Announcement: The Return of TWL + New League Ops

[Rab]

I agree with bram about greens.

[Turban]

Thanks for your response, Bram.

To give shed some light on certain matters, here are some answers granted we still have to go through the small details and practical implementation of things before finalizing anything, and thus everything is still subject to change and .. well, I suppose take it with a grain of salt for now:

Of course deciding beforehand if a squad is 'high' 'mid' or 'lower' tier is an option, but when/who decides this? Before/after TWL qualification? What to do with roster locks etc?

Looking at TWDT ratings, the 'top' players are TWL starting quality for 2 - 3 leagues. But the lower you go in rank, the less capable players are at holding their own in more than 1 league.
TWL needs clear roster limit rules which A) make it more difficult for the elite core to stack-up but B) without hurting the 'lower' level squads like Paladen in being able to participate (not being able to sign up enough players for TWL to compete in 3 leagues)
I'd suggest something like this (these numbers are a mere suggestion of what I've been reading in this thread).

League(s)	Type	8* max	<7* or <21* total	max total players
1	TWLD or J	6	6	12
1	TWLB	8	6	14
2	TWLD+J	10	6	16
2	TWLD or J +B	12	8	20
3	TWLD+J+B	14	11	25

Meaning: you sign-up for only LD, you can have max 6 players with 8* in LD. You sign-up for TWLJ+LB you can have max 12 players with 8* in either LJ or LB. (so you could stack for LD and play with weaker line in LB). Same for 3 leagues, you can have 14 players with 8* (in any league), so you could max out for 1 league and be weaker in the others.

- This requires that after TWDT a team of Ogron, mythril etc. re-evaluates all ratings of those who signed up for this TWDT season (or keep it as is). Any player who doesn't have a rating yet and wants to play in TWL, contacts TWL staff for a rating (looking at the team it's more than capable enough to set good ratings). (Maybe have *ratings visible on your TWD-profile? not a must).
- There obviously won't be a *limit for lineups in TWL, but a squad like Paladen could realistically need 25 players to be semi-competitive in LD/LJ/LB while Thunder could win all 3 titles with a core of 14 (yet we don't want Thunder to fill up with 25 elite players, however it's okay if they fill up their roster with players ranked <7* (if they want to have backups)).
- This could also still apply if you'd split TWLD/J from LB. Which I'm not against, but I'm siding with Commodo/Tiny, it just feels a bit weird/complicated and wouldn't go against stacking at all..?

Splitting basing from dueling leagues does not necessarily combat all stacking issues as that is more so what the participation requirements are meant to encourage, however it would increase the quality of games in TWLJ and TWLD which are the healthiest leagues by a large margin. We are already seeing some players who used to be stuck on three-league squads due to their specialization on a certain ships starting to split into smaller and more competitive rosters. We will have to see how the situation continues to develop as proper announcements start to be made both on the forums and in-game.

I am a basing enthusiast as well, but in my opinion having 22 or more players per team does not seem that healthy when looking it from a competitive perspective because several of those players in a roster actually have the skill to play at a high level in other leagues. However, as these large rosters may only field up to 5 players per dueling league you inevitably have several quality players benching every season despite being more than good enough to play at a high level. These changes are not stopping anyone from staying on their current rosters and playing on a three-league squad, however I do know many players who would have loved to participate in TWLJ or TWLD competitively and could not due to their commitment to their three-league squad already being stacked in the dueling leagues.

We could continue using the old system, but you will end up with two or with some luck three super rosters with almost no competition left for dueling leagues, but I digress.

Basing is unfortunately in a sorry state, and has been for several years now. There are some alternative options to get around this such as no longer calling it TWLB and perhaps run some sort of league with predesignated Captains together with a Terrier + Shark combination, but not sure whether this is what the community would want over a relatively standard TWLB season.

.. and lastly, we could look into being more lenient with roster limits for so-called mid to low tier squads, but no promises as we don't really want to show signs of favoritism in the premier league of Trench Wars.

I'd say 25% of games played and/or playing in the finals. If the team needed you for less, than you weren't important enough to get a medal. (don't take away my TWLD medal in retrospect though.. )

We would not be taking away past medals, however the new ones would be more exclusive and players would need to earn their titles. The initial numbers (which are still subject to change) would be around three regular season games which is roughly 25% of the games, and three playoff games and/or participating in the finals.

