NEW Pub LEVI and Small X in Testing

[Crescent Seal]

[Azov]

I think we've made great strides in pub as of late. The Levi coming back to its roots as a powerful ship was long overdue and I'm glad its back. That being said, there are some things I'd like to see changed. Most importantly, buy zones and pubbux need to be fixed. Being able to !buy in safe was a good alternative if having !buy available everywhere was not going to work. I personally think !buy should be available anywhere, especially since everything is very expensive, and the ability to earn a proportional share of pubbux isn't there. To that point, earning pub cash needs to be a lot easier. If things are going to cost thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars, then people should be able to earn cash at a rate that makes those values make sense.

As for the small weasel, I never understood the logic in making it big again. The entire point and joy of being in a weasel was because it was small. It should return to being small as soon as possible.

[qan]

Re: SMALL WEASEL, I'm going to be trying some settings myself. Unfortunately I can't find an arena with the last used small weasel settings. (Trying to keep this from happening again by creating backups of all major settings we change, especially pub.) So many combinations and tweaks are possible.

I'm going to do something a little unorthodox, but something that as the new dev sysop guy I feel more comfortable doing than I would have in the past... Here are the settings for the current large Weasel. TW settings used to be some sort of protected holy esoteric knowledge, but especially Weasel? Not so much. So here is what we have. If you guys want to come up with your own weasel, try making your own server or the like, or just try modifying these numbers and I can put them up in an arena for you so we can test them. Note that for small Weasel, energy has traditionally been a little over 1000, less than 1040, so a L2 bullet kills it in 1 hit, Radius=7 so it can get through holes, and it's not had access to stealth. But it still COULD have access to stealth, larger energy, even smaller radius, etc etc etc. Don't let preconceived ideas limit you too much. The goal is to make a ship that works in pub, not ape the past.

[Weasel]
SuperTime=1
ShieldsTime=1
Gravity=1500
GravityTopSpeed=100
BulletFireEnergy=208
MultiFireEnergy=242
BombFireEnergy=32000
BombFireEnergyUpgrade=0
LandmineFireEnergy=32000
LandmineFireEnergyUpgrade=0
BulletSpeed=1000
BombSpeed=1
BulletFireDelay=40
MultiFireDelay=40
BombFireDelay=30
LandmineFireDelay=20
MultiFireAngle=888
CloakEnergy=800
StealthEnergy=500
AntiWarpEnergy=32000
XRadarEnergy=32000
MaximumRotation=130
MaximumThrust=24
MaximumSpeed=6000
MaximumRecharge=1250
MaximumEnergy=1020
InitialRotation=130
InitialThrust=12
InitialSpeed=1200
InitialRecharge=1250
InitialEnergy=1020
UpgradeRotation=0
UpgradeThrust=0
UpgradeSpeed=0
UpgradeRecharge=0
UpgradeEnergy=0
AfterburnerEnergy=4000
BombThrust=0
BurstSpeed=1
BurstShrapnel=1
TurretThrustPenalty=0
TurretSpeedPenalty=0
TurretLimit=0
RocketTime=150
InitialBounty=3
MaxMines=0
RepelMax=1
BurstMax=0
DecoyMax=1
ThorMax=0
BrickMax=0
RocketMax=1
PortalMax=0
InitialRepel=1
InitialBurst=0
InitialBrick=0
InitialRocket=1
InitialThor=0
InitialDecoy=0
InitialPortal=0
BombBounceCount=0
CloakStatus=2
StealthStatus=2
XRadarStatus=0
AntiWarpStatus=0
DamageFactor=3000
PrizeShareLimit=0
AttachBounty=3
ShrapnelMax=0
ShrapnelRate=0
MaxGuns=3
MaxBombs=0
InitialGuns=3
InitialBombs=0
EmpBomb=0
SeeMines=0
DoubleBarrel=0
SoccerBallFriction=12
SoccerBallProximity=64
SoccerThrowTime=1200
SoccerBallSpeed=2500
SeeBombLevel=2
DisableFastShooting=0
Radius=0

[qan]

RE: TILES, we're definitely looking at updating them. If you guys have tilesets you want to see in pub, remember that the best way to get it done is to do it yourself. Dev is running a skeleton crew, moreso than ever. Let me show you how easy it is to try it yourself if you don't know how.

