We have a problem folks.

[Majorcrisis2]

Grasps when we started Potenza back in about 2008 with no name/casual twdd players we got shit stomped for a bit, but we practiced together and ended up being the top wb squad for a few years. We started at the bottom MY man and earned it....Then we made Force for TWL and ended up winning with JUST 2 new squad mates "skep and saix. You gotta earn it man like everyone ealse did. Noone started off elite. Just saying bud. EARN IT, PRACTICE! I'd start a squad with just potenza core but none of us are active enough and have high chance of Not showing on sundays so we split up between Monster/sweet.

You are right, but dont forget the times have changed. Twd isnt as active as before, people have less time to play. And also most people have played this game 10+ years, is it likely that they will improve? 95% wont. I guess we just have to accept the situation.

[Mythril]

Have to agree with the sentiment in the responses. In literally every single TWL season for the last 20 years, there have always been only 3-4 squads with a realistic shot to win the title. It looks like this season might even surpass that quota in warbird. TWL is competition at the highest level, and the players who are at that level are the people playing for the most prestigious championships in the game. It's on the rest of the playerbase to improve. The game is active enough to be able to do so and I think we're finally seeing some of that improvement. TWL gives up and coming players valuable experience against playing against the top guys. Like olde said, we've all had to climb the ladder.

I also disagree that TWL is about to kill the zone. The zone was dead for the last 4 months prior to TWDT, and let's not pretend the TSL season that was ran kept it afloat. We can run anything in the next few months and we'll be able to bounce back. By the end of TWL, we'll be tired of it and ready for another inclusive TWDT. What's key here is we break the cycle of TWDT or bust that's plagued the zone for the last 2 years. It's gonna be fine. The TWL team is doing great work.

[Undercut]

I've been keeping a close eye on rosters at this point in the days leading up to the start of TWL and I'm quite happy with what we have going for us so far. We have at least a few competitive squad in each league so far and quite a few players that haven't even chosen their squad yet. These few squads have strong rosters with a good starting core and a decent bench but that is what I expected for this season of TWL. If we forced players to split up and make 8 squads with a top player on all of them the whole point of TWL becomes lost. The goal of TWL is to have the best squads in the zone compete against each other in their respective leagues. The problem with TWL rosters was that there were squads with entire starting squads sitting on their bench year after year but I'm not seeing that this year. Some squads have 1-2 starting quality players on their bench but you have to when you're putting together a team. What happens to a squad if one of their starters can't show due to irl commitments? I would much rather have their subs be respectable in their ship then watch them have to sub in a lower quality player. If players want to go somewhere they will start then those players will. If the players are happy benching and watching from spec during the season then that's their choice, and you have to respect that decision. I can't force players to split up and make 8 squads that are capable of winning a title because nobody would want to play TWL like that. That kind of thing is exactly what TWDT is for.

The problem that I'm seeing here is that the newer players don't want to have to improve to compete in these leagues and want competition handed to them on a silver platter. I don't expect to be able to start on a squad capable of winning TWLD or TWLJ this season because I'm not a good warbird or jav. It's just that simple. If I want to compete in those leagues I need to play those ships and improve enough for a top quality squad to want to recruit me and give me playing time.

As for the lag limits this TWL, it's quite honestly a slippery slope. I want to lower the lag limits to exclude the players that purposefully turn on their torrents or open 1200 youtube tabs in chrome during TWL games, but I don't want to exclude the players who happen to play from Europe or Asia or even Australia. I want everyone to be able to play on an even playing field during TWL but I don't want to just sit here and go "well you're from Finland so you can't play TWL because you lag more than me". If you have any suggestions for me or can offer some kind of insight that I'm not seeing please absolutely feel free to tell me. I openly welcome any and all feedback on these forums or in game and will be more than happy to have a discussion with anyone willing to talk to me. This community needs more open discussions and I wish that there was some way to generate interest in helping out with things like this but for some reason people are refusing to help me out other than with the usual crying of how they want things done and why their way is the only way.

