Current state of TWD Cup & Pivoting to another league

[zidane]

speaking of 2v2 league, I don't think the maps were ever updated for the season 1 winners for when Rack and myself took a giant dookie on the competition. hopefully it's updated before starting another season of it

[RaCka]

speaking of 2v2 league, I don't think the maps were ever updated for the season 1 winners for when Rack and myself took a giant dookie on the competition. hopefully it's updated before starting another season of it

LOL it'll be updated

[Zeebu]

Btw Elo rating system imo won't work well in Trench Wars. It will favor players on stacked teams and require way too many games to get any decent reflective ladder on players abilities. There is too much potential for a players ELO rating being carried on a high star player's back who they play with constantly. You all realize ELO rating was for chess players and it based off INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE. A Win / Loss stat is a reasonable addition for a rating formula in a ladder placement but to ignore every other skill like time alive and kills/deaths and assists ect will not be reflective in 5 vs 5 team based games in TWDD, TWJD and TWBD.

Elim and 1 vs 1 duel this could be a little better but still is heavily based on opponent quality.

elo ratings wouldnt be very useful in leagues like TWL. the cream already rises to the top.

in leagues that promote parity like TSL and TWDT it would be very useful. if teams are rated equally, having the winning team earn more points or be rated better makes perfect sense

[Banks]

Mark ELO based off wins / game impact.

Separate it into different divisions such as LoL or Overtwatch.

Bronze
Silver
Gold
Platinum
Diamond
Top 10

Doesn’t have to be exactly like that, but something along those lines. And have people play eachother based on what their ELO is. So Bronze and Silver would play together. Then Gold/Plat, then Diamond/Top 10.

As far as how people would fit into each division goes. Have play in matches of around 5-7 at the beginning and then rank players based off how they perform.

[saiyan]

Mark ELO based off wins / game impact.

Separate it into different divisions such as LoL or Overtwatch.

Bronze
Silver
Gold
Platinum
Diamond
Top 10

Doesn’t have to be exactly like that, but something along those lines. And have people play eachother based on what their ELO is. So Bronze and Silver would play together. Then Gold/Plat, then Diamond/Top 10.

As far as how people would fit into each division goes. Have play in matches of around 5-7 at the beginning and then rank players based off how they perform.

As hilarious as that would be (had a good laugh reading it), I am against it. I don't think we have the kind of population to pull that off in any meaningful way, and it would only serve to divide the small remaining community. Would probably be more destructive than anything. Numbers are the way to go. No labels, please.

Dying here as I imagine the trash talk.......

[Jessup]

They use ELO systems in other games that work relatively well. I don't think any system will be 100% perfect, I'm sure there will be some issues but it's a step in the right direction with a lot of potential. There's no reason why we shouldn't at least give it a shot and see if it improves the current system.

We're getting everything set up for TSL and a TWEL 2v2 tournament to run along side one another. We're going to save a 1v1 TWEL for a future date. Announcements coming for both leagues within the next few days.

Ok I am game to try it but just concerned because ELO ratings need a good number of games before it begins to shape itself properly. As I said for ELIM and TWEL I have more confidence with it. The team groups of 5 in dd/jd and 8's for basing is where my concern resides.

Perhaps you guys should use the current TWD stats from the ladder/games played as data input to jump ahead making a proper ELO bell curve with a center alignment.

[Dwopple]

Ok I am game to try it but just concerned because ELO ratings need a good number of games before it begins to shape itself properly. As I said for ELIM and TWEL I have more confidence with it. The team groups of 5 in dd/jd and 8's for basing is where my concern resides.

Perhaps you guys should use the current TWD stats from the ladder/games played as data input to jump ahead making a proper ELO bell curve with a center alignment.

Valid concerns. The plan being discussed w/ qan is to have reduced matches (5 deaths for j/d (10 matches), race to 5 mins for basing (ideally 5 matches per-ship) in order to get enough meaningful test data and improve from there. Will it be perfect the first go around? Probably not, but it's a huge step in the right direction. The idea behind reduced matches is also to mitigate any pain related to boring / unfair matches, particularly for basing. qan may have more to share here when he has some free time.

Lots still being discussed behind the scenes, but we should (hopefully) have a bit more to share after this weekend.

Also, huge shoutout to Rab and BIET (as always) for teaming up on the improved TSLB drafting logic. I've seen some lineup compilations using test per-ship star ratings, and it's a massive improvement over how the previous TSLB season went.

More to come.

[cubone]

?? lol ok dude.. I'm convinced you are 15. Please find something else to do with your time then badly verse against me in a game that was made before you were even born.

