TW Council - UPDATED w/ structure

[Exalt]

i'm pretty sure i clearly stated that my main issue is the lack of time i have to put into this council business, but i do feel that what little time i do have would be better spent elsewhere because i still have no confidence in this setup, and that's actually primarily due to a point that ephemeral, for whatever reason, outlined as a positive. in this scenario, i don't like the fact that the sysops unfailingly echo each other's sentiments, sometimes seemingly without much (or any) thought. i would prefer to see some occasional healthy disagreement among the higher-ups instead of a weak stream of "me toos" every time one speaks up. and even if the sysops learn to start disagreeing, considering that one future staff-side council member is currently under heavy fire for acting more like a mall cop than a league op, i know i'm not alone in knowing that he especially will mindlessly follow the votes of those higher than him in the zone food chain so as to protect his fragile position of internet authority, thereby costing the council its integrity right out of the gate.

besides, kthx has pretty much said all that's needed to be said about this entire ordeal. this council wouldn't even be necessary if those in charge hadn't spent the last several years actively shooting down decent ideas in favor of strokes of genius like using donation money to sign zenabee up for cam sites and send her a subspace poster to hang up behind her for advertisement purposes.

again, best of luck, but no thanks to those calling for me to apply, and don't bother nominating me after the fact.

Alright PH, I can respect that.. I just think you'd do a lot of good on the council thing, even if it's just for shits and giggles to see if it works or not. If it doesn't work, so what? No skin off anyone's backs. If it does work though, it could be a good tool at least. I just know you and Kthx both can do a lot of good on there, due to both being respected players and charismatic personalities. You guys are persuasive and good at debating legitimate arguments, and shutting down people with flawed logic.

Basically... You are both the opposite of what pee pee sock brings to the table.

[Izor]

Uh, last I remembered for a conversation to be productive something would have to come out of it. So far you have 0. The last move I considered to be productive was hiring krynetix to pub since he seemed to have a mindset of balancing gameplay, but unfortunately when I've tried to play recently I just get banned so I lost interest pretty quickly. I would love to see how that's panned out though. This is just the same circular conversations that have been going on for the last few years about vague actions that need to be taken and the same people are not taking them.

I said a few months ago that staff at the very top was the downfall and stand by it. There is no clear direction from the top down to push this game in any direction but status quo. We made a decent push to get donation money, none of which the community has seen put to use besides pizza tournies and server maintenance. A council run by mostly staff and yes men will do little to change the core problem here. The fact that you're seeing players who are eager (and imo able) to make that difference back down and/or not sign up in the first place reflects the fact that they also see how useless the concept will be. A competent staff should be able to make the correct changes without asking the players in the first place. It's just a cop out for why the game isnt going in the right direction to say "well the council made up of X players along with staff came to this decision."

[the_paul]

Umm, pretty sure while you were gone some of us did tons of shit. Also yeah basically PL got fucked over by SSC around the same time as the TWBR and FieryFire debacle. Go back and read four years worth of forum threads and posts and see what happened during that time before you want to point fingers at those of us who won't join the signup for the council. We all have our reasons.

I remember all of this. I still have those logs from the private arenas saved somewhere.

There's plenty more that can be said about the biggest problems coming from the way that staff is structured, but I'm pretty everyone already knows that that ship sailed a long time ago. I'll give you a hint though: to everyone blaming the "questionable new hires" you're looking in entirely the wrong direction. The biggest problems on staff happen to have been staff for quite a long period of time. With the exception of 4o. He was knew and he was a grade A fuckhead, you're right about him. What ideas can this council even preach? To vote to spend the 4 (?) year old donation money? To vote on who should be in what position in staff? What changes can the council really vote on that are going to make any difference? One of the biggest changes that could do some good for the zone would be a staff overhaul, mainly at the top of the staff food chain. But guess who would have to implement those changes? I just don't see what anyone thinks that this council can realistically change. As far as I can see, this council is just another way that the players will be able to disappointed by staff yet again.

Also:

also im proud to have used cuntstop and shitdick in consecutive posts. thats real leadership.

this is probably the best post in this entire thread.

[Exalt]

Paul... I don't know... I was in pub the other day with Demonic, Kthx, a bunch of staff members, and some other legitimate knowledgeable players, and what we did was brainstorm, trade ideas, and discuss things that are currently being worked on/implemented, ideas that people WANT to be worked on/implemented, problems/obstacles that have to be overcome, and possible solutions to those problems. It was VERY productive in a lot of ways. I know everyone wants to knock it, but the people that do knock it are the ones that weren't there to see it. It was a great chat. Everyone involved stated that it was the best chat they've seen in trenchwars in easily 10 years. It wasn't even close. Demonic and other staff members were being completely transparent with everything they had planned or wanted to do, including the various problems they face.