I want this season of TWL to be successful and I'm doing absolutely everything in my power to make it happen for you guys. Turban and Lockdown as well as the rest of league staff are working extremely hard and we hope that we can put something on for you guys that you will appreciate and hopefully by the time it's over look back on and be happy with. I just want you guys to know that I do read everything you type here and I am paying attention to all of it. I'm putting in 200% effort this TWL and we are looking at every angle on everything before we make any changes or implement anything during the season.

[Grasps]

\_("/)_/

[Falconeer]

Just let the four stacked squads have their league? And don't bring new squads into it.

Pretty sure they will cry the league sucks eventually with only four teams in.

When all four squads are at the table ready to discuss or quit, then you can change system.

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ― Buckminster ...


This is Kantian ethics, to will into reality an extreme of a situation to see if it would be good as a universal law. In this case we say, every squad must be stacked, if a squad can't stack they can't play in league and will be dissolved, since they would lose anyway and waste everyone's time with matches. Now when every squad is stacked in every league for the next 5 years, we can see what happens to the zone, and the players on the stacked squads. Will they actually want this? enjoy this? will the league be fun with so few squads? Apparently only I can do hypotheticals here and know the answer... some other people require learning by experience... so you actually have to act this out to teach something.

[Jones]

geio is a good example of good squads which were happy to bench a mediocre players and teach him the ropes. Now he finally has what it takes. (hopefullly).

Major Crisis is a hypocrite who wasn't always like this, until he sided with envy who hoarded most of the good players, which was a result to curb whatever incarnation of thunder or dice was active at the time.

Look, these things will always happen, whether you want it or not. I will talk about my own squad for a minute. (Sweet).

As for myself, I thought Wolf was a good squad where lots of people were around and I could DD whenever I logged on. I wouldnt have changed if it werent for Eric Clapton (vt).

Sweet has not had a conversation yet regarding joining TWL. We are just a bunch of old farts who enjoy playing with each other. And as soon as vt started playing again, I,joined, Riverside joined (dont know if he even left) some Potenza guys joined, Caos, who is Sweet gen 1 joined. Etc. We're like a brand, like coca-cola, if something happens, people will join or remove themselves. It has nothing to do with stacking. We had NO ONE except for maybe me and Caos rejoining and a bunch of names that have been inactive for years... Suddenly we are stacked. Well, Sweet has some of the best players in history attached to its name. You can argue that how much you want, Beam.

But, all it took, was VT to play again, me and Riv joined immediately some great guys from our core just happened to want to play again and we are top tier. Just like that.

It's not fair. It may not be the truth. But Sweet is the favorite to win warbirds, considering I am somewhat active again. Stacking is inevitable. Sorry but deal with it.

[olde]

You are right, but dont forget the times have changed. Twd isnt as active as before, people have less time to play. And also most people have played this game 10+ years, is it likely that they will improve? 95% wont. I guess we just have to accept the situation.

I dont agree with that about dueling leagues, it's not about individual skill level, yes sure it helps in 1v1 situations. Its about getting a few players together getting comfortable, gaining trust in each other, and figuring how to be efficient as a whole and playing roles on your squad, Just have to be willing to understand why you lost a match communicate and fix it. Instead of giving up/raging/blaming each other. People are so quick to give up and squadleave or blame stacking. And i think Twd looks as good as ever to get players together and improve in team work as a new squad/core of players. Now basing is another story... Just trying to help out and motivate people who feel left out.
.

Grasps you have yourself, Paky- a vet well rounded wb, Biet- highly underrated great teamer, Golden duck- also a vet that has the potential to go off, Pineapple Express- great aim, imo up an coming, Matrix- another guy with good aim, has the potential to be a good team mate. Theres 6 active guys right there, none of those guys suck, your teaming just needs work. Then you have Burnt, Engi, Lews, Welt, and Let on your roster all vet guys. If you can convince just 2 of them to get active and play for wolf you look pretty solid, Would just have to find a good teaming strategy.