1. Get DCME: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dcme...atest/download
2. Open the pubmap from inside your Continuum folder. zones/SSCU Trench Wars/#fispub2.lvl right now, I believe.
3. Go to Edit->Edit Tileset.
4. For the bottom image, hit Open. Locate the file you want to grab the tileset from (another lvl file).
5. Select the tiles you want to copy over with the left mouse button, clickhold.
6. (This one is odd) Right click and hold on that selection, and move it up into the top image, which is the current tileset. Replace the tiles of your choosing.
7. Close the tileset window. It will ask you if you want to save and apply the new tileset. Hit yes.
8. All the old tiles will be replaced automatically by the new ones. Took you literally 5 minutes.

This way you can test out a bunch of different tilesets very easily and see how they look with the pubmap! Don't worry about the doors/expanding base. If you find a good tileset, that can be done pretty easily.

/msg or ?msg me or poid in-game if you come up with something good. Or attach it right here (in a zip file).

[bounty]

I like the trees and such to jazz up the map idea. To be honest I requested the ?go boki map to be the new full time pub map back before the resize map was announced. The green, leafy jungle enviroment is super cool and the hiding effects would be epic in pub. In my opioion weasel small or large should keep the L3 bullet. One hit kill is a must, if you fire cloaked and just damage an enemy, it will just piss em off and thats trouble for you recharging.

[Steep]

I also wish a new pub map, new tiles, fresh look. If you are bringing back a small weasel, how about giving it non-lethal bullet, so it needs some skill/luck to get kills? And the famous missing item of tw, brick

[olde]

Small X +1
I believe it had just cloak last time it was around, no stealth. I could be wrong.

Also fellaz id like to bring up (dundundun) the pub map its self! Its very plain and boring looking. I think just graphic add ons and colors could fix that. ( I noticed when the xmas map was around . Pub was more active throughout the whole day, and i seen ppl playing who normally dont play pub often) ima guess the cool little xmas add ons and colors caught their eye!
I was thinking something as simple as mybe adding like the little trees, the ones they have in WB elim. Or for a good example.(just the little grapic add ons. Not the map shape its self) like the basing map ?go boki and ?go boki2, I believe I spelled that right?(hah, please check those maps out) If not im sure you know what arena im talking about. Just a little something to CATCH a players eye! Make it fun fresh! (Like hey look im hiding in a bush!) You know some little weazle hiding in a bush on the roof, ready to fk an LT up!

I think this could be put in the game very easily with out causing any harm. Should give it a shot. Tw needs some freshness! Check out the basing maps i mentioned ^ very simple! ( and once again i mean just the graphic add on like bushes/trees/color not change map tiles) this is my pub input!!!!

[qan]

in reading this post it just occurred to me that my entire gripe with the weasel is 100% based on the small, small reward for successfully winning a round after someone repeatedly switches to weasel with 45 seconds left and snags the flag.

but yeah, i guess the problem arises when you look at potential avenues for abuse. but i dunno, if there was some way to look at the raw data (avg turnover rates, lengths of rounds, etc etc etc etc etc) i'm sure we could find a starting point

Could also (well, would have to) increase the turnover reward based on how many seconds are left. Strong rewards for a bunch of small turnovers during a normal FR battle, at near 3 minutes, wouldn't be much good. Though it should do something, because it shows there's a real contest going on.

Re: data, not sure how much we have. There MIGHT be some on pubgames, but I think it's pretty slim. It's been something I've wanted to see for awhile... I guess it would just be a matter of pushing it to the database and then displaying it on a site, which is not too hard. Just... time-consuming, as is everything, and few people with enough time. Plus, consumes some system resources that we're already running a bit short on, for various reasons. Probably not likely to happen soon.

That's why so much of the pub work has been down to estimates, or "trying stuff" and seeing what happens. A time-honored tradition of jumping in blind and hoping for the best. The hope is that at least it can be done from a reasonable hunch. Often ends in disaster, though.

