Current state of TWD Cup & Pivoting to another league

[Riverside]

Ty ricki, mark, dwoppil, etc 4 contribiting

This is a sampil calendir of leagues for 2022:

(TSL?) Ramp up 2 next league
2-4 weeks
May

TWDT
6-8 weeks (playoffs includid)
June - July

8* Captins or below, efery1 plays
1 draft for wb (Wb Cup),
1 draft for jav (Jav Cup),
1 draft for basing (Basing Cup)
Same star caps as TWDT
4-6 weeks (playoffs includid)
Aug - Sept

TWL Star Cup (hybrid modil)
4-8 weeks
Sept - Nov

Etc.

• Pirhips a poll in the middle of each season 2 c whats wantid next 2 confirm (despite calendir)
• Right before start of playoffs, next league cud b announced with the help of community (HYPE)
• For TWEL id recommend a smallir duel box. Wud considir similar thing for a 2v2 TWEL league.

Why have a league where Captains can't be rated higher than 8*, but everyone (10* too) can signup and play?

• I (and maybe some others) like the idea of a Beer League TWDT: whether it runs alongside a Pro League TWDT, or in many other variations
• This could be a helpful first step in seeing what that looks like

I dun expect any answers, but thought I'd ask some:

Questions (luv u biet n qan n wirih n sprickil):

• Is it easy to set up a Wb Cup, Jav Cup and Basing Cup dev wise?
• Bots primarily, moreso than website?
• Could we re-use whats been done for Basing Cup, onto Warbird and Jav Cup?
• How much work or time relatively?
• Is it shitty work?

Questions outside of the leagues listid above:

• From a skillset POV, is there anything u developer fuks want or need?
• How much code for free time are TW'ers usually looking for in order to contribute?

[Dwopple]

TWEL season leading to a DUEL2 season.

Run those as a side-show alongside a win-based TSL that isn't about k/d.

Woooo these have sparked some great & productive internal discussions on Elo ratings for all TSL leagues in the past few hours. Here are some tidbits...

Long story short, it's possible, and definitely a much better direction than anything relying on star-ratings for matchmaking and quantifying skill in a ship. Elos for dueling leagues are much more straightforward than basing (per-ship ratings = more games needed, accounting players not wanting to play specific ships, among other things). The important takeaway is initial discussions sound optimistic to get something useable for all TSL leagues to have Elo ratings.

With the above in mind, there would need to be a period of qualification and / or testing to tweak the Elo rating itself AND get enough meaningful matches to determine player Elos before officially starting any TSL leagues. That said, there isn't anything holding us back from staggering TSL dueling leagues from basing, while using this testing / qualification period as activity boosters. For basing elo, we're already discussing greatly reducing the race to X minutes so it's not a painful experience for everyone involved, and ways to speed up or semi-automate !adds for captains, while also allowing players to opt-out ahead of time from playing specific ships. Rab has also given us his TSL snake draft code, reliant on per-ship star ratings for players, in case it's not feasible to have a basing Elo in time.

RaCka and I are also discussing running TWEL in some form or fashion alongside the qual / testing & actual TSL league w/ some tweaks based on player feedback to improve scheduling.

Let's face it, with the summer months fast approaching... it is going to be extremely difficult to get 3+ hours of a lot of people's time every Sunday. We need something where missing matches isn't a huge deal for people who want to play and compete (TSL), and something flexible where players can schedule matches that fit their personal availability (TWEL). Everything above should be pretty enticing to keep zone activity afloat until mid-late summer for another TWDT (or 2, or TWD cup) before running TWL.

We are still discussing the approach, timing, and dev feasibility w/ qan and BIET, but now is definitely the time to do this as the Elo rating would be a key building block for any leagues where star ratings are currently used, among other ideas.

Once we know more on the projected dev-time, we'll put together a schedule for everything above.

Stay tuned! (fkin HYPE)

Edit: added mention of Rab's base draft code as a very worthy plan should an Elo rating for base be unfeasible in time.

[Jessup]

This. K/D is meaningless if you don't win. The Jessups out there should not be rewarded for losing, while the selfless players who do the little things that don't always equal k/d should be rewarded for winning.

edit: looks like qan already got to this point. ELO system all the way. Don't reward losers.