[Turban]

How do you think to make another competitive twlj squad? Out of my mind the only worthy javs to be competitive is commodo.
warbird could be the most competitive league yea. And i dont expect 8 equally squads. But whats wrong with having 3 'top' players and 2 'upcoming' players. And no i dont consider racka or kado as an upcoming player. If i look how i improved the seasons playing with envy and dice, just like kado.. That just happened cuz of playing with better player. Was i stuck on the dynasty, spark kinda squads i would still be this 6-7 star. Someone like morph could get a chance for example. Or mythril/geio like you are doing. Jav isnt just as high leveled as wb is in my eyes, so a line is really fast stacked when you have 3-4 top javs. Yes, i know thunders jav line has 5.

and dont worry about me man. I already said on envy chat that i would only twl with the 'old' core. But thats not gonna happen. I am just looking behind this twl season. Because arent you worried that everyone you got back this twdt season you lose again?

Looking at javelin situation we have ...

Thunder with Ease, Zidane, Best, Steadman, Tiny, Kado, Kira_Yamato, and Hellkite as potential starters. It's good depth, many of them can play multiple leagues. Definite favorites as of right now, but many can still give a fair challenge. They could lose a player and still be hot favorites.
Haunt has Amnesti, Rampage, Kim, Singer and some decent players that can fill for the last spot. Many of these have played TWLJ at a final level and performed well. They could use one more solid player push them into a very good position.
ExanimuM has Aprix, Skilder, and Slaughter, but would need maybe two decent javelins still to be more competitive unless I am missing someone.
Rage has Dreamwin, Turban, Rough, Mythril, Racka, and Geio. It's a decent balance, but could use another solid javelin as backup.
Sweet has Morph, Okyo, Paradise, Riverside, and some others who are maybe not respected as javelins but can pack a punch when active enough. One or two extra recruits would make them very good in the league.
Spastic has Commodo, JAMAL, Mean Gene as a decent three man core. Few up-and-coming players who have performed well like Undercut, but should still recruit one solid player at least.

Free agents include players such as Maketso, EvilDeed, Children, Havok, Cape, Trasher, Zizzo, Skatarius, Shaun, or even yourself could easily fit into these squad. There are also a lot of returning players and undiscovered talents too. Monster is likely going to pick up some players to compete in two leagues, and they already have Vys and Iron Survivor both who have done really well in past TWLJ seasons.

It is true that the difference between a top 10 javelin and top 50 javelin is huge, but the skill difference can be made up with good teaming and synergy. See Boss as an example, they went all the way to TWLJ finals with players like Scarce, B.Rabbit, Toxie, Locket, Statis, Lorko, and Thrill. It was a huge upset, but they played well and made it that far and almost won it all. Here is the final match of the series in TWLJ season 13 and the other match was 50-47 to Thunder which was also very close but the score data is corrupt. This could still happen on this very day, but people have slowly started developing a defeatist attitude instead of trying to improve and prove that they are good.

http://twl.trenchwars.org/?x=showmatch&match=421

TWLD on the other hand looks much better with several great teams already. Much more balanced ship and league.

[Flew]

Like I said before ... "Excuse me." This is going as intended, right on my bad. Good for you cats, have fun! Maybe the 20 or so players who play this TWL can pool some cash so the winning teams can afford to meet up in person to suck each other off while taking selfies next to their pixel medals. Just an idea.

Anywho. Yea yea cool but you guys may as well change the schedule now though. Just play TWL in 1 day. 3-4 squads will be playing, how many weeks can you stretch that out? I also sincerely hope for you guys that care so much about this TWL your S22 medal next to your name gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment; playing vs. 1-2 squads to get it while riding with the best. I take back everything I've ever said about S21 at this point.

Had I known TWL would be so pitiful I'd not of recommended bringing it back. Even if I was on Rage or Monster right now, I'd still feel the same way, so before you try to turn this back on me like already has been done, that I made this post because I am some scrubby crybaby nub who got left behind think again. I just thought the goal this time around was to get more talent spread out to get more squads in the chase and to have more games, more hype, more activity, more people playing. Instead, this is just a giant elitist circle jerk and ironically the people running it are part of the circle.

