn't, and are so worried about people of "substance" than apply yourself, if you actually care that much and you think you could contribute in any meaningful way.

True, I also think with regards to weak your past should be irrelevant to a degree, being banned for things doesn't mean you don't have a valued opinion, and could bring something constructive to the table. Since its players voting, and since its unlikely they will know a players past to a degree (staff wise at least) im hoping the voting will be based on what idea's they are looking to bring through over any so called passed indiscretions. Personally I will vote for anyone who actually appears engaging, driven and actually want to affect change in the zone.

[LF]

I'm assuming by "people of substance" Cres means somebody 'like' me. Up to this point I'd be the ONLY applicant that knows and participates in more or less every aspect of the zone. I was a SMod once upon a time, I've run TWL, I've been a TWD-Op/player, Ive contributed to TW-Dev in every aspect except coding, I practically invented TW Radio (I know pallies was before me), I know events probably better than any 4 people combined on staff, myself and MAGI KOZ created the Staff Training Dept (4 of my trainees are currently Upperstaff)I've donated more real world cash to this game and been screwed by 24 harder than anybody, I rewrote THE PUSHER's zone description on our website main page, I actually PLAY in pub and at a competitive level at the same time as compared to staying in spec all the time. I don't think a single applicant up to this point can say a single one of those things except maybe Zizzo (Who is a great applicant btw)

What dissuades me from even bothering with this is the fact that I've been blacklisted from contributing anymore because "I think I'm the best" (because I am) and some stupid rumors about a 2 week fling I had with a girl online 2 years ago. I don't crave power like the majority of staff, all I've ever asked for was the ability to host shit (Right Demonic?) but because poid doesn't like me the zone loses, not me. With my experience in game and in reality combined with my financial ability I could single handedly turn this game around from this downward spiral that we're in. In no way am I so jaded to think I am the saving grace that could prevent this zone from ever dying, because its not a matter of "if" but "when", but I could ensure that time comes at least several years later than the path we are on now. However, with my experience of actually being upperstaff, or just staff in general I know full well that I had zero influence or actual say in anything of any substance. All that power belongs in the hands of people who don't even play this game anymore. If I had no say as a SMod then I will certainly not subject myself to being partners with pee pee sock, beam, waza and spock! in a last ditch effort for people who don't even play the game to save some face.

On paper I think its a great idea, and the right person is running it in Qan. He is thorough, intelligent as fuck, polite and does a good job when he's actually active. The biggest downfall for me personally is the list of applicants. Theres 1-2 good ones in my eyes but we have 9 seats to fill with the likes of some of the biggest trolls in the history of the game (pps), and brand spanking new players that have absolutely no clue how things are supposed to be, due to no fault of their own but still true. So that combined with the staff side of this council who the majority are also more or less incapable of making knowledgeable decisions due to age/experience is why I'm not wasting my time by even applying for this. However, if you guys need a mod to host a shitload of events and take out the trash in pub let me know. I have almost 4 years experience

[Crescent Seal]

On paper I think its a great idea, and the right person is running it in Qan. He is thorough, intelligent as fuck, polite and does a good job when he's actually active. The biggest downfall for me personally is the list of applicants. Theres 1-2 good ones in my eyes but we have 9 seats to fill with the likes of some of the biggest trolls in the history of the game (pps), and brand spanking new players that have absolutely no clue how things are supposed to be, due to no fault of their own but still true. So that combined with the staff side of this council who the majority are also more or less incapable of making knowledgeable decisions due to age/experience is why I'm not wasting my time by even applying for this. However, if you guys need a mod to host a shitload of events and take out the trash in pub let me know. I have almost 4 years experience

this basically sums it up for me. i made a list of who i thought would be perfect for this on the 1st page of this thread (post #12). obviously it is bias but it has a nice balance to it and it would make the biggest positive impact. i thought of running myself until i saw the candidates. im sorry but i would not be able to take the position seriously at all if i had to work with people like pee pee sock and other pubbers who don't have any knowledge of any issues outside of pub. i still believe this is a step in the right direction and qan is the perfect guy to do it, but the whole thing has become a mockery now.

[Crescent Seal]

? y my post so good that even the forum gods double it

[Spock!]

thought of running myself until i saw the candidates. im sorry but i would not be able to take the position seriously at all if i had to work with people like pee pee sock and other pubbers who don't have any knowledge of any issues outside of pub..

That is why myself(and others) wanted councilmen to be put into categories (like the staff where) elected based on what they played most. As an example: A person like me would run for a position as a councilman for Pub, while another who mostly plays TWD would run for a TWD position. That way votes wouldn't be askew and it would be a council with diverse knowledge in the happenings and needs of their specific area. There could have been a slot or two for some Jack of all trades kind of players who dabble in many parts of the zone as well.

