Let's discuss changes that could be made to the base for after TWL

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Bosshawk
lets be real here

the funny thing is most guys complaining about the cram is the squads that

a: dont have spider depth to play 5 spiders
or
b: dont have the sharks who can cram worth crap
or
c: simply cant cram worth crap

with the lag in TW these days...lining is easily broken

i dont care how well your line...brookus's and terrs like him drop a high portal and lag through the line for kicks...

and the lag isnt getting better its getting worse...

i sit during twlb games and all you hear by "vets" is that "any cram can be broken by a good jav" yadda yadda yadda

if thats the case why are we having this discussion at all?

we are having it because teams are having trouble beating a good cram.....and that is the problem.....

i saw a go base team the other day with 3 wb's and a jav own a 4 or 5 spider lineup.... any lineup can win if the team commits to their philosophy and has the teamwork and skill to back it up.....

restricting ships is only being offered because those squads dont have the spider depth or the desire to adapt to the way the game has changed.....and im sorry but lining in this lag is easily breakable....

you say a jav can break a cram easily?

break ours!
break spastic's!

you might do it once in a while....with a lucky shot by your jav, but when our sharks are on you will be very lucky to break it "if and only if our guys are doing their job"

this game is about mistakes as well, and the squad that makes the least is the squad that will win....

:eek: :eek:

While I agree with some of your feelings, I think that the main goal of every basing player is to make the game: 1) more fun 2) more based on skill

I think there should be more ideas on how to actually improve basing without restricting the rights/flexibility of the team. We want diversity too in ships and in strats.

Ppl have already suggested some ideas:

Change ...
1) basing map
2) ship settings
3) player-in-game-size (9v9?)
4) win requirements (first to 120k pts)
5) flag pts and kill pts

Remember ... basing should emphasize 1) teamwork 2) diversity in ships (basing is not all wbs or all javs like TWLD and TWLJ)

[Mattey]

Bosshawk and sufficient you don't get what they are saying at all. It isn't about cram vs. line, it's basically cram vs. FR battles. Which one do you think is more fun?

[Mattey]

Originally posted by Bosshawk

you say a jav can break a cram easily?

break ours!
break spastic's!

ALL CRAMS ARE THE SAME. It's all about sharks, and anybody with any knowledge of sharking at all can shark in a cram or in a line.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Mattey
Bosshawk and sufficient you don't get what they are saying at all. It isn't about cram vs. line, it's basically cram vs. FR battles. Which one do you think is more fun?

Cram also has fr battles. I don't get what you're saying ... you seem to thinkt hat cramming ELIMINATES all other aspects of basing including midbase and fr fights. Cramming does not eliminate these aspects. There are plently of fr battles in a game with a cramming team. Not as many perhaps. And again ... I 'personally' think that midbase battles are the most fun as opposed to base entrance, tunnel entrance, or fr battles. It's all a matter of opinion.

Once again ... cramming does not eliminate fr battles ...

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Mattey
ALL CRAMS ARE THE SAME. It's all about sharks, and anybody with any knowledge of sharking at all can shark in a cram or in a line.

Give me two sharks and I can almost guaruntee that they cannot hold a cram w/o several games of practice.

Your statement leads me to conclude that successful lining can also drastically cut down on fr battles in the same way as cramming cuts down on fr battles. Thus, ANY successful strat (excluding fr strat) will cut down on fr battles ...

And instead of arguing about this topic I'd rather see ppl give ways of making basing better according to the goals I said in my previous post. (If you are going to argue, at least give some productive suggestions)

[Verthanthi]

Explain what else sharks have to do in lining. They basically fulfill the same roles as cramming sharks: protect spids and terr by repping.

On top of protecting spids, sharks need to control the position of people in ent. It's they're job to make sure enemy come in on the defense's terms, not on their own. Major variations include line mining (Least respected, but it can be effective), Repping up (see windy), repping to contain (From above flag, or under the wings of flag bar) and some others which I don't do so can't talk about.

To me sharks are in an even more tense situation in the cram bc they must react quickly (more quickly than in a line) to nme fire. As you said, 1 jav bomb can wipe out a cram. How does that not put pressure on the spiders and the sharks?

I haven't tested my theory yet, but I beleive sharks with a good sense of rhythem can get the window where their spids are unprotected by reps/shark bodies for their spids down to around zero. That's just with attach, rep, rep, rep, absorb. I haven't tested it, but I know you can get close. The problem comes from sharks who over think. Comparitively, on a line it's one shark per side, so there is almost always a window for a jav.

<stuff about cramming needing aim, condenced for easy reading>

I didn't say it didn't, rather that there were other aspects you need to do on a line, notably dodging jav bombs. Sharks take care of all jav bombs in a cram. They also take care of most bullets. That's not even close to true on a line. Thats one of many reasons a cram is simply a better defense.