Oh boy, I already disliked when basing got changed from pointrace to timed race (I loved those milking strategies back in the day.. :P)

In short: Keep burst/portal/FC greens but not as team greens for terr OR only keep FC greens but not as team and give terr a timed new burst @ 1 min alive) / port @ 2 min alive). No strong opinion on greening shrap/repel (except would hate to play shark without it)
Long:
- For spider: I agree FCs are a strategy for (aggressive) spiders, and I think they're very important for breaking the cram. Pushing together, so you can pick up a green (hopefully extra rep / fc) can be vital to have a chance to breakthrough. Obviously attacking team dies a lot more than the defending team (+ for defending team usually the shark = green for attacking team). I think without FCs you'd see very long and boring crams, camping becomes an even more important strategy.
As for FR-battles I really think it's important to give the aggressive spiders this 'bonus' of picking up more greens = more FCs = better chance at making a decisive move. Again camping will become more popular other wise.
- For Terr: I really dislike the team FCs for terr. It's such random luck, and has nothing to do with the game. As for team burst/portal, 2 options: 1) no more team green ANYTHING for terr, so terr has to start picking up greens itself (new focus for terr, I'd really like this) 2) standard 1 portal @ 2 min alive and 1 burst @ 1 min alive (if possible). My favorite terr of all time was Mythrandir, who played terr as an attacking ship. Having less burst / portals really hurts the terr, the game already has no terrs left who dare to play like Mythrandir would.. Less bursts/portals/fcs = more focus on 100% defense/safe play = booooring. I think no team greens for terr would be a great idea.
- For Shark: I really dislike when a shark has a ton of shraps, but on the other hand, a shark who changes it's gameplay the moment it's loaded with shrap and starts mining/bombing the shit out the FR/base is a proper element of basing to me. The extra rep pick-up, meh, can be a game changer at times, yes/no I wouldn't mind it gone.

People have the tendency to hate changes. It is out of the norm, after all.

However rest assured, we are thinking the basing changes through properly and will be gathering player opinions on the side. We hope to be able to test this in practice in both TWBD and Base as soon as possible as it is important for players to get accustomed to new changes, assuming we go through with it, and to provide constructive feedback after properly testing out the changes in practice.

Here are the current drop chances for greens in TWLB for the curious ones:

MultiFire	44.35%
XRadar	8.70%
Shrapnel	17.39%
Repel	17.39%
Burst	8.70%
Portal	3.48%

Shrapnel is synonymous with Full Charge in case you were unaware of the game mechanics within our zone. X-Radar is given as Full Charge to following ships: Warbird, Spider, Leviathan, Weasel, and Lancaster. Terrier, Javelin, and Shark get X-Radar instead.

We would look into periodically prizing bursts and portals to terriers with the prizing intervals being very close to numbers you mentioned in your post as it is very close to the average of what you should be getting in a match. We feel this change would add an extra layer of depth and strategy to the ship while also eliminating those random bursts of luck where you get every item imaginable to turn the tides of battle in your favor. Terrier in its current form is almost like playing Russian roulette; sometimes you get extremely lucky and get what you want, and at times you go through periods of drought while the opponent lives next to a bountiful oasis.

Shark is also open for discussion. We can opt into shark having no shrapnel which brings for more boring game play, or alternatively have sharks spawn with three shrapnel on every death which is going to be a bit too oppressive. The third option, which is my favorite, would have sharks rotate shrapnel states with first death being without shrapnel and second one being with a 3-shrapnel pattern. Currently there is a 53.04% chance for a shark to spawn with 3-shrapnel pattern or greater, and the last change would normalize the drops without ruining the potential to make plays. In theory, this could even change the ship for the better as you know when you will be having shrapnel for certain and can take advantage of it.

Extra repels bring an unnecessary element of luck to the game where you can easily save the cram from the defensive side allowing your team to get potentially several extra minutes of flag time or even winning you the game. It also tends to be rather toxic to deal with in flag room skirmishes where the extra added control for both defensive and offensive purposes is very disruptive, and it also takes away from skill of counting repels of enemy sharks and timing pushes accordingly when playing as spider.

As for the third pointer, Full Charges in their current form are overall not healthy to the game. There are some definite positives, such as when attacking and trying to break the cram, however in my opinion these positives do not outweigh the negatives they bring to the game. Essentially these greens create several low to no risk - high reward scenarios, and additionally grabbing these items significantly help out terriers to stay at full energy values much easier which further lowers the skill required to perform at a high level. It is an awful feeling for an aggressive spider to time attack the enemy terrier only for a full charge to save him or her from certain death. These changes do punish overly aggressive players, but also rewards those who are accurately shooting and dodging in flag room. It goes both ways, and rewards skillful play over luck.