Unfortunatly, this wasn't implemented, and as a result we may end up with a council that may be rather biased in knowledge and passion for only a certain part of the zone. I know I wouldn't want a bunch of pure pubbers like myself on council, but they are needed, just as people with knowledge in other areas of the zone.

[LF]

That is why myself(and others) wanted councilmen to be put into categories (like the staff where) elected based on what they played most. As an example: A person like me would run for a position as a councilman for Pub, while another who mostly plays TWD would run for a TWD position. That way votes wouldn't be askew and it would be a council with diverse knowledge in the happenings and needs of their specific area. There could have been a slot or two for some Jack of all trades kind of players who dabble in many parts of the zone as well.

Unfortunatly, this wasn't implemented, and as a result we may end up with a council that may be rather biased in knowledge and passion for only a certain part of the zone. I know I wouldn't want a bunch of pure pubbers like myself on council, but they are needed, just as people with knowledge in other areas of the zone.

I don't doubt that you care and want to help Mr Spock, and I admire your willingness to contribute. I also can see the purpose of voting for people who specialize in 1 thing or another, in your case public arenas. What would concern me about voting for people like you or Exalt or Wazzaa or pee pee sock is how incredibly 1 sided your view is. As a member of the council you would not only be asked to address matters that concern pub, but the zone as a whole. Due to no fault of your own, but how could you possibly offer anything constructive to a conversation about TWL/TWD, or dueling, or events, or development, or marketing etc. Your opinion just like everybody elses is important and should be heard, but I believe the seats should go to people who actually have a clue in what they are talking about in more than 1 aspect of the zone. Please don't think this is a personal attack on you, I think you would make a fantastic candidate for <ZH> to increase your knowledge of how things work in TW. This opinion also applies to most of the staff that don't belong in a council seat but have a chair at the table merely because there was nobody else to pick from. I hope that makes sense

[Demonic]

I'm assuming by "people of substance" Cres means somebody 'like' me. Up to this point I'd be the ONLY applicant that knows and participates in more or less every aspect of the zone. I was a SMod once upon a time, I've run TWL, I've been a TWD-Op/player, Ive contributed to TW-Dev in every aspect except coding, I practically invented TW Radio (I know pallies was before me), I know events probably better than any 4 people combined on staff, myself and MAGI KOZ created the Staff Training Dept (4 of my trainees are currently Upperstaff)I've donated more real world cash to this game and been screwed by 24 harder than anybody, I rewrote THE PUSHER's zone description on our website main page, I actually PLAY in pub and at a competitive level at the same time as compared to staying in spec all the time. I don't think a single applicant up to this point can say a single one of those things except maybe Zizzo (Who is a great applicant btw)

What dissuades me from even bothering with this is the fact that I've been blacklisted from contributing anymore because "I think I'm the best" (because I am) and some stupid rumors about a 2 week fling I had with a girl online 2 years ago. I don't crave power like the majority of staff, all I've ever asked for was the ability to host shit (Right Demonic?) but because poid doesn't like me the zone loses, not me. With my experience in game and in reality combined with my financial ability I could single handedly turn this game around from this downward spiral that we're in. In no way am I so jaded to think I am the saving grace that could prevent this zone from ever dying, because its not a matter of "if" but "when", but I could ensure that time comes at least several years later than the path we are on now. However, with my experience of actually being upperstaff, or just staff in general I know full well that I had zero influence or actual say in anything of any substance. All that power belongs in the hands of people who don't even play this game anymore. If I had no say as a SMod then I will certainly not subject myself to being partners with pee pee sock, beam, waza and spock! in a last ditch effort for people who don't even play the game to save some face.

On paper I think its a great idea, and the right person is running it in Qan. He is thorough, intelligent as fuck, polite and does a good job when he's actually active. The biggest downfall for me personally is the list of applicants. Theres 1-2 good ones in my eyes but we have 9 seats to fill with the likes of some of the biggest trolls in the history of the game (pps), and brand spanking new players that have absolutely no clue how things are supposed to be, due to no fault of their own but still true. So that combined with the staff side of this council who the majority are also more or less incapable of making knowledgeable decisions due to age/experience is why I'm not wasting my time by even applying for this. However, if you guys need a mod to host a shitload of events and take out the trash in pub let me know. I have almost 4 years experience

Correct you have only asked for powers to host I would quite happily have you, but as I said at the time, the decision is not mine to make

[Exalt]

I don't doubt that you care and want to help Mr Spock, and I admire your willingness to contribute. I also can see the purpose of voting for people who specialize in 1 thing or another, in your case public arenas. What would concern me about voting for people like you or Exalt or Wazzaa or pee pee sock is how incredibly 1 sided your view is. As a member of the council you would not only be asked to address matters that concern pub, but the zone as a whole. Due to no fault of your own, but how could you possibly offer anything constructive to a conversation about TWL/TWD, or dueling, or events, or development, or marketing etc. Your opinion just like everybody elses is important and should be heard, but I believe the seats should go to people who actually have a clue in what they are talking about in more than 1 aspect of the zone. Please don't think this is a personal attack on you, I think you would make a fantastic candidate for <ZH> to increase your knowledge of how things work in TW. This opinion also applies to most of the staff that don't belong in a council seat but have a chair at the table merely because there was nobody else to pick from. I hope that makes sense