Lucky for me I just invested stock in KY lubricants because it's jumpin! There is not enough towels to soak up the jizz from this years TWL,.Oh wait nevermind, there is..who am I kidding.. just needed 1 but count me out from being the guy to wipe it up, would imagine Geio to be your boy though.

Most of the zone could and should just log off now and wait for the upcoming TWDT at this point, literally no point to play unless you want to be cannon fodder and pad some k/d's for the elite 4..

Lol. Grasps man. I played in TWL for Syne (WOLF) for like 8 seasons straight and was arguably one of their top 2 players. I had the choice to join a better squad and be a sub or bench player or be a starter on Syne. You're in a position where you can be a starter on a mediocre team and prove to the world you're not a scrub, why not embrace that underdog role. Why not just try your best to carry a mediocre team to playoffs. You might just be able to shock the TW community. TWL isn't the place for parity. It's the place for the best of the best to play amongst each other for a championship (GSW, OKC, MIL, TOR), mediocre teams to upset the stacked teams (PHI, DEN, BOS, IND), and for the underdog teams to give it their best maybe win a game or two (BKL, DET, UTA, ORL). Teams with championship aspirations, make championship roster moves. In a game with a competitive league, stacking will happen. Complaining about it just shows you have zero confidence in your abilities. Man up, get better and carry your team.

[Falconeer]

Looking at javelin situation we have ...

Thunder with Ease, Zidane, Best, Steadman, Tiny, Kado, Kira_Yamato, and Hellkite as potential starters. It's good depth, many of them can play multiple leagues. Definite favorites as of right now, but many can still give a fair challenge. They could lose a player and still be hot favorites.
Haunt has Amnesti, Rampage, Kim, Singer and some decent players that can fill for the last spot. Many of these have played TWLJ at a final level and performed well. They could use one more solid player push them into a very good position.
ExanimuM has Aprix, Skilder, and Slaughter, but would need maybe two decent javelins still to be more competitive unless I am missing someone.
Rage has Dreamwin, Turban, Rough, Mythril, Racka, and Geio. It's a decent balance, but could use another solid javelin as backup.
Sweet has Morph, Okyo, Paradise, Riverside, and some others who are maybe not respected as javelins but can pack a punch when active enough. One or two extra recruits would make them very good in the league.
Spastic has Commodo, JAMAL, Mean Gene as a decent three man core. Few up-and-coming players who have performed well like Undercut, but should still recruit one solid player at least.

Free agents include players such as Maketso, EvilDeed, Children, Havok, Cape, Trasher, Zizzo, Skatarius, Shaun, or even yourself could easily fit into these squad. There are also a lot of returning players and undiscovered talents too. Monster is likely going to pick up some players to compete in two leagues, and they already have Vys and Iron Survivor both who have done really well in past TWLJ seasons.

It is true that the difference between a top 10 javelin and top 50 javelin is huge, but the skill difference can be made up with good teaming and synergy. See Boss as an example, they went all the way to TWLJ finals with players like Scarce, B.Rabbit, Toxie, Locket, Statis, Lorko, and Thrill. It was a huge upset, but they played well and made it that far and almost won it all. Here is the final match of the series in TWLJ season 13 and the other match was 50-47 to Thunder which was also very close but the score data is corrupt. This could still happen on this very day, but people have slowly started developing a defeatist attitude instead of trying to improve and prove that they are good.

http://twl.trenchwars.org/?x=showmatch&match=421

TWLD on the other hand looks much better with several great teams already. Much more balanced ship and league.

Why is it an "upset" when players not expected to win do well and make it far? This whole mentality is fucked. I'd be patting those guys on the back and saying good job, not calling that an "upset" at all.