Sry if I misread, but I thought you said you thought lining was more fun.

More fun than cramming, less fun than flagroom battles, but as many people have pointed out, 30 minute fr battles simply AREN'T fun. Lines give a nice breather or something, I dunno. If crams were shorter, maybe they wouldn't be as obnoxious and unfun. But they tend to either be 3 seconds (Not a breather) or 8 minutes (Just demoralizing and unfun).

You make it sound as if cramming eliminates fr battles, which is not true. Also, cramming does not eliminate midbase battles.

No, there are still fr battles. But look at games like the most recent spastic-mambo game. Then look at any game last season involving the top 8 twlb teams (exlcuding WR vs NS, that one didn't even have a line battle I don't think) You'll see MANY more fr battles. And more importantly, the FR:Outside FR ratio is down from 15 min :15 min.

How can you say this and say cramming is NOT all or nothing?

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying it's all or nothing for the attacking team. You're in or you're out. Crambreaking is a long process (in general). It's basically an outside-fr milk. And for a milk, it's pretty easily sustainable.

I think that cram is fun. Some ppl don't. But some ppl DO. So are you saying you would rather see ppl play lines just bc you play lines, or that lines are more fun, or that lines need skill? I assume you don't ... so what do you suggest to solve this "game play problem."

Whoa, me come up with a solution? You do know who you're talking to, right? Well, my first one would be "BRING BACK SPEEDBALL, YOU GODDAMN BITCHES", but that isn't happening. Ideally, I'd find ways to weaken the cram, put it on the level of the line rather than above it. I've been toying with some ideas. Actually, I think stab's thread came from a conversation he, I, and some other speccers were having during the mambo-spas game (Don't hold me to that, stab would know better than I). I've got a couple, but I'm going to post this to keep the two seperate. Also because I'm petrefied opera will crash.

[brookus]

Originally posted by Bosshawk
brookus's and terrs like him drop a high portal and lag through the line for kicks...

What does "lag through the line for kicks" mean?

llater,
Tony

[Bosshawk]

Originally posted by Mattey
Bosshawk and sufficient you don't get what they are saying at all. It isn't about cram vs. line, it's basically cram vs. FR battles. Which one do you think is more fun?

i agree flagroom fights are more interesting for spectators and pretty intense for the combatants too....

but

TW like any other game tends to be about winning.....for obvious reasons....

changing the rules because teams have taken the game to a new level and to punish those teams who have taken the game to a different strategy seems silly...

i guess i wasnt really trying to argue....but re-iterating that everyone in spec during matches rambles on about how easy it is to break a cram..... yet this whole topic is about how to stop squads from cramming lol.....

doesnt that seem ironic?

[Verthanthi]

Shadey-pie's ideas

#1 Widen the entrance
Advantages: Minimal change, makes firing on cramming spiders a little easier
Disadvantages: Easier to fire on attacking spiders, easier for sharks to get out, probably won't actually solve shit.
Shade's Effectiveness Rating: 2


#2: NEW MAP: Double ent
Advantages: Easier to get into flag. With portals and smart sharks for the offense, no defense can hold both ents for long, although the line is still vaugley potent.
Disadvantages: Needs a new map. Would lessen the tension of flagroom battles (wider base, same number of people).
Other notes: Due to the larger FR, wbs and javs would be more powerful because things are more spread out. Good because we like variety. Bad because t might overpower them. Just noteworthy
Shade's Effectiveness Rating: 3


#3 Get Talon to play TWLB
Advantages: His nasty roof jav will fuck your cram up.
Disadvantages: Not happening.
Shade's Effectiveness Rating: 10!


#4 NEW MAP: Circle-style
This map's flagroom would be at the smallest of a set of cocentric circles. There would be an entrance on either side of one of the diameters.
Advantages: MUCH easier to get into flag. With portals and smart sharks for the offense, no defense can hold both ents for long. Also, circles are fucking awesome.
Disadvantages: Needs a new map. Would change the whole dynamic of fr battles. The entrance breatehrs wouldn't be breathers at all. Also, I hate circles.
Shade's Effectiveness Rating: 2


#5 Multi flag
Put a flag in lower
Advantages: The cram would see a decrease in it's effectiveness due to it's high death count (in comparison to a strong line). With both sides scoring equally the reletive safety of a line has a benefit that the sheer strength of a cram does not. Might help to balance it out. If it doesn't, the offensive team isn't as far out when they finally DO break through.
Disadvantages: Makes winning a fr battle mostly meaningless. FR battles will be all about the milk, as there isn't enough time to hold lower (getting 400 points instead of only 200) to get a signifigant lead. The defensive team would be at a disadvantage once FR battle started
Shade's Effectiveness Rating:2


#6 Doors on the flag bar wing's
WTF does that mean: the flag rests on an I-bar qith two little wings on the sides. If those were doors, terriers trying to sit under flag would run the risk of getting ported. heheh, I'm a bitch.
Advantages: Would make cramming risky, which evens it out with the line.
Disadvantages: First off, it's fucking weird. Allright? Also, the attacking terr runs a similar risk. Might change fr in weird ways. Would definatly need play testing
Shade's Effectiveness Rating:6.5



Alright, there are some ideas. I only think two of them are at all viable, and since talon won't play....