One discussion was about switching to a new billing server, switching to ASSS, etc. One was about jabjabjab's 70% finished, working beta continuum client that runs on java. It would replace continuum as we know it and allow many new and improved features. Another was about growing the current player base. Another was about how to keep the new players that come (There are about 15 new players on average a day that log into trenchwars that are legit NEW, not old aliased players). A discussion was had on why some stay and why some leave, and how to prevent them from leaving. Some players simply could not figure out the control scheme, so a discussion was had about the code in continuum and how to maybe either create an in-game training bot (one already exists), or remaking the old off-line training arena that the subspace client had before the switch to continuum. Continuum is an exact rip of subspace, but with protections to cover the fact that the code was completely stolen. The code for that old off-line arena is still there somewhere.

Anyways, it went on for like 4 hours. I can't even name everything that was discussed, but it was a great conversation, and I learned a lot of new things I didn't know before. I even gained a new perspective on the issues Demonic (for instance) has to face on the daily, which gives me a new found respect for Demo in a lot of ways. The entire thing was productive and worthwhile.

So stop bashing something you haven't seen and was not there for. The council COULD be exactly what happened in that chat, along with voting powers and the ability to make those changes HAPPEN. If the council alone is simply something like a discussion between Representatives ala a Congress for subspace players, it would be worth the time, worth the trouble, and a great thing.

Like I said, stop bashing something if you weren't there to see exactly how effective and amazing this can become. If you don't want to try it, then don't fucking try it. Go play continuum and mind your own business. Let the people that do care about the zone and do want to get things done worry about that. You go do nothing and bitch about things to yourself instead of saying nothing will ever work and why try and blah blah blah.

[the_paul]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too. I'm not saying that I know every single thing that goes on these days, but I do know a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I didn't just hear about it, I did it. I have/had a very good handle on how staff works and who does what, and a first hand view of what the problems were, and undoubtedly still are. I was on staff when Wark and LF were there, we were in pure_luck's corner the entire time the SSC thing was going on, I was there for all of it. That's not some sad ass play for e-kudos or anything, I'm just saying I know what goes on because I've been there and I've done that. I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops. And I quit over the way staff, already inefficient at best, tanked when 4o was promoted all the way up to smod. I quit when M_M God became less and less involved. I quit when Poid took over and saw the way long time, still producing staffers (see Lizard Fuel) were run off. More than most, I know the problems that happen at the top and affect the entire zone. I know what CAN be accomplished, but more importantly, I have a very good reason to believe that I'm right when I say I can produce a very good guess as to the large gap that will occur between what can occur and what will occur.

Trust me exalt, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass on this one.

[Exalt]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too. I'm not saying that I know every single thing that goes on these days, but I do know a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I didn't just hear about it, I did it. I have/had a very good handle on how staff works and who does what, and a first hand view of what the problems were, and undoubtedly still are. I was on staff when Wark and LF were there, we were in pure_luck's corner the entire time the SSC thing was going on, I was there for all of it. That's not some sad ass play for e-kudos or anything, I'm just saying I know what goes on because I've been there and I've done that. I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops. And I quit over the way staff, already inefficient at best, tanked when 4o was promoted all the way up to smod. I quit when M_M God became less and less involved. I quit when Poid took over and saw the way long time, still producing staffers (see Lizard Fuel) were run off. More than most, I know the problems that happen at the top and affect the entire zone. I know what CAN be accomplished, but more importantly, I have a very good reason to believe that I'm right when I say I can produce a very good guess as to the large gap that will occur between what can occur and what will occur.

Trust me exalt, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass on this one.

I never said you didn't know anything Paul. Never said that at all man. You know I know you well enough. I know you aren't ignorant.

All I'm saying is that I saw what the potential of the council could be in that chat the other day, and I was highly impressed by it. Everyone who was there for that chat left impressed by it. The only people left bashing the council at this point are the people who were NOT there for the chat. I honestly wish I had logged it. I would have had I known it would turn out into being what it did.

As a matter of fact, IF you've noticed, even Kthx has changed his tune a lil bit about this council and is now even saying in other threads that he will join the council and give it his full attention if certain things are done. Before, he was saying there was no way he would ever join it at all. None. He changed his tune simply based on what that chat gave.

It IS worth our time. It IS worth my time. If it isn't worth YOUR time, then stop bashing it and go do something else. That's all I'm trying to say.