Again ? You're something else cupcake. I told you to keep my name outta ur fking mouff. SLAP

[Vehicle]

The suggestion from Qan is amazing and we should really focus on executing that. A legitimate ELO system could have tons of knock-on effects such as an automated jav/wbduel, a zone-wide ladder ranking, or better TWDT draft ratings.

Messaging will be important in that the matchmaking is going to suck in the beginning. Everyone needs to be aware of that.

Rather than trying to bake some evenness in by using DT ratings, maybe do a public beta test before the hard launch and have those scores count for half their usual +- rating. There's probably also some formula where elim ratings could help smooth the initial qualifying period.

It'll only going to suck for a little while but will offer a ton of potential for iteration. Doing a TWEL at the same time is also a good idea. I was also thinking about running some kind of casual baseduel tournament but I have to check my calendar and talk to Sprackle about the bot to find out if it's even feasible.

[Zeebu]

Just run a draft tourny with no star cap

just please dont do this. doing this would water down the inclusive part of twdt and spin the excitement future seasons down the tube. just please god dont do this.

just my opinion, of course.


of course you could do this, i just see this as a step in the direction of ruining the only league that many of the people care about.

[cubone]

Again ? You're something else cupcake. I told you to keep my name outta ur fking mouff. SLAP

Big brain move here. Exalt talking about how useless K/D ratio is so you highlight your K/D ratio.

[Jessup]

Big brain move here. Exalt talking about how useless K/D ratio is so you highlight your K/D ratio.

Keep out of this troll. You can clearly see my W:L rate is 1.2 and exalts is 1. Great call out you caught me owning exalt in every category.

[Jessup]

Btw Elo rating system imo won't work well in Trench Wars. It will favor players on stacked teams and require way too many games to get any decent reflective ladder on players abilities. There is too much potential for a players ELO rating being carried on a high star player's back who they play with constantly. You all realize ELO rating was for chess players and it based off INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE. A Win / Loss stat is a reasonable addition for a rating formula in a ladder placement but to ignore every other skill like time alive and kills/deaths and assists ect will not be reflective in 5 vs 5 team based games in TWDD, TWJD and TWBD.

Elim and 1 vs 1 duel this could be a little better but still is heavily based on opponent quality.

[cubone]

Keep out of this troll. You can clearly see my W:L rate is 1.2 and exalts is 1. Great call out you caught me owning exalt in every category.

And yet, surprising nobody, you still chose to highlight your K/D.

Any TWDT captain would still play Exalt over you so, despite you 'owning' him, you are less valuable.

[Jessup]

And yet, surprising nobody, you still chose to highlight your K/D.

Any TWDT captain would still play Exalt over you so, despite you 'owning' him, you are less valuable.

objection hearsay and speculation from lil cub troll

[cubone]

objection hearsay and speculation from lil cub troll

You have no idea what those words mean. Don't quit your day job. Oh wait...

[Jessup]

You have no idea what those words mean. Don't quit your day job. Oh wait...

?? lol ok dude.. I'm convinced you are 15. Please find something else to do with your time then badly verse against me in a game that was made before you were even born.

[Turban]

TSL with winning only mattering for ELO rating would be dope and would settle many disputes assuming enough games are played by our community. A true solo ladder experience, so to speak.

[beam]

TSL with winning only mattering for ELO rating would be dope and would settle many disputes assuming enough games are played by our community. A true solo ladder experience, so to speak.

I've been pushing for years for twd to be changed to this kind of league with squads being irrelevant ever since borrows were implemented. I think having an elo system in place purely based on wins with a sign up feature similar to what's currently in that eg arena would be amazing.

[RaCka]

Btw Elo rating system imo won't work well in Trench Wars.

They use ELO systems in other games that work relatively well. I don't think any system will be 100% perfect, I'm sure there will be some issues but it's a step in the right direction with a lot of potential. There's no reason why we shouldn't at least give it a shot and see if it improves the current system.

We're getting everything set up for TSL and a TWEL 2v2 tournament to run along side one another. We're going to save a 1v1 TWEL for a future date. Announcements coming for both leagues within the next few days.