"How do we fix TWL?" - An open discussion

[Bosshawk]

i agree and disagree a bit with wadi here

mainly because i think that theres some elitist bullshit here that says that all 16 teams have to be competitive to the point that they have to be a contender or they are too sucky to be in the league....

doesnt matter what sport or game u play there will always be the upper echelon of the league, and the teams striving to get better....so rather then let these teams compete and learn and get better as a team, u would resign them to sitting out and playing weaker caliber teams in twd only

there is more then enough players in TW's to support TWL, but reducing roster size to 25 would definitely be one way to increase competiveness

how many guys are sitting on the bench on decent teams that could be playing on other teams possibly and becoming more solid players...

almost every twl squad has over 30 except a couple, and a couple have more then 35 (pallies with 39 and a-s with 38)

theres 5-10 players per squad (yes i know theres inactives on every roster....) that could fill out other rosters or other squads to make competitive squads

12 TWL squads taking off 5 players average per squad = 60 more players for the league... over 2 more full teams right there
food for thought

as for why TWD is considered a reject league?
because of the attitude of the people in TWL and the people organizing and running TWL and TWD

basically TWD is just their testing grounds for shit for TWL

yet there is far more squads playing in TWD EVERY DAY then there is playing once a week in TWL

along with the fact that the resets were never really done properly

u still punish a twd team for trying to get better by playing a twl squad...

a twd team playing a twl squad shoudl have no bearing on twd rankings whatsoever....... that would motivate them to play good teams more for better practice

[Sufficient]

Good post wadi. Lowering leagues to 12 squads each is a good idea in mu opinion. I still think that a roster limit of 35 is too big tho. And I still think there are some good aspects in splitting up the roster among the leagues (as in having seperate rosters for a TWL team playing all 3 leagues).

[Awesome]

My responses to your responses :S

Just a note on limiting the number of squads.

Please keep in mind that even if squads were limited to 12, Shriek would have still gotten into TWL and the same problems would have still occured.

While having 12 squads would allow all squads to play eachother once and thus create a different type of league, remember that squads will STILL dissolve and that this will STILL affect standings. Actually it will affect standings even more if everyone has the same schedule because then EVERY team will be affected by Shriek dissolving.

Having less teams just means that less people get to play TWL. Is this what you really want? In both TWLD and TWLJ where there are 16 teams now, there are MORE than enough teams out there who WANT to compete that IMO we should let more people play not less. TWL is for the players of Trench Wars not just a select few.

As for a two tier league, I don't even want to get into this except to say that the multi-tier league has contributed to the downfall (at least IMO) of Premier Pro League.

-Epi

Epinephrine, the reason behind my 12 league suggestion (and other people have suggested this as well i've heard) is that it makes the league more fair for the good teams and more competitive.

Epi, check this out.

12 teams per league, 11 week regular seasons

This means EVERY squad faces EVERY other squad that is competiting in the same league. This makes the league more fair to everyone. No complaints about some squads getting easier schedules and you get a better idea of what the top 8 (playoff) teams should be. The way it is now, i think every year a deserving squad will get pushed out of a playoff spot for a less-deserving squad. (whiterabbits last year 6-4, anti-scrub: 4-6 ...who got the playoff spot?) Also see: get rid of conferences.

You say more people want to play TWL and we should let them. I disagree. If they want to play it, let them get better at the game and make leagues all that more exciting when they earn a spot.

Top 16 is not really hard to do even for so called "newbie" squads. Anyone who wants into leagues can get in. Why not make it atleast a challenge to get in so people appreciate what they've got more. And for those who didn't make it, keep practicing for next year.

Would anyone disagree that lowering the teams to 14 for TWLB has made it more competitive and more exciting? I highly doubt it... maybe Tanked since they got left out. But in all honesty, it makes it better when it is more competitive.

^ good idea - damn get this dude working on TWL already

i'd gladly help in any way i could but many staffers dislike me, mostly because of my past... which is understandable. Besides, Pusher and Pure_Luck are capable. I just think they need to make a few changes that would make the leagues better overall. There are always changes that can make it better and i believe at this time, this is the one that needs to be implemented.

Roster limit @ 35 is fine, but if ur gonna announce a roster limit, then actualy go through with it! DOnt say YA ROSTER LIMIT 35! then dont enforce it. You'd almost need another roster page for a TWL roster. I know squads like paladen/others who have retired ppl just sitting on there TWD rosters who wouldnt be a help in TWL. You'd have to have a way for squads to work around thats stuff too. But set a roster limit, even if its less then 35, then actuay enforce it. I dont think any squad really needs 35 members on it. Especialy when there are very FEW 3 league squads (the ones who need the more ppl).