Honestly Lizard Fuel, I wasn't going to speak up on opinions like yours until I saw you down other players besides me, since I applied with no actual aspirations of winning, mainly due to players LIKE you, who think they know everything inside this community, yet are honestly NOT a part of the "veteran" community as someone like Demonic is/would be. You have never been a legit TWL player, for instance. Hosting radio and being on staff before does not mean you have the inside scoop on what players are thinking. You are not on any of my chats for instance, and you do not have the ear of most of the 10+ year veterans in this game. You don't think like them, and you do not have the same perspectives that they do. The same most likely goes with pure-pubbers as well. You do not have the same perspective as someone like Spock! has. You alone put yourself in the click of someone like zizzo (who I agree is a good candidate), which is to say you are part of a small group of TWers that is not representative of the whole.

If you have not noticed, this is not a one man show. It is a council, which means it is kind of like a Congress. In Congress, you always have people with their own agendas and viewpoints. That is needed to make everyone's perspectives heard. What Spock! mentioned with the category thing was actually based on a post I made. The entire zone should be represented, not just one group, and Lizard Fuel.. you are nowhere near representative of the entire zone. You are way too egotistical in a Kthx sort of way, yet without the player pull/past skill level/knowledge of the community that Kthx had.

As for guys like Pee Pee Sock, I think everyone agrees with that, since he couldn't even take the application seriously enough to write something legible. All you have to do is simply not vote him in. I will also say that anyone who thinks they have a better perspective on things should probably apply, because you are only hurting this thing by keeping your name out. If players want you voted in, you will be. If nobody thinks you'll do a good job and nobody actually likes you, then you won't be voted in and you can try for staff again as your backdoor. The only people making a mockery of the thing are people that refuse to even try, yet down the idea based on "no quality candidates" which is to say, you are being useless fucks.

[Spock!]

I don't doubt that you care and want to help Mr Spock, and I admire your willingness to contribute. I also can see the purpose of voting for people who specialize in 1 thing or another, in your case public arenas. What would concern me about voting for people like you or Exalt or Wazzaa or pee pee sock is how incredibly 1 sided your view is. As a member of the council you would not only be asked to address matters that concern pub, but the zone as a whole. Due to no fault of your own, but how could you possibly offer anything constructive to a conversation about TWL/TWD, or dueling, or events, or development, or marketing etc. Your opinion just like everybody elses is important and should be heard, but I believe the seats should go to people who actually have a clue in what they are talking about in more than 1 aspect of the zone. Please don't think this is a personal attack on you, I think you would make a fantastic candidate for <ZH> to increase your knowledge of how things work in TW. This opinion also applies to most of the staff that don't belong in a council seat but have a chair at the table merely because there was nobody else to pick from. I hope that makes sense

Ah, no offense taken LF. That being said, I have been a part of Dueling squads before, and I know a lot of the concerns and issues that arise through that experience. I’m also very familiar with events, as I almost always attend them when advertised and I’m rather familiar with what events are popular and those that are not-so much (no experience hosting)

The reason I thought “Specialists” for certain areas is that I fear that many players may have themselves spread too thin, with their attention given only partly towards certain aspects of the game, with these players having only partial knowledge on certain subjects.

Going with the “specialist” idea, players would (hopefully) have guidance from other players that are apart of the other parts of the game. That way, the players from their perspective zone specialties would be able to make their case on certain issues and explain the problem in full.

Also, I fear that there are few active dedicated people who are proficient in TWL/TWD, dueling, events, development and marketing left that actually want to run for council It seems to me to possess all of those skills one would have to be former staff.

And believe me, I have applied to staff multiple times, trying to help out the zone. Unfortunately I’m not a brown-nose like a lot of people seem to be (not mentioning any names) and I wasn’t afraid to offend the staffers when they made an idiotic decision for the zone.

[LF]

I'm not sure where all that came from but I'm not going to spend the energy fighting it because in the end I'm not participating in this regardless so it doesn't really matter what I've done/haven't done as compared to what others think I've done/haven't done. I'm entitled to think that after 14 years and contributing in just about every way possible both as staff and as a pub/twd/twl player that I know what I'm talking about. I'm not as confrontational and/or political as wark is but I have every bit the experience he does plus some, both within the community and on a competitive level. In the end it is only my opinion, and as meaningless as it has ever been. If you don't like it then take it with a grain of salt and drive on, because I'm going to give it regardless