I think there are definitely ways to prevent the abuse. Just have to try to think out all the angles. And patch up any holes as we go.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Not really sure that means it's a pointless strategy or a bad option to have in-game, though. LTs also piss everyone (in base) off. Small weasels grabbing the flag infuriate only the team holding the flag. Often if someone wants to X in to do a flag grab, it's because the enemy team is holding it securely enough that there's not much else to do. Meanwhile, the small X increases the defensive value of Javs, who can both monitor Xradar and damage X via bomb splash (they're somewhat underrepresented in FR defense). It also increases value of Terrs, which must remain a bit more alert. And perhaps my personal favorite, it gives a counter move to sharks who place blocking mines at the entrance when there are no sharks on the other team, other than simply switching to shark yourself.

Currently, the weasel has very close to no base role. It's not one that everyone loves, but it's one with a pretty low skill threshold, so a new player who has figured out how to cloak can hop in the ship and do OK. (Though I'm not sure how they would learn to cloak except by luck or checking the key bindings, as I don't think any tutorial arena explains the different ship roles.) If they could also do something in base, even if it's mostly just running distraction or delaying the inevitable, it would provide another path for unskilled players to be of use to their team.

As far as turnovers go, that seems like a pretty solid idea. At the moment I think you're right... they don't add much (if anything) to the end round bonus, and it's an easy way to gauge how hot the competition is. Overall round time is what it's mostly based on at the moment, but that's not always a great indicator. Only trick would be to prevent people from abusing it like they use the flag grab bonus, waiting until it gets next to nothing and then swooping in for some extra cash. Could maybe have a cutoff of a certain # of players.

But, increasing the amount rewarded based on number of turnovers would probably work as a consolation for those feeling cheesed by a last-minute weasel rush, as they'd still hold onto FR in most cases, and go on to win the round, so that bonus would pass onto them.

in reading this post it just occurred to me that my entire gripe with the weasel is 100% based on the small, small reward for successfully winning a round after someone repeatedly switches to weasel with 45 seconds left and snags the flag.

but yeah, i guess the problem arises when you look at potential avenues for abuse. but i dunno, if there was some way to look at the raw data (avg turnover rates, lengths of rounds, etc etc etc etc etc) i'm sure we could find a starting point

[bounty]

BIG YES from me on he subject of small :ship6:. The whole dynamic of the small :ship6: completely changes basing and LTing stratagies etc. My idea is to bring the small :ship6: back this weekend (if possible) to put it up against the new L3vi (that's my copyrighted word) !!!

---------------------------:ship4:----------VS----------(small):ship6:------------------------------



Then of course have a poll/vote eventually on the new duo. What you guys think>?

[qan]

This right here is way more of a problem, than the benefit gained from its being an anti-LT ship. It doesn't "keep competition going", it just pisses everyone off.
Of course, if you dramatically scaled the jackpot up, it might be worth it.

Not really sure that means it's a pointless strategy or a bad option to have in-game, though. LTs also piss everyone (in base) off. Small weasels grabbing the flag infuriate only the team holding the flag. Often if someone wants to X in to do a flag grab, it's because the enemy team is holding it securely enough that there's not much else to do. Meanwhile, the small X increases the defensive value of Javs, who can both monitor Xradar and damage X via bomb splash (they're somewhat underrepresented in FR defense). It also increases value of Terrs, which must remain a bit more alert. And perhaps my personal favorite, it gives a counter move to sharks who place blocking mines at the entrance when there are no sharks on the other team, other than simply switching to shark yourself.

Currently, the weasel has very close to no base role. It's not one that everyone loves, but it's one with a pretty low skill threshold, so a new player who has figured out how to cloak can hop in the ship and do OK. (Though I'm not sure how they would learn to cloak except by luck or checking the key bindings, as I don't think any tutorial arena explains the different ship roles.) If they could also do something in base, even if it's mostly just running distraction or delaying the inevitable, it would provide another path for unskilled players to be of use to their team.

As far as turnovers go, that seems like a pretty solid idea. At the moment I think you're right... they don't add much (if anything) to the end round bonus, and it's an easy way to gauge how hot the competition is. Overall round time is what it's mostly based on at the moment, but that's not always a great indicator. Only trick would be to prevent people from abusing it like they use the flag grab bonus, waiting until it gets next to nothing and then swooping in for some extra cash. Could maybe have a cutoff of a certain # of players.

But, increasing the amount rewarded based on number of turnovers would probably work as a consolation for those feeling cheesed by a last-minute weasel rush, as they'd still hold onto FR in most cases, and go on to win the round, so that bonus would pass onto them.

