Public Input for Elim

[Shadowmere]

This statement is ignoring the fact that Jones, among almost all the WBs in this forum, have brought up. There simply aren't very many wb games played compared to jav. Saying otherwise is just a lie, and claiming it is all okay and nothing is wrong is also false.

I honestly cannot understand how you can say this isn't an issue when an entire subsection of players say the exact same thing? Wb elim is not 'fine' and hasn't been for a long time. Ignoring it doesn't make the problem go away.

I already replied to your cry about that. Read up.
Earlier today I saw about 5 warbird elims being played in a row.

You're barely on for an hour a day, how can you say such things when you're not around?

[Exalt]

Edit: I'm an asshole. Whatever

[Jessup]

I like everything so far EXCEPT.... winning is so frikkin unsatisfying with the short little beep sound. Please put in a more rewarding sound byte when the winner is announced!! (inconceivable of hallelujah) or something.. plus if you are semi afk, you can't really know when the game game is over... it just sounds like a boring PM beep.

Otherwise good job.. so far seems ok, I'll reexamine my feelings in a few weeks.

[Fork]

I like everything so far EXCEPT.... winning is so frikkin unsatisfying with the short little beep sound. Please put in a more rewarding sound byte when the winner is announced!! (inconceivable of hallelujah) or something.. plus if you are semi afk, you can't really know when the game game is over... it just sounds like a boring PM beep.


Otherwise good job.. so far seems ok, I'll reexamine my feelings in a few weeks.

Yeh i agree with this/ also have sound effects for when someone is out?

[Exalt]

Earlier today I saw about 5 warbird elims being played in a row.

Look at the current elim ladder. So far, absolutely nobody is on the WB ladder. There simply haven't been enough games. 6 people are on the Jav ladder. What's that tell you? It tells me that there simply aren't enough WB games. A simple solution is to split the arenas, which is what WBs ALL want. Javs are the only players against it.

Try it for a week. If it doesn't work, change it back. How difficult is that? The arenas were already made long before any of you became staff.

[qan]

I'll take a look at the sounds pretty soon. I don't personally play with SS sound ... feels like a form of ear-rape. So I tend to forget about sounds sometimes. I used to do custom sounds for Distension, though. Could maybe make (or find) some decent customs for elim. Including a few short but unique sounds for different stages (end of elim, new elim starting, etc).


I'm not so sure that splitting elims is a great idea (personally). There are some hidden issues here; for example, people idling, waiting for a new elim, regardless of type. And those who play both ships. Split it up and that idling crowd becomes quite a bit smaller.


What the problem seems to be is that when one style of elim is running, others can't run. So it's only a problem when Jav games are running back to back during particularly busy times, and WBs want to play. Rather than splitting elims, we could always run elim2. This would indeed mean that you might have two jav games going at once, or even 2 WB games. But I think that's fairly unlikely (and not the end of the world if it happens, anyhow). And it would prevent the problem of splitting the arena unnecessarily.


As far as trying X for a week, and how difficult is X, it's all more complicated than it seems, as usual. I'm not even sure if running two elim bots these days would work without some unexpected interference issues, or excessive load. We've already had issues with bots using far too much in the way of resources, so everything that is added, including and especially having another bot running all the time, has to be considered carefully. (Most likely be fine, and it can certainly be tried, though.) There's also issue of political capital -- sure, someone can just DO it, but isn't that what we've all complained about over the years: people just taking matters into their own hands and expecting everything to go smoothly? (We're working on getting TWD-locked public voting up soon, so that can perhaps make this part a little easier.) And then the work itself: TW runs on pretty much a skeleton crew. This is the first time we've had a proper dev staff since the Steam launch, AFAIK. For a period of around 3-4 months we had maybe 6 changes to TW's bots, all extremely minor. There're a lot of hidden barriers, in other words. And it doesn't help much to be condescending about it. Can appreciate that you are passionate about it (and many other issues) but that also does not change the fact that you're basically directing already overworked volunteers to do work that you yourself could help with. While those same volunteer players are inundated with similar directions from all sides, many of them directly in opposition to the other, and almost always in a condescending manner, as if we owe you something and are somehow depriving you of what is due. We're not. We owe you exactly nothing, and that's the truth of it. But we still do what we can. Often poorly, often slowly, but it's still basically as good as can be done under the circumstances.