To combat the potential cram breaking issue, which definitely is a good concern to have and you made a good point about greens slightly favoring the attacking team, there is always the option to make slight alterations to the current map layout similar to what was done to the TWLB map many seasons ago with removal of those two tiles on the sides of cram. However my personal opinion is that the removal of full charges and repels will not make a big difference when it comes to breaking cram as extra repels and full charges tend to have far more impact on the defensive side rather than offensive side. We would need to see how it feels like in practice.

[Jessup]

To me the most annoying thing in base is shrap . I'd love to see that gone lol. Whatever y'all decide tho.

[Dreamwin]

I also agree with bram. He made few really good points. I wouldn't change too much right now. Bringing variance to the game is good and definitely favors the weaker teams. The specatators would lose so many "LOL"-trains if basing was to become greenless. My biggest fear is that the game would become too monotone because lets face it, it's quite simple already.

[Turban]

I suppose the question we have to ask ourselves is do we want a more fair and competitive basing experience, where individual and team skill makes more of a difference, or do we want one with a lot of random elements that are mostly out of the players' control. The latter option allows for more "fun" game play moments, which is definitely a good point some of you are making.

We will go through a proper testing phase in TWBD and Base and are more than willing to revert some or all changes before season the begins depending on player feedback.

"Inaction is followed by stagnation. Stagnation is followed by pestilence and pestilence is followed by death."

[Majorcrisis2]

I suppose the question we have to ask ourselves is do we want a more fair and competitive basing experience, where individual and team skill makes more of a difference, or do we want one with a lot of random elements that are mostly out of the players' control. The latter option allows for more "fun" game play moments, which is definitely a good point some of you are making.

We will go through a proper testing phase in TWBD and Base and are more than willing to revert some or all changes before season the begins depending on player feedback.

"Inaction is followed by stagnation. Stagnation is followed by pestilence and pestilence is followed by death."

Random elements would give 'worse' teams a better chance imo. If its all skill, you know who will be on top..

[Dabram]

Turban
I get your point about splitting up LD/LJ and LB, also from the LD/LJ point of view. With splitting up, all leagues should have more players involved who would otherwise bench out in a league they would start in (in a TWDT format). Hopefully the dev-team can find a good way around it in TWD (allow doublesquadding?) or there will be a constant need for borrowing. Maybe practicing will become a bit confusing though if both your squads want you to participate in games.. Though that kind of activity would be a luxury in 2019..

[RoDNeY]

Take away shark shrapnel and ill probably quit tbh, sharks live in 6 second windows. We spend most the game watching through the death screen. For those of us that know how to aim shrap angles and how to apply pressure/break cram with our shrapnel shots we love shrap. Is there a degree of luck with some shrap sometimes? Of course! We are also risking a lot putting down a mine with the chances it gets repped back into our team. Risk it to get the biscuit. I do however like the option of shrapnel states every 2nd and 3rd deaths like was mentioned above, if any change were to be made i wouldnt be too upset if that was the one implemented.

Repels im kind of in the same boat about, my play style i am a green scavenger. When im holding a cram and pushing out of cram you best believe i am charging at greens hoping for an extra rep to push the enemy even farther away. Watching two sharks repel against each other fighting for the same green during a cram hold is hilarious and happens multiple times in every game. Have you ever felt the rush of getting a 4th rep that single handedly saves your team? an even more rare 5th rep? Hell ive had 6 reps that saves the team when my shark partner gets hit by a DoA. I understand you guys are trying to normalize the green system but lets be honest thats what adds a level of surprise and uncertainty to this game. Basing is so damn dynamic because there are so many ways to approach every situation.

Watching a terr make narrowing escapes through the FR and port burst port burst in sequence as frustrating as it may be is fucking beautiful when executed in a way that it revives their team and keeps the battle going.

Greens are random yes, they trigger us and they excite us. They make basing dynamic and unlike the other leagues, do what you will with them just be responsible about it and dont make basing boring.

[olde]

Lol could you imagine a TWLD level game played on cheat reso ppl play Wb on nowadays. Might as well just sit against the wall on opposite sides of the map and hold shoot for 20mins. Put a reso cap on LD #MAKETWLDGREATAGAIN

[Majorcrisis2]

Take away shark shrapnel and ill probably quit tbh, sharks live in 6 second windows. We spend most the game watching through the death screen. For those of us that know how to aim shrap angles and how to apply pressure/break cram with our shrapnel shots we love shrap. Is there a degree of luck with some shrap sometimes? Of course! We are also risking a lot putting down a mine with the chances it gets repped back into our team. Risk it to get the biscuit. I do however like the option of shrapnel states every 2nd and 3rd deaths like was mentioned above, if any change were to be made i wouldnt be too upset if that was the one implemented.