[Jerome Scuggs]

It's also a decent last ditch effort for saving the flag when your team is failing to take FR, and can keep competition going a bit more, though many think it's cheap. Personally I always liked it. Not sure what the community in general thinks about it.

This right here is way more of a problem, than the benefit gained from its being an anti-LT ship. It doesn't "keep competition going", it just pisses everyone off.

Of course, if you dramatically scaled the jackpot up, it might be worth it. For every flag turnover/timer reset, add 1k pub bucks to the payout. As far as I can tell, winning a hard-fought round with 5-6 flag turnovers/timer resets over the course of an hour doesn't pay much more than a round that lasts 5 minutes and goes uncontested.

That being said I pay very, very little attention to the specifics of post-round payout, so I very well could be off the mark here.

[qan]

Some more ideas on countering Levis to make them still viable:

- Return of the small X, though probably not with infinicloak/stealth. Probably slow drain. It was originally put in as one counter to LTs. It's also a decent last ditch effort for saving the flag when your team is failing to take FR, and can keep competition going a bit more, though many think it's cheap. Personally I always liked it. Not sure what the community in general thinks about it.

- Some kind of !buy roofwarp that would let fighter ships (1, 3, 7) to warp to one of many near or around the roof (but not on it). This would let fighters deploy out from the base easily to counter LTs and other roof-related threats. Of course, they still have to be in mid or lower to do this, so it'd only be useful to an attacking team or an FR defending team that's been able to push out into mid. Importance would be placed on a large number of warp points, so that people could not cheese LTs by waiting for them to go to a certain location, then warp and fire. Like people used to do with the (now insanely expensive and therefore only last-resort) roof turret. Probably most locations would be out near the rock ring to keep it fair.

[bounty]

Ok the lame roof camping situation by Levi and LT's at start of rounds has been solved by Qan, our wizard. Levi, Terrs, and LT camping roof will be warped into bottom safe at round start. This prevents 6-7 fers at one touch of tab button and clearing the FR the moment the round begins! This was fun to camp and lame like that I admit.... but ruins basing.:skull:

[qan]

You just wait anywhere on roof or on the sides of the base, when the basing rounds start ( the whole pub spawns inside the ears of base) you shoot a lev bomb and LITERALLY spawn kill the whole team that spawns in the ears of flagroom.

Yeah, noticed this one myself. Pretty bad. As you say, in the past we didn't have the round-start warp (or, well, rounds, before I put the timed game in so many years ago), so people could actually defend against LTs at any time.

Trying to think of a non-obstructive way to do it. Warping everyone to safe is really heavy-handed, and interrupts a lot of stuff that's going on in pub, all in the name of basing. (As much as I love pub basing, and as much as it's really the heart and soul of pub, I think it's naive to center all play around it. We all started out spawnkilling, and that remains a good intro to the game for so many people. LTing offers some really fun and interesting play opportunities, too, so long as it doesn't disrupt the game too much.)

So far my main idea is to warp LTs and Levis to bottom safe if they are in the overall roof region 10 seconds before a round starts (and maybe 5 seconds after, to prevent porting in).

Another idea that would assist basers who still want to battle LTs, though might be slightly controversial or strange for TWers, is offering a one-way portal from inside the base to outside it, activated by sitting in a certain spot inside mid. Kind of like a "scramble the fighters!" option of a starbase.

I re-enabled the LT hunting freq (99), which offers bonus $ to LT hunters, and shares all bounties among hunters. In exchange, this freq gets no bonus for winning the flag game, or the usual extra points for making kills inside base. (It does not give away LT positions, as it once did.) I also reduced the price of antiwarp a bit, to make it a bit more affordable to go on the hunt as a spider. MIGHT lower the cost of the roof turret, but that thing's so damn disruptive, and just seems like a lazy way to deal with things... Same goes for re-enabling the "pure pub" or "sorta pure pub" buy.

Any thoughts or ideas? Really want to make L3 work in pub if we can possibly accommodate it. It's massively destructive but also has potential to be extremely fun. People have kinda gotten used to pub being only about basing, when in the end, as annoying as they are, levis have always been part, and enjoying the satisfaction of running them down and killing them (as well as massive multikills as part of an LT) is a time-honored tradition.