Here, look:

If its feasible I say first threaten the SSC and if that doesn't work then go to each zones ownership personally and offer the invitation to join our new zone with somewhat equal majority. Any zones that join offer their respected players and staffers (respected) chances to get on the council were creating, and have the council control not just changes within the zone but actually run the entire zone. Obviously we will still need "bang" ops and other people who have powers that not everyone on the council can have or understand, but generally speaking get rid of the role of sysops, and deans and every other "power" role in staff. Staff applications, promotions within staff from ZH to ER everything is decided by the council. Get rid of mods, have a few Smods on who are knowledgeable with the bot systems and who have direct numbers of people to call when the billing server dies or when the zone needs to be recycled etc. If this ends up happening I see you talking about a new way to run the zone in terms of what we can do with the physical aspect of the zone, but it is also a chance to change the soul of the zone itself. I think that staff needs to be completely erased basically and that there need to be only ZH's, ER's, Dev, Smods, Bangops and The Council itself. I can't speak for everyone but a change like that would honestly get me interested in being a part of the council itself, and would probably get me into playing again as I could see a future for this zone.

Todays shitfest was just another prime example of how our staff procedures have run their course in every way, shape, and fashion. This could fix the zones image and make the game a less corrupted place with a council that would be incorruptible with the right mix of players.

And Paul... I know you were one of the few really good staffers we've seen in this zone. I'm not trying to discredit anything you've done in the past or even will do in the future. Not at all. I appreciate and respect what you've tried to do, and I agree with the reasons why you quit staff in the first place. We are in complete agreement with all of that. The only thing I disagree with you about is the POTENTIAL of what this council could do and become. I believe in it's potential. I really do.

[Demonic]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too. I'm not saying that I know every single thing that goes on these days, but I do know a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I didn't just hear about it, I did it. I have/had a very good handle on how staff works and who does what, and a first hand view of what the problems were, and undoubtedly still are. I was on staff when Wark and LF were there, we were in pure_luck's corner the entire time the SSC thing was going on, I was there for all of it. That's not some sad ass play for e-kudos or anything, I'm just saying I know what goes on because I've been there and I've done that. I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops. And I quit over the way staff, already inefficient at best, tanked when 4o was promoted all the way up to smod. I quit when M_M God became less and less involved. I quit when Poid took over and saw the way long time, still producing staffers (see Lizard Fuel) were run off. More than most, I know the problems that happen at the top and affect the entire zone. I know what CAN be accomplished, but more importantly, I have a very good reason to believe that I'm right when I say I can produce a very good guess as to the large gap that will occur between what can occur and what will occur.

Trust me exalt, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass on this one.

hah I remember that, everyone was like don't give it to TP and turned out my best bang op lol

[Ricko]

bring Paul back to staff - 1

[Ephemeral]

Really? I don't know anything? I suppose that you're forgetting that I was upperstaff for a while, and I was the banC operator directly under demonic for a while too…
I went from ZH to Smod and did all the steps in between. I was the 2nd ZH hired when they brought the position back. I worked in the training department. I was a TWL Op and ran the league for weeks at a time when real life caught up with Flared. I handled appeals. I trained people in banC, I trained people in banG, I performed, edited, and lifted bans that no one else other than Demonic had access to. I worked with the billing ops…

IMO Paul’s post above is VERY significant, it is a great explanation of what is so badly broken in the staff structure. This ‘old school’ approach to staff hiring and promotion is the root cause to many of the problems that have existed for years with staff. Whomever put this system in place had zero experience in managing people and organizations. It is moronic to think that the best way to build a leadership structure is to force everyone to ‘come up thought her ranks’, it is typical bottom up thinking. Of course this approach seems logical on the surface, ‘gee everyone that comes up through the ranks gets to learn everything there is to know about the zone’. While this logic has a bit of truth it has many, many more problems.

First, it sends the message that being staff is all about having ‘powers’. It attracts the wrong type of person to staff (instead of attracting those who primary purpose is to help zone). And when you do have a person who only really wants to help the zone, it forces them into doing things that they don’t want or care about doing. For example if a person joins staff with the primary purpose to help new players who enter zone, why the fuck would you force them to host events?
Even worse, the truth is that the ability to send a zoner or some other dumbass command has NOTHING to do with the true empowerment in the zone. The true empowerment is concentrated at the top few staff positions, those who are making the decisions for the zone. All the other staff positions are simply busy work positions; operational tasks. It is like saying that the person serving you burgers at McDonalds has ‘power’ because they have the ability to stop you from upsizing your order. Yet we spend huge amounts of time writing walls of posts flaming the guy behind the counter as being ‘power hungry’ or some fuckup.

Second, it greatly limits the choices for Deans. The current staff system would be like saying ‘no one can become a leader of Ford Motor company until they have worked every job in the company. They start at the loading dock and have to work their way to the top.’ WTF kind of moron would think this is a good idea? The only thing this has accomplished is to burn out good people and prevent other good people from even trying to join staff. Plus, you end up with the same kind of service from lower staff that you get from that guy at the McDonalds counter; someone who really is not invested in the job they are doing. Just going through the motions, no real passion in what they do. They end up just fucking around on the job, pulling pranks and doing stupid things (like exploiting bugs). Sound familiar to anyone? Doh.