The origin of the term is thought to have derived from one of the biggest upsets in horse racing history. ... It was at Saratoga, in 1919, that the word ?upset? entered the American sports lexicon. That's when a horse named Upset beat the mighty Man o' War. It was the original Big Red's only defeat.May 10, 2011

My opinion is to let these guys stack and stop making squads, I wouldn't even complain I would just let them do what they want. They will shape up on their own after a year or two of the same four squads and borefest. I've seen the same situations play out in other zones, it always leads to a zone death with an Ogron type character saying "I defeated the game, and now it's boring and I don't need to play anymore, let it die". The amount of self-delusion is Manco level. It takes things dying sometimes for people to stop acting like selfish dick-faces. =)

The skill cap should be lower than 60 stars. Each squad should have 2 players at 10 star max. I would have capped skill way lower if I ran any league.

The problem with everyone on TW is they are living in 2002 still. I have people presenting arguments to me like it's 2002, and everyone should have to go through the same 5 hours practicing in a duel arena like they did as some right of passage. Are you epic level retarded? Because that's what you sound like if you are still saying this in 2019. Do you see any 12-14 year olds lining up to play our game? Are we dealing with a dying game, a stable game, or a booming game? Can you even answer that question? Holy shit get a reality check. People who still play are either amazing, or live in their moms attic like me. The amazing ones juggle family, jobs, and being an adult, the retards like me might as well still be 14, BUT that doesn't mean it's still 2002, sigh for fucks sake.

No one has time to "get good" and after 20 years. And if they aren't better than average by now? chances are they won't be, either due to lack of time, or commitment, and that commitment isn't coming back at fucking 35 years old.

We're not all Ogron living in the ?go elim arena. He's one of a kind at 28?

With that said there is some merit to "fake it to make it" if you think small it wont necessarily help the game grow. We don't want to treat the zone like a hospice. But without an injection of new players, you need to take steps to include who you do have, and make up for the short falls of that. If league has to become a second job to even do moderately well then people won't sign up for it. Plain and simple.

[Flew]

Why is it an "upset" when players not expected to win do well and make it far? This whole mentality is fucked. I'd be patting those guys on the back and saying good job, not calling that an "upset" at all.



My opinion is to let these guys stack and stop making squads, I wouldn't even complain I would just let them do what they want. They will shape up on their own after a year or two of the same four squads and borefest. I've seen the same situations play out in other zones, it always leads to a zone death with an Ogron type character saying "I defeated the game, and now it's boring and I don't need to play anymore, let it die". The amount of self-delusion is Manco level. It takes things dying sometimes for people to stop acting like selfish dick-faces. =)

The skill cap should be lower than 60 stars. Each squad should have 2 players at 10 star max. I would have capped skill way lower if I ran any league.

The problem with everyone on TW is they are living in 2002 still. I have people presenting arguments to me like it's 2002, and everyone should have to go through the same 5 hours practicing in a duel arena like they did as some right of passage. Are you epic level retarded? Because that's what you sound like if you are still saying this in 2019. Do you see any 12-14 year olds lining up to play our game? Are we dealing with a dying game, a stable game, or a booming game? Can you even answer that question? Holy shit get a reality check. People who still play are either amazing, or live in their moms attic like me. The amazing ones juggle family, jobs, and being an adult, the retards like me might as well still be 14, BUT that doesn't mean it's still 2002, sigh for fucks sake.

No one has time to "get good" and after 20 years. And if they aren't better than average by now? chances are they won't be, either due to lack of time, or commitment, and that commitment isn't coming back at fucking 35 years old.

We're not all Ogron living in the ?go elim arena. He's one of a kind at 28?

With that said there is some merit to "fake it to make it" if you think small it wont necessarily help the game grow. We don't want to treat the zone like a hospice. But without an injection of new players, you need to take steps to include who you do have, and make up for the short falls of that. If league has to become a second job to even do moderately well then people won't sign up for it. Plain and simple.

Who's fault is it that you couldn't get good? So because you didn't get good, people have to establish some parity in the league so that this helps you in some weird way? Lets say we even out the playing field and spread the good players around, you'd still be riding bench and taking notes. Your arguments are dumb and you're a non factor in whatever zone you play.

I'm a wb and I'm definitely not a good one when it comes to aim. My aim is probably well below average. My flying and dodging ability is pretty high level. My awareness and radar reading ability is above average. I had to adjust my play style to play competitively with the best players in the league. I can list a bunch of players like myself who aren't elite, but made adjustments to shorten the gap between the elite and themselves. You can do it too. I'll list a few guys in my opinion who aren't in the 'elite' status but have developed their game to stand their ground vs the 'elite'.

Paky Dude, Wirah, Nowon, Not U (just who quickly came to mind). These guys aren't elite by any means, but all of them can hold their own against most teams/players.

You just need to stop bitching about things out of your control and start worrying about the shit you can control. If you don't have time to get good, well that's on you. If you're too stupid to adjust your game to be able to stand your ground against the good players, well that's also on you. If you wanna keep writing posts about how TWL is unfair and how these 4 OP squads make the league boring, well fuck, you can try playing in T3 The Gauntlet or something.

[yoast]

I'm going to make one more squad, i just got back, if you're interested in joining - message me in game! <harder

[Falconeer]

Who's fault is it that you couldn't get good? So because you didn't get good, people have to establish some parity in the league so that this helps you in some weird way? Lets say we even out the playing field and spread the good players around, you'd still be riding bench and taking notes. Your arguments are dumb and you're a non factor in whatever zone you play.

I'm a wb and I'm definitely not a good one when it comes to aim. My aim is probably well below average. My flying and dodging ability is pretty high level. My awareness and radar reading ability is above average. I had to adjust my play style to play competitively with the best players in the league. I can list a bunch of players like myself who aren't elite, but made adjustments to shorten the gap between the elite and themselves. You can do it too. I'll list a few guys in my opinion who aren't in the 'elite' status but have developed their game to stand their ground vs the 'elite'.

Paky Dude, Wirah, Nowon, Not U (just who quickly came to mind). These guys aren't elite by any means, but all of them can hold their own against most teams/players.

You just need to stop bitching about things out of your control and start worrying about the shit you can control. If you don't have time to get good, well that's on you. If you're too stupid to adjust your game to be able to stand your ground against the good players, well that's also on you. If you wanna keep writing posts about how TWL is unfair and how these 4 OP squads make the league boring, well fuck, you can try playing in T3 The Gauntlet or something.

It's not about me... like what I think of my skill, or what you think, or what my skill actually is, none of that really matters. I can compete just fine, I have 20 hours a day, which very few people have at our age. Not to mention this is a team sport, if you're average then you can hold your own consistently enough so individual skill doesn't necessarily come into it. Someone can be a great player it doesn't guarantee they will form an all star team when all the all star players have allegiances with other captains. The real issue is what the current reality of the game is...

You guys can stack squads with the best players but you're basically competing in the same league each year with minor differences and the same four squads competing (reusing and recycling the same players between 4 captains/squads). Same shit, different squad name. I hear people complain over and over and over again how their zone got boring, this is one of the reasons why. Unwillingness to expand your horizons or take on newer players. No real challenging yourselves with hard tasks, just using the same formula for success over and over again which relies on the same group of players. Unwillingness of the captains to talk to each other respectfully and balance the teams out between how many skilled players they have and don't.

The worst of it is the players themselves, see at least in hockey zone when we brought a new squad there... Judge, Boogie, and Nubby were kind enough to lend their time and talent to help out. You don't get many players like that in trench wars who are top tier players. Where are the 10* players from thunder, sweet, rage, and other top squads lining up to help the new squad of the seasons? Not even 1 thoughtful, concerned guy exists that wants to lend their expertise.

Where is the 10* player being recruited by thunder, rage etc, saying sorry I can't join, I'm helping a new team this season.

How many times does one need to win a season utterly destroying the other team before it becomes boring and meaningless to win that way? The gaps between teams are too big, turban has said this multiple times.

I see people here telling *other* people to make a squad and make a bunch of average to new players into a winning team. How about you do it? Ease? Mythril? any other captains? with your 15 years captaining experience. Why don't you make a squad not relying on your core players ( who join every season etc.) In fact I challenge you to smurf, make a new name, unknown, don't spill a word of it, and try and make a winning team, you can't say "hey we were friends 15 years join my squad" to anyone. It's a lot more difficult than you think.

I already know Mythrils response. I don't have time for that much work. Interesting, so being a good player in our 30s, and making a good team out of average players, BOTH require time. Something most of us only had ample amounts of when we were all 14. All the all-star picks are gone, in the top four squads already, and wouldn't want to join a new captains 'noob' team even if you asked them, unless maybe you were an all star player yourself. It's cyclical and semi-stupid, and top 10* players aren't all captains, because if they were this would become less of an issue at least, you would then be recycling players between 6 squads or 8 squads.

Human nature is retarded. I've had 10* players tell me they wont join unless there are good players on the team. Do you not see how dumb that is? Especially when I hear that from 5 good players. I'm like holy shit if you all joined it would be a good team. But everyone is afraid of the risk, to take that first step. On the activity spectrum (back in 2008) I've had people quit because the squad was inactive.... by 1 month I had 30 people quit. Does no one see how retarded people can be? If every single person had just a bit more patience/staying power, it would have already been a squad of 30 by that point. Funny enough this activity thing affects why zones die and aren't active either. These are some examples of how people can't see the bigger picture. And your league structure is another example of the same fallacy in human thinking. For a game to be competitive and fun it doesn't need all the best players, it just needs a good distribution of players of different skills across the whole league. Otherwise some people are having fun while others aren't and some are bored.

Anyway, I didn't make any threads here, the way I handle this is letting zones die out, and coming in and picking up the pieces after when people wise-up. You can't convince people to think differently who are delusional treating this game leagues like it's 2002-2006 still, and who aren't open to change.

Flew you are from HZ, you should know HZ has a sense of community that at least minimally looks out for the overall health of the game. Because people are in touch with how dire shit is there. Here people are in touch with the next time they get to say 'ez' to someone and trash talk them.

Think about real sports. Real sports will die if they don't keep scouting and getting children interested in those sports. This is already a problem in baseball, and maybe football in the future. The goal of leagues is to find the best players and teams... do you know with no new players, you guys have essentially done that already 10x over? The old system is a great meritocracy in a healthy game or sport that has interest and new players each year (as well as time and money). But apply the situation in subspace to any sport, hockey, football, soccer? And it falls apart quickly. Imagine if Hockey players were all 40 years old for fucks sake. Would you make the same arguments you are making here? The physicality of it doesn't matter, people are in different stages in their lives at different ages, with different things going on. I'm not even advocating for anything specific here, just saying there is a problem and people need to wake up and recognize that it IT IS a problem.

[Flew]

It's not about me... like what I think of my skill, or what you think, or what my skill actually is, none of that really matters. I can compete just fine, I have 20 hours a day, which very few people have at our age. Not to mention this is a team sport, if you're average then you can hold your own consistently enough so individual skill doesn't necessarily come into it. Someone can be a great player it doesn't guarantee they will form an all star team when all the all star players have allegiances with other captains. The real issue is what the current reality of the game is...

You guys can stack squads with the best players but you're basically competing in the same league each year with minor differences and the same four squads competing (reusing and recycling the same players between 4 captains/squads). Same shit, different squad name. I hear people complain over and over and over again how their zone got boring, this is one of the reasons why. Unwillingness to expand your horizons or take on newer players. No real challenging yourselves with hard tasks, just using the same formula for success over and over again which relies on the same group of players. Unwillingness of the captains to talk to each other respectfully and balance the teams out between how many skilled players they have and don't.

The worst of it is the players themselves, see at least in hockey zone when we brought a new squad there... Judge, Boogie, and Nubby were kind enough to lend their time and talent to help out. You don't get many players like that in trench wars who are top tier players. Where are the 10* players from thunder, sweet, rage, and other top squads lining up to help the new squad of the seasons? Not even 1 thoughtful, concerned guy exists that wants to lend their expertise.