Repels im kind of in the same boat about, my play style i am a green scavenger. When im holding a cram and pushing out of cram you best believe i am charging at greens hoping for an extra rep to push the enemy even farther away. Watching two sharks repel against each other fighting for the same green during a cram hold is hilarious and happens multiple times in every game. Have you ever felt the rush of getting a 4th rep that single handedly saves your team? an even more rare 5th rep? Hell ive had 6 reps that saves the team when my shark partner gets hit by a DoA. I understand you guys are trying to normalize the green system but lets be honest thats what adds a level of surprise and uncertainty to this game. Basing is so damn dynamic because there are so many ways to approach every situation.

Watching a terr make narrowing escapes through the FR and port burst port burst in sequence as frustrating as it may be is fucking beautiful when executed in a way that it revives their team and keeps the battle going.

Greens are random yes, they trigger us and they excite us. They make basing dynamic and unlike the other leagues, do what you will with them just be responsible about it and dont make basing boring.

Totally agree with you. Shark and terr will probably be unplayable with those changes imo, atleast for me. Basing should stay dynamic like this. Removing the blocks in cram, gave us more FR fights. Shrap angles change made it playable for everyone imo. These changes look like more cram battles imo.

[Efhat]

I do not think there should be any changes to basing.
The settings that we have had for years now is not the reason why basing is in an inactive state. And it would take out a lot of unexpected factors that have made basing so entertaining.
It is the stacking issue.
I truly think squads that are competing this next TWL should have strict roster limits. Very strict depending on what leagues they are competing in.
Squads should register for what league they are competing in. One league squads certain roster spots. Basing only can be discussed. A team competing in just LD or LJ should not have no more than 9-10 player roster. It is more than enough.
Two league squads certain roster spots
Three league squads certain roster spots.
Even with squads like, Thunder, would have to pick wisely on what players they want on their rosters to compete in a three league capacity.
They will not be able to afford an extra shark or extra spider or two or terrier on the roster if they need that space for another player that would need for maybe LD or LJ.
I also think there should be a faster hard lock so players who have an idea that they will not have much of an impact on their current squads during leagues can jump ship.
Players who are not locked in will NOT get a medal. Preventing them from sitting on the roster and free-collecting a medal.
Ultimateltely it is up to the players on how much they want to spread talent but the foundation she be based off of strict rosters.

[ogron]

Players have been racking up worthless medals for years, I don't see what difference it makes at this point.

Since the TWL and TWDT arena graphics came out years ago, the amount of benchers bragging about unearned titles has decreased precipitously.

Should be plenty enough incentive to actually play.

[Falconeer]

Shark is also open for discussion. We can opt into shark having no shrapnel which brings for more boring game play, or alternatively have sharks spawn with three shrapnel on every death which is going to be a bit too oppressive. The third option, which is my favorite, would have sharks rotate shrapnel states with first death being without shrapnel and second one being with a 3-shrapnel pattern. Currently there is a 53.04% chance for a shark to spawn with 3-shrapnel pattern or greater, and the last change would normalize the drops without ruining the potential to make plays. In theory, this could even change the ship for the better as you know when you will be having shrapnel for certain and can take advantage of it.

Extra repels bring an unnecessary element of luck to the game where you can easily save the cram from the defensive side allowing your team to get potentially several extra minutes of flag time or even winning you the game. It also tends to be rather toxic to deal with in flag room skirmishes where the extra added control for both defensive and offensive purposes is very disruptive, and it also takes away from skill of counting repels of enemy sharks and timing pushes accordingly when playing as spider.

As for the third pointer, Full Charges in their current form are overall not healthy to the game. There are some definite positives, such as when attacking and trying to break the cram, however in my opinion these positives do not outweigh the negatives they bring to the game. Essentially these greens create several low to no risk - high reward scenarios, and additionally grabbing these items significantly help out terriers to stay at full energy values much easier which further lowers the skill required to perform at a high level. It is an awful feeling for an aggressive spider to time attack the enemy terrier only for a full charge to save him or her from certain death. These changes do punish overly aggressive players, but also rewards those who are accurately shooting and dodging in flag room. It goes both ways, and rewards skillful play over luck.

To combat the potential cram breaking issue, which definitely is a good concern to have and you made a good point about greens slightly favoring the attacking team, there is always the option to make slight alterations to the current map layout similar to what was done to the TWLB map many seasons ago with removal of those two tiles on the sides of cram. However my personal opinion is that the removal of full charges and repels will not make a big difference when it comes to breaking cram as extra repels and full charges tend to have far more impact on the defensive side rather than offensive side. We would need to see how it feels like in practice.