THIS is why we pushed for something like the council. THIS is why we need sweeping changes in the way staff is structured. THIS is why we need to attract the right people and give them responsibilities they want AND enjoy doing. Trust me, having right ‘employees’ in place makes all the difference in the world in the product (TW zone). Change the staff structure, change the way staff is hired/prompted/fired and the zone will greatly improve. This has ZERO to do with ‘good ideas’ for features, we can fucking come up with endless ideas for improving the zone until the sun explodes; but as long as staff structure is so badly broken the product will never grow and be successful.

Demonic, whether you like her or not, needs to be respected for understanding the above and trying to begin the change process. She could not simply axe the entire staff and ‘start over’; the zone still has to operate while whatever transition is attempted. Plus she has her hands full with some existing staffers who are pushing back on a lot of this, they are threaten and want things to stay the way they are. Others may just be apathetic yet are playing critical roles in getting things done. She cannot simply flip a switch. Well she could but it would take a lot more effort, skill, and risk to pull it off. It is doubtful that many people in the zone have this kind of experience (I have it but frankly I’m not interested in investing that much time). Others have the issue figured out because they lived the pain for years. Guys like Paul, kthx, PH, LF and many other who are saying ‘fuck this’ understand exactly what is wrong with staff structure but have little interest in investing either; they have already donated huge chunks of their time and little to show for it. And then there are a few guys, like Qan and Shaddow, who are currently on staff and understand the above is badly needed.

How will this turn out? One of two ways. Either people will get on board with the council and support it to drive the changes to the staff structure that are so desperately needed. Or we will allow the council idea to wither on the vine and go back to the traditional old school staff structure that has given us such a cluster fuck for all these years. But whatever turns out no one can say that Demonic, M_M and Beasty HAVE given us the opportunity for change ad improvement. Big props to them.
eph

[Exalt]

I highly agree with everything you've said Ephemeral.I really don't know what else I could add to that. You made such a great case that stands on it's own. I definitely agree.

[Spock!]

So.....

Any news on when the elections will actually start?

[Exalt]

So.....

Any news on when the elections will actually start?

Bumped. Is this Idea just going to die now, or what? Did Qan get bored and move on to some new project (rest of staff along with him), or what's up? Give some updates, or declare this idea dead. Don't let it stagnate forever and just be forgotten about. That's the usual course of action in staff, and that kind of crap needs to stop immediately. If you're actually doing things behind the scenes, you need to be transparent enough to explain what you are doing to the rest of the public. Nobody likes secrets, and nobody will stick around for you to waste our time anymore with silence either. We can all just up and quit and you can be staff of a dead zone just like all the faggots in hyperspace or dsb. Give updates or stop wasting our time.

[Zeebu]

Bumped. Is this Idea just going to die now, or what? Did Qan get bored and move on to some new project (rest of staff along with him), or what's up? Give some updates, or declare this idea dead. Don't let it stagnate forever and just be forgotten about. That's the usual course of action in staff, and that kind of crap needs to stop immediately. If you're actually doing things behind the scenes, you need to be transparent enough to explain what you are doing to the rest of the public. Nobody likes secrets, and nobody will stick around for you to waste our time anymore with silence either. We can all just up and quit and you can be staff of a dead zone just like all the faggots in hyperspace or dsb. Give updates or stop wasting our time.

id rather them come out with a good 'mission statement' for lack of a better word than to just hold elections and then have everyone start yelling at each other. i also think it would be a good idea to wait until after twl to hold the elections. theres always a population spike during twl. if you want to be a part of this, i think you ought to be around for more than just 3 or 4 months out of the year. i agree that some of the better twl players are only active during this time, but you dont need the best players for this to happen; you need twl players with a good knowledge of the system.

my thoughts

[roxxkatt]

are you sure its not a better idea to be impatient and say a bunch of stupid immature things instead
it works so well

[qan]

So.....

Any news on when the elections will actually start?

Post-TWL, once everyone's attention is not distracted. Also hoping to gather one or two more candidates. Yes, I'll agree my attention's divided -- a lot of things going on right now. I work and have a small social life on top of my duties as a dev for TW, and have been preparing for a pretty big interview as well. Trying to balance. It's not gone or forgotten, by any stretch of the imagination; don't worry. It's better to take things slowly than to rush headlong into error anyhow.

Thanks to everyone who continues to discuss Council. Elections will be held soon. I've been reading up on Robert's Rules again, preparing myself.