[Fit of Rage]

Interesting ideas. I agree, certain ones aren't at all viable (i.e. Talon ) However, I do think that some should be tried before next season. I really want to get away from the same old style of cram cram cram. FR battles 4 life.

[Sufficient]

The best option I see so far is changing the basing map. The map is essential part of basing and can be given MINOR or MAJOR changes. This allows for a lot of flexibility, unlike more permanent changes.

Oh btw ... I think you should focus more on integrating wbs and javs into play instead of focusing on getting rid of (countering) the cram ...

Remember ... there are essentially 3 areas of basing action:

1) tunnels (left, right, main) / lower areas
2) midbase (the 4 big blocks, ears)
3) fr (holes, ears, flag placement, spider blocks)

4) spawn area / roof (currently not used for basing action)

If there is to be any changes to the basing map, these 3 areas (I think) should remain part of it.

Also some questions need to be answered:

1) Do basers care if the pub map is different from the basing map (I don't mean slight tweaks like we have right now)?
2) Can we utlilize maps that are already made? (wasn't there a huge thing a few yrs ago about changing the pub maps and there were several test maps)
3) Are there ppl willing to create maps for the express purpose of testing out basing map ideas?
4) Are TWL Ops willing to change the basing map?

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Originally posted by brookus
What does "lag through the line for kicks" mean?

Obviously a mis-truth. We all know brook does it for the bitches and money.

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Bosshawk
lets be real here

the funny thing is most guys complaining about the cram is the squads that

a: dont have spider depth to play 5 spiders
or
b: dont have the sharks who can cram worth crap
or
c: simply cant cram worth crap

with the lag in TW these days...lining is easily broken

i dont care how well your line...brookus's and terrs like him drop a high portal and lag through the line for kicks...

and the lag isnt getting better its getting worse...

i sit during twlb games and all you hear by "vets" is that "any cram can be broken by a good jav" yadda yadda yadda

if thats the case why are we having this discussion at all?

we are having it because teams are having trouble beating a good cram.....and that is the problem.....

i saw a go base team the other day with 3 wb's and a jav own a 4 or 5 spider lineup.... any lineup can win if the team commits to their philosophy and has the teamwork and skill to back it up.....

restricting ships is only being offered because those squads dont have the spider depth or the desire to adapt to the way the game has changed.....and im sorry but lining in this lag is easily breakable....

you say a jav can break a cram easily?

break ours!
break spastic's!

you might do it once in a while....with a lucky shot by your jav, but when our sharks are on you will be very lucky to break it "if and only if our guys are doing their job"

this game is about mistakes as well, and the squad that makes the least is the squad that will win....




:eek: :eek:

exactly, cramming just keeps 1 team out of the flagroom indefinately, making the game boring.

oh, and

the funny thing is most guys complaining about taking away the cram is the squads that

a: don't have anything to play but spiders
or
b: dont have the sharks who can line/fr fight worth crap
or
c: simply cant do anythiing but cram worth crap

edit: dude, shut up

Originally posted by Sufficient
Remember ... basing should emphasize 1) teamwork 2) diversity in ships (basing is not all wbs or all javs like TWLD and TWLJ)

so a 4 spider limit is suggested (automatically making a minimum 4 ship variety) and you are against 1 wb or 1 jav being introduced? hipocrite

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Randedl
exactly, cramming just keeps 1 team out of the flagroom indefinately, making the game boring.

So does successful lining ... what's your point?

so a 4 spider limit is suggested (automatically making a minimum 4 ship variety) and you are against 1 wb or 1 jav being introduced? hipocrite

When did I say this? You NEED to give the teams a freedom of choosing what they WANT to play ...

Watch out who you call a hypocrite.

[Mattey]

Originally posted by Bosshawk
i agree flagroom fights are more interesting for spectators and pretty intense for the combatants too....

but

TW like any other game tends to be about winning.....for obvious reasons....

changing the rules because teams have taken the game to a new level and to punish those teams who have taken the game to a different strategy seems silly...

i guess i wasnt really trying to argue....but re-iterating that everyone in spec during matches rambles on about how easy it is to break a cram..... yet this whole topic is about how to stop squads from cramming lol.....

doesnt that seem ironic?

I know that you aren't trying to take credit for the cram. And I'll ignore the misuse of irony.