Have you been to the twl website? Each squad has a roster page like this one (my own squads page: here ) and what i think should be implemented for next season is something similar to the twd page for captains. They log in, they go there and there is 35 slots, each with a drop-down box. each drop-down box contains the names of everyone on your TWD roster. So you can have 1 player on ur twd squad per TWL slot. If someone leaves and you have more than 35 people on your TWD page, then go to ur TWL page and fill the slot with the next guy.

-----

on a side-note, yes the shriek thing would've happened no matter what, so i dont think that's an issue for the argument of the league sizes. all i was saying was that the players of that squad should be allowed a set amount of time to find a new squad to compete with for twl. perhaps 5 days or something and deny all of the captains the right to continue in that twl. but it has nothing to do with the roster size issue.

[Vykromond]

Please note that lowering the roster cap drastically will ITSELF GENERATE A GREATER NUMBER OF COMPETITIVE SQUADS. Lowering the number of squads that can get into TWL isn't the only solution. Lowering the roster cap also makes the game more competitive because there would be FAR LESS "player clustering," where all the "elite" players end up on one squad.

Here is what I want to do with roster caps, and please give this some of your thought before saying "no, let's just make it 12 squads":

One league (D or J): 13 players maximum (This allows for two and a half separate lines. That's all you need if you're a dedicated squad. I'm taking my cue from a professional sport that is played 5 on 5, basketball. Basketball teams have 15 players each, but teams are only allowed to bring 12 of these players to any game for possible play. And the eleventh and twelfth men never play. Having less slots for players makes squad captains think more about who they want to accept. That's a good idea, and a step in the right direction vis a vis what Ephemeral was talking about.)
One league (B): 19 players maximum (Two lines, three subs- just like D/J.)
Two leagues (D & J): 18 players maximum (A line for each league, and eight (!) subs. Start thinking about who can play in both. Squads shouldn't be able to jam-pack themselves with EXCLUSIVE jav players and EXCLUSIVE wb players. This still allows for that, but to a MUCH lesser extent. Also: I want to make competing in multiple leagues more difficult. It should be more difficult! Pursuing the Triple Crown should require a lean, mean team of players who can do EVERYTHING. You just want to win TWLD? Get 13 warbirds.)
Two leagues (D or J, and B): 21 players maximum (There aren't that many squads that fulfill this criterion. But still, a line for each league and eight subs.)
Three leagues (Triple Crown): 25 players maximum (A line for each league, and seven subs. It should be difficult to win this league!)

[Vykromond]

do something about the average player maturity

*blinks* How exactly do you think this should be done? Forced aging? Mature-O-Bots?

[bloodzombie]

I severely dislike the idea of forcing lower roster limits. The season is long and people can't always show up, and after a certain time, you can't add to your lineup.

UNLESS what you're saying is that we could have as many as we want for TWD, then have seperate TWL rosters... like I would be on pallies TWLB roster, but not on the LJ or LD rosters, some people could be on two or three rosters within pallies... However, that woudln't accomplish what you're looking for, which is to create more competetive squads.

The most important flaw in your system though, is that not all squads are made just to win TWL... we've got guys on our roster that were here from the beginning.. they suck at spaceships.. we should have to drop them now if we want to compete?

enforce the 35 player limit, even 30 if you must (I think that's too low for a team playing all 3 leagues), but don't go lower than that.

[Vykromond]

I severely dislike the idea of forcing lower roster limits. The season is long and people can't always show up, and after a certain time, you can't add to your lineup.

The season is about three months long, and they're summer months. I think that the lineup limits I proposed allow for a certain degree of flexibility, as much as is necessary.

UNLESS what you're saying is that we could [ . . . ] have seperate TWL rosters... like I would be on pallies TWLB roster, but not on the LJ or LD rosters, some people could be on two or three rosters within pallies... However, that woudln't accomplish what you're looking for, which is to create more competetive squads.

Absolutely not.

The most important flaw in your system though, is that not all squads are made just to win TWL... we've got guys on our roster that were here from the beginning.. they suck at spaceships.. we should have to drop them now if we want to compete?

No. They can be ?squadjoined without being on the TWL roster.