Will still see what I can do, of course, but I'm not your paid employee, you're not my manager, and even small stuff takes time, effort, and political capital. You've gotta appreciate that.

[Spacely]

as far as not many people on wb ladder because of low games and all

could possibly lower the 300 games or whatever to get on the ladder temporally until the system is ironed out and elim is more active

i like this confidence thing its a good start to changing how people can just sit on top of the rankings and never play



thank you for your time

[field]

lool

[Exalt]

I mean... two people are on wb ladder now, both of whom have basically trolled the arena looking for 1v1 wb games to win just to get ranked. It's pathetic, but at least it shows everyone on staff how badly the merging of javelim/elim destroyed it. There's your evidence. It's pretty hard for you to claim otherwise in the face of that.

Nobody in the world is going to ask staff to start elim2 just to get a game. Elim is it's own thing for a reason. Staff fucked it up to begin with only half the community on-board, and now staff basically say too bad. As long as you acknowledge that elim is only for one section of the population, then fine. Javs were the majority of staff members when the changes occurred, and javs continue to deny there is an issue as if it wasn't obvious. That's the main problem I have. It's the same as all the German people who denied the Holocaust during WW2 when the death camps were right outside their windows. Of course it's an issue, but if it's not affecting you, why should you care?

[forwards]

It's the same as all the German people who denied the Holocaust during WW2 when the death camps were right outside their windows. Of course it's an issue, but if it's not affecting you, why should you care?

You mean the Hall of Cost, right?

[qan]

It's the same as all the German people who denied the Holocaust during WW2 when the death camps were right outside their windows. Of course it's an issue, but if it's not affecting you, why should you care?

Just took a quick look at number of elim games. Currently 797 elims have been played in Season 6. 197 are WB elim and 570 are Jav. Means that WB elims are very slightly more than 25% of the elim games played. Not amazing, but not terrible.

I offered a possible solution of running an elim2. No opinion? There are important reasons why we're not trying to splinter the already rather quiet elim arena. For better or for worse, many people take their WB dueling elsewhere these days ... wbduel, pub duels, duel, etc. There are just a lot more options than there once were. We could certainly try an elim2 if there is interest. Then one can run a wb elim in there when you're clogged with Jav elims.

Nice work comparing holocaust denial with disagreeing with you over how to run a video game, though. Got to hand it to you, that's ballsy! And in rather poor taste.

as far as not many people on wb ladder because of low games and all
could possibly lower the 300 games or whatever to get on the ladder temporally until the system is ironed out and elim is more active
i like this confidence thing its a good start to changing how people can just sit on top of the rankings and never play

Nice idea. After all, the 300 game threshold was originally meant to be a sort of imitation confidence. "Not confident that your rating is worth anything until you get to 300 games." Now confidence is built into the ladder rating, so the ladder start can easily be reduced. I talked to Upster, who is currently looking over elim, and he's on board with it going to 150, so I'm pushing that through now.

EDIT: note that this WILL mix up the current rankings a bit, as now players who were doing quite good at around 150 k/d are able to show on ladder. But it won't be too hard to topple them from the ranks by simply playing more games in elim.

Also, I checked the end round sounds. They seem set right now, the chorus and inconceivable. Maybe already changed them? Not sure, I forget this stuff sometimes. Too many things to do. I added a victory bell every time someone is knocked out. Hopefully that won't get too annoying. If anyone wants to create/gather a custom set of sounds for various states in elim (voting, end round, etc), please feel free, and we can make use of em. freesound.org has tons of public domain sounds. Could just send me links. (Msg me in game to be on the safe side) This also goes for any map files, LVZ graphics, logos, etc etc etc. Anything you want to improve, let's do it, eh? If it doesn't work out we can always go to a backup.

[Jones]

Man, I was reading up on that whole Holocaust denial up to this day. Basically, their premise is that the 11 million something figure of total deaths was too high and it should have been barely a million. The tone of the "evidence" suggested that the Red Army were the most evil. Some really chilling stuff to be perfectly honest.

Anyway, is it possible to get some raw data on how many players per game is playing? I believe the rating system should reward you more if the total players exceeds 10. Something to think about.

Nice work, though. Much appreciated.

[rothe]

....

[Exalt]

Hahaha

[forwards]

27th January...

http://hmd.org.uk/page/why-mark-27-j...t-memorial-day