I've read this, you make compelling arguments here and actually list pros and cons. So I lean more toward agreeing on testing these out.

Still not agreeing with bursts every 60 seconds however, currently how often on average does a terrier have a burst? how would a reward of burst every 60 seconds affect this?

[Turban]

I've read this, you make compelling arguments here and actually list pros and cons. So I lean more toward agreeing on testing these out.

Still not agreeing with bursts every 60 seconds however, currently how often on average does a terrier have a burst? how would a reward of burst every 60 seconds affect this?

This is a good question that many might not have put much thought into, and hat's pretty much to be expected with most replies anyway as anything that is out of players' comfort zone tends to be met with much negativity.

Bursts have an 8.70% chance with current settings to be found inside a green. I took a look into the average amount of greens that is grabbed during the match across severalmatches in an 8vs8 setting and the numbers averaged out to roughly 30 total greens eaten per minute. There is generally speaking a very even split between both teams and no team has an enormous advantage no matter how the match played out. There was a variance between 27 and 34 greens eaten per minute, depending on the match, however it averaged out to the aforementioned number. We can simply run these numbers and simulate the average amount of bursts and portals terriers should be getting throughout the game.

Currently several bursts and portals go to waste as it is sub-optimal to use these items immediately upon receiving one in the off chance of your team getting lucky and replacing your used item within a matter of seconds. We feel these items are meant to be used as strategic tools to aid one in the battle.

On average terriers should be getting 1.3 bursts per minute and 0.52 portals per minute. However when considering the statement above about how many items generally speaking go to waste due to the nature of the game, it makes sense to slightly adjust these numbers.

[Turban]

I do not think there should be any changes to basing.
The settings that we have had for years now is not the reason why basing is in an inactive state. And it would take out a lot of unexpected factors that have made basing so entertaining.
It is the stacking issue.
I truly think squads that are competing this next TWL should have strict roster limits. Very strict depending on what leagues they are competing in.
Squads should register for what league they are competing in. One league squads certain roster spots. Basing only can be discussed. A team competing in just LD or LJ should not have no more than 9-10 player roster. It is more than enough.
Two league squads certain roster spots
Three league squads certain roster spots.
Even with squads like, Thunder, would have to pick wisely on what players they want on their rosters to compete in a three league capacity.
They will not be able to afford an extra shark or extra spider or two or terrier on the roster if they need that space for another player that would need for maybe LD or LJ.
I also think there should be a faster hard lock so players who have an idea that they will not have much of an impact on their current squads during leagues can jump ship.
Players who are not locked in will NOT get a medal. Preventing them from sitting on the roster and free-collecting a medal.
Ultimateltely it is up to the players on how much they want to spread talent but the foundation she be based off of strict rosters.

Thanks for your response.

You are correct about how settings are not being the reason as to why basing has been at such a decline over the past 10 years. It is more on the community side refusing to split out of their comfort zone in order to maximize their odds of winning a title in an online top-down 2D spaceship shooter game, and also due to our continually diminishing player base with many no longer having the time or passion to continue playing our wonderful game.

However can you really fault these players for being competitive and wanting to play with their friends while choosing to ignore the full picture and how their actions may or may not affect the zone? Not really, in my opinion. The fact is we should not be expecting the majority of our players to be thinking about the well-being of our zone and its competitive state as most of our players simply log on to disconnect from reality to have fun with their friends. We can encourage positive actions and behavior, but forcing the issue too much has its clear negatives.

Our initial idea regarding roster limits is to essentially have a separate roster for TWLB where you can allocate up to 14 players. These limited roster spots would be only for league play and no one outside this roster could participate in basing league matches. Only players allocated to this roster would be eligible for an end of season title should the team win while players still having to meet the activity requirements. This initial number could very well change to be even stricter, however for now it would allow teams to have at least 3 spiders, 1 shark, and 1 terriers as potential backups on their rosters. These limits and requirements do not fully combat all the issues regarding potential stacking and do favor teams who are capable of picking up players talented enough to play several basing ships at a high level, but it is at least a good start. In the end we are putting ourselves at the mercy of our community, hoping for many to be brave enough to step out of their comfort zone and create or play with new people.

Essentially it means one league squads would have a roster limit of 9 players, two league squads would have a roster limit of 13 players. If a team would also want to participate in basing, they can allocate up to 14 players to participate in the basing league, but these players would not be eligible to win titles in TWLJ or TWLD unless they are also on the dueling roster.

We are hoping to see more competitive teams to form over the coming weeks, and are all open ears for any suggestions to improve the state of basing, or anything else about the league.