[Jeansi]

there's too much text in too few posts


JEROOOOMEE HONEY! Get over here!

[Vykromond]

there's too much text in too few posts


JEROOOOMEE HONEY! Get over here!

Oh, God no.

[Capital Knockers]

I think one of the biggest things that needs to be done, isn't something that requires tons of work. We already have a fairly worthy system for TWL, the problem is, things are defective and rules aren't fully enforced. TWL would be much more successful if more dedication were put into it. If the current staff doesn't have that kind of time, or doesn't feel like putting the effort in, the shouldn't be on staff. Not trying to take a shot at staff, just a general statement.

Also, we seem to have tons of people in TW who are filled with ideas. Let's use Awesome for example (hope you don't mind ). Everytime I surf these forums, awesome has something to say about how things could be fixed. How often do you see staffers reply? How often do you see any change? Do you people even read what any of us have to say? Why would you bother putting any work whatsoever into this zone, if your ignoring the people that play it?

Now Awesome isn't the only one. Tons of people have great ideas to many obvious problems. In fact, threads like this are fucking goldmines. The problems TWL has aren't impossible to fix at all. All it takes is some dedication and hard work.

What staff doesn't realize is, we want to help you guys. Sure we take shots at you 24/7 - but who else is there to take shots at? If you guys can't think of how to fix something, surf the forums, or make a post asking for help. No one would think any less of you, in fact, I'd see it as major improvement. What if some newb with 7 posts happens to be some grwat programmer, and ends up answering a question thats been pestering you for ages? Give it a shot!

If the staff members involved in TWL aren't willing to put the required amount of work into TWL, get off the project. Once again, not bashing, we know you have lives, but if you can't keep up with what your doing - why do it? You just get flamed around every corner for every little screw up, spend some time teaching the newer guys, the dudes with no lives and a bunch of ambition. It'll give TWL a much brighter future.

[Ephemeral]

Rather than debate the number of squads and number of games, consider this...
If there are 12 teams and each has a roster of 35 people, that is a total of 420 people. What is the total number of people that will be active in the summer league? Is there statistics for how many people have participated in the previous seasons? Can we use those numbers to extrapolate how many players can be expected to play (accounting for some growth)?

From a slightly different perspective, isn’t the ideal number of teams about the same as last year but allowing for a small amount of growth? Don’t professional sports leagues consider expansion with a method like this? If one year the league supported 10 teams, then wouldn’t it make sense to consider 12 teams the next year?

[Xog]

I severely dislike the idea of forcing lower roster limits. The season is long and people can't always show up, and after a certain time, you can't add to your lineup.

UNLESS what you're saying is that we could have as many as we want for TWD, then have seperate TWL rosters... like I would be on pallies TWLB roster, but not on the LJ or LD rosters, some people could be on two or three rosters within pallies... However, that woudln't accomplish what you're looking for, which is to create more competetive squads.

The most important flaw in your system though, is that not all squads are made just to win TWL... we've got guys on our roster that were here from the beginning.. they suck at spaceships.. we should have to drop them now if we want to compete?

enforce the 35 player limit, even 30 if you must (I think that's too low for a team playing all 3 leagues), but don't go lower than that.

I agree bz, it totally makes sense. I can't understand who would disagree with this

[TajaUk]

The problem is that TWL encourages squads to be created with the sole purpose to qualify for TWL. These squads are unstable, full of squad-hoppers and generally lead very poorly.

Squads like *** are a prime example, 20 odd lamers that dont give a flying fuk about what squad their in, spend 2 weeks beating newbies to qualify from a dropout and then cant handle a beat or two, disolve.

Until TWL stops promoting squads like this then your always gonna get problems.

The league should be full of stable squads, yes you wont get the MOST competive league ever but I am sure everyone would prefer a league where the chances of a squad disolving are virtually nil.

[destroy]

Holyshit guys, do you really expect people to read all of your fucking essays on a cumputer game league?

The leagues are fine just as they are now. It's definately not the league's fault that Shriek decided to cheat and that whipe/eliteclan/saiyansoldiers have had bad captains and have dissolved.

Let's just fucking shoot the spaceships.

[Fit of Rage]

Three leagues (Triple Crown): 25 players maximum (A line for each league, and seven subs. It should be difficult to win this league!)

25 is a bit low to manage on, as a few people on your roster may not be as active as others. We should have an enforced roster cap, either 35 or 30 like bz said.