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying since you type like you used Google translate. However, I find it funny that you think that me calling you out for constantly whining and pretending you are a great player who is being suppressed by everyone else who plays this game is 'trolling'. As I pointed out earlier, you have whined and complained about every single league for the past 10 years. It's sad. If you spent more time learning how to team and stop being toxic and less time whining on forums about every single perceived injustice you can think of, you might be playable.

[ogron]

Valid concerns. The plan being discussed w/ qan is to have reduced matches (5 deaths for j/d (10 matches), race to 5 mins for basing

Dwopple i think a Blitz format for basing would be great, and a future Basing Cup should be done using it.

you would have to eliminate cramming. see if BIET is willing to code the arena to reset the cram fight (both teams spawning into ear like at the start of the game) when one terr dies and the other lives for 10 seconds (to make sure there's no double Tek about to happen).

this ensures the entire race to 5 minutes is flagroom battle and not cramming.

[Turban]

Alternatively you could do something similar to baseduel where you get a point from wiping enemy team then resetting flag room battle, or have team wipes/terr kills give some extra flag time (+30 seconds as an example) for your team while making it a race to 8 minutes or so.

Food for thought.

[qan]

Alternatively you could do something similar to baseduel where you get a point from wiping enemy team then resetting flag room battle, or have team wipes/terr kills give some extra flag time (+30 seconds as an example) for your team while making it a race to 8 minutes or so.

Food for thought.

This sounds actually exciting. Which is something that in my opinion, basing has always struggled with, being really hit or miss. Has probably the best moments of TW, closest to organized sports in terms of excitement/wow factor, but also many of the worst and most tedious moments, especially from a spectator perspective. Not many want to defend or attack a cram for several minutes straight, and even fewer people want to watch it. That's just not interesting gameplay. It's still interesting from a historic perspective, but it doesn't really do the best the format could. There is so much room for innovation. But I feel like we've been skirting the event horizon of a black hole of 2005 game mechanics for years ... due to a small playerbase that is understandably accustomed to extremely specific, historically-accurate gameplay. We're a time machine. And it's comforting for a lot of people that few things change. At the same time, we attract very few new players because the gameplay is so archaic as to be almost completely impenetrable.

Totally unrelated, another option to add to ideas: could also do best of X wipes (with FR warp after wipe) for rapid, intense engagements. Fighting game of basing. YOU WIN

[Vehicle]

I like the idea of blitz flagroom battles with one asterisk: flag needs to stay king.

If games are won based on clears, a meta could reasonably form that ignores the flag altogether. If we're making games fully flagroom battles, maybe it's time for most points in X minutes to make a comeback?

[Dwopple]

Alternatively you could do something similar to baseduel where you get a point from wiping enemy team then resetting flag room battle, or have team wipes/terr kills give some extra flag time (+30 seconds as an example) for your team while making it a race to 8 minutes or so.

Food for thought.

I like the idea of blitz flagroom battles with one asterisk: flag needs to stay king.

If games are won based on clears, a meta could reasonably form that ignores the flag altogether. If we're making games fully flagroom battles, maybe it's time for most points in X minutes to make a comeback?

This may be exactly what Turban is saying, but keeping with the 'flag time as king' approach. You could do the blitz-style FR battles as a race to 5-8 minutes. Upon a TeK, the flag is reset and both teams are warped back to their ear starting points. Rinse and repeat until one team has enough flag time. This could make for some interesting playstyles where a cornered team could intentionally sacrifice their terr to reset their team to a more-favorable position, while still keeping the excitement of FR fights.

Not sure what the limitations are, but warping a bot on a 3rd freq over the flag could do the trick too, if needed.

[Rab]

The ear might not be the best place for spawn location. Maybe spawn behind the L and widen it a bit, kinda like the fr in ?go fatbase

A consequence of this might be that larger team sizes and variety of team compositions are ok.

[qan]

I like the idea of blitz flagroom battles with one asterisk: flag needs to stay king.

If games are won based on clears, a meta could reasonably form that ignores the flag altogether. If we're making games fully flagroom battles, maybe it's time for most points in X minutes to make a comeback?

Points could be interesting, though that system was always a bit obscure. Still, with flagholding being central to earning points, it would work. Big adjustment in mindset, though.

I posted last night just before bed and didn't really flesh it out, but if doing a Bo3 or Bo5, it would probably be a much-shortened amount of flagtime to win each round (such as 1-2 min) OR clear. (Or, alternatively, first to X points or clear.) You'd have multiple paths to victory without sacrificing the importance of the flag, but still keep the tempo up and always leave open a chance for a comeback. Upset wins/fortune reversals really enhance the drama or overall story told by a game.

There are many possible innovating ideas and directions that would be worth testing out.