Where is the 10* player being recruited by thunder, rage etc, saying sorry I can't join, I'm helping a new team this season.

How many times does one need to win a season utterly destroying the other team before it becomes boring and meaningless to win that way? The gaps between teams are too big, turban has said this multiple times.

I see people here telling *other* people to make a squad and make a bunch of average to new players into a winning team. How about you do it? Ease? Mythril? any other captains? with your 15 years captaining experience. Why don't you make a squad not relying on your core players ( who join every season etc.) In fact I challenge you to smurf, make a new name, unknown, don't spill a word of it, and try and make a winning team, you can't say "hey we were friends 15 years join my squad" to anyone. It's a lot more difficult than you think.

I already know Mythrils response. I don't have time for that much work. Interesting, so being a good player in our 30s, and making a good team out of average players, BOTH require time. Something most of us only had ample amounts of when we were all 14. All the all-star picks are gone, in the top four squads already, and wouldn't want to join a new captains 'noob' team even if you asked them, unless maybe you were an all star player yourself. It's cyclical and semi-stupid, and top 10* players aren't all captains, because if they were this would become less of an issue at least, you would then be recycling players between 6 squads or 8 squads.

Human nature is retarded. I've had 10* players tell me they wont join unless there are good players on the team. Do you not see how dumb that is? Especially when I hear that from 5 good players. I'm like holy shit if you all joined it would be a good team. But everyone is afraid of the risk, to take that first step. On the activity spectrum (back in 2008) I've had people quit because the squad was inactive.... by 1 month I had 30 people quit. Does no one see how retarded people can be? If every single person had just a bit more patience/staying power, it would have already been a squad of 30 by that point. Funny enough this activity thing affects why zones die and aren't active either. These are some examples of how people can't see the bigger picture. And your league structure is another example of the same fallacy in human thinking. For a game to be competitive and fun it doesn't need all the best players, it just needs a good distribution of players of different skills across the whole league. Otherwise some people are having fun while others aren't and some are bored.

Anyway, I didn't make any threads here, the way I handle this is letting zones die out, and coming in and picking up the pieces after when people wise-up. You can't convince people to think differently who are delusional treating this game leagues like it's 2002-2006 still, and who aren't open to change.

Flew you are from HZ, you should know HZ has a sense of community that at least minimally looks out for the overall health of the game. Because people are in touch with how dire shit is there. Here people are in touch with the next time they get to say 'ez' to someone and trash talk them.

Think about real sports. Real sports will die if they don't keep scouting and getting children interested in those sports. This is already a problem in baseball, and maybe football in the future. The goal of leagues is to find the best players and teams... do you know with no new players, you guys have essentially done that already 10x over? The old system is a great meritocracy in a healthy game or sport that has interest and new players each year (as well as time and money). But apply the situation in subspace to any sport, hockey, football, soccer? And it falls apart quickly. Imagine if Hockey players were all 40 years old for fucks sake. Would you make the same arguments you are making here? The physicality of it doesn't matter, people are in different stages in their lives at different ages, with different things going on. I'm not even advocating for anything specific here, just saying there is a problem and people need to wake up and recognize that it IT IS a problem.

I?m not reading some newbie who lives in his mom?s basement at 40 yrs old?s 20 paragraph essay. Most of us are friends and were bad together and got better together, we like flying together. STFU ty

[Jessup]

I'm torn on this stacking. I can't fault anyone because as kent said this is about getting best line you can together and also a free choice league. It is disappointing though that in that free choice the same people are doing the same stacking. I guess it can't be avoided. I just wish a few of these peeps would had gone out on their own or say if pairs or in trios. I guess thats just twl though and human nature. I do think it can hurt the zone in ways, but it also used to be what made people get better. There is a possible squad or 2 to be formed that could give them a fighting chance too. Exanimum is building for example, Wolf looks good. Sweet could easily win. Lots of possibilities still.