We have a problem folks.

[Zeebu]

twd and twdt are meant to be the inclusive leagues. on top of that twdt is meant to be as balanced as possible. twl is not meant to be all inclusive or balanced. twl isnt meant to be the league where you get better, youre already supposed to be good once youre there. it could easily be argued that the amount of active people cant effectively support a good twl, i can understand that reasoning just fine. the problem isnt stacking on twl teams, the problem is there arent enough people to support multiple good teams any longer. taking what is left and trying to create 8 'equal' or 'balanced' teams to compete in twl is probably one of the stupidest ideas that consistently gets floated around on the forums.

it all boils down to game population, it isnt what it used to be. you can argue that twl is no longer as good as it once was, and that is fine. changing twl to match the population though isnt a good option. twl is about the best 2d spaceship pilots competing, dont mess with that. the fragile population we have left is mostly buoyed by the vets that have played for a long time and theyre the ones you accuse of 'stacking.' its not some social responsibility to make a competitive league here. once again, that isnt what twl is about. i think most would agree that winning the title isnt as prestigious as it once was when we had 10+ squads in each league with many being competitive.

newer/less good players are at a disadvantage with regards to twl. its understood that youre not going to make an impact on a high level team and joining a team that you can start for will probably just net some losses. that isnt a big deal in itself, its just the way of it. unfortunately, the fact there are less people makes it far more difficult to ascend to the ranks of being 'good' and breaking into the starting lines of 'good' squads.

[Zeebu]

also i would have to agree that the squads look to be more balanced than theyve been in years past.

[afghan]

I think its also important to recognize there is still a lot of movement day to day with roster changes. Theres likely to be some changes that make squads a little better or a little worse to ?even? things out.

[mean gene]

I don't think it's about being a snowflake, I made plenty of squads in tough leagues. My squads never won because I didn't grab players from a pool of known veterans. Instead I grabbed the overlooked, neglected, discarded players. Then my squads and me were "trolled" and "attacked" for being easy. Next year I made a new squad. If anything this is the opposite of being a snowflake. That is grit and helping the community in the face of adversity and challenging odds. Though to be fair some guys pixel text online is hardly adversity for me. Notice I'm not the one ignoring people and raging at them for having opinions/typing. Though I do respond unfiltered sometimes.

I don't think people want titles, and those who do, don't want them on a silver platter. You bring up the NFL, but the NFL isn't struggling with 30-40 year old players. In most sports 30 is already past your prime, people start families and don't have as much time as they used to. We are also a game not getting new players, imagine if the NFL didn't get new players, and zero kids from the next generation were interested in football? In baseball we already have some teams who lose year after year, while one team keeps winning because they have 1) more time 2) more money 3) greater access to the veterans.

You don't say fuck the systemic issues, and just work hard. If that's how life was, you would probably revolt against the government, because some people would be working harder than others. You are all blind to how hard someone else has to work compared to you. And that's the problem. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes then come and talk.

So there are two solutions to stacking. 1) fix the game and get new players 2) the pro players and captains step up and realize in a dying game they can help newer squads.

Seems like there is resistance to 2, and having a "pro elite league" only helps to ensure 1 doesn't happen while keeping the veteran core players happy.

Not one person here said they would help out new players, new squads, or stop joining thunder/rage and other top squads year after year (break the mould) to try a new squad or meet new people/make new friends. Not one. And that's the problem. No one wants to risk or step up to help. Instead it's SNOWFLAKE, EZ, GIT GUD SON. GG. Just a bunch of people who want to troll and elevate themselves for being good in a game.

I'm literally asking you guys after 5 medals, and titles, and wins, help some new up-and-coming squad out. That's all i'm saying here.

ok.. i never post or care to but this is just too silly now... i saw this post the other day and brushed it off but clearly its got a lot of attention.

its 2019 subspace.. population is low.. its hard to get into this game this late and play at the higher level. when i first started i was always denied entry into go base and the only times i got to play in a bd was with public assassin or rucci trying to train me, but even then the captains back then were not excited on my playing (this is 2005). i understand where you come from with people talking down to your new player/lower tier squad, it doesn't make sense at all.. pretty sad actually that people still do it.

you say to fix the game, that would be the best option for obvious reasons but that's not going to happen.
you say the pro players and capts need to step up to help the newer squads. as a community, for a few years during the major decline, has been trying to assist newer squads. there were a handful of new player squads that were formed by some vets and tried to make it work out but when a league like twl came around, they wanted to play for the team that will be competitive. I used to help out with these new players squads but there is only so much most of the experienced vets can do without ruining their motivation to continue playing.

i used to voice my opinion a lot about actual squad stacking years ago when it was actually an issue during the major decline. the obvious squads were always with 2-3 full twl lines, regardless of skill but still twl calibur lines. now tho, its different. yes people still care about this otherwise there wouldn't be any players in the zone, but most of the vets just wanna log in and play quality games, regardless of win/loss. one thing i never understood back when stacking was an issue is why the active players on the stacked squads would rather bench and obtain this ring than get playing time on a squad with less chance of winning and go for gold.

just looking at thunders squad list, they have only 16 players and yes they are all strong players but this isn't really the stacking like it used to be. you suggest people to leave their squad to even the playing field and play with less experienced/skilled players to create more teams, that's what twdt is for (which is another story).. you can argue that you can make multiple line ups for dd/jd for certain squads but unless you are certain these 5 people going to show up every weekend for the squad you would potentially make from these "stacked" squads, that's a risk that most if not all captains won't take..

this " "pro elite league" " is mainly the reason why most people want to play this game and for most of the older names to come back.

I don't want to say we shouldn't have to baby the new players but the climb is real and most of us had to do it. if you are a squad captain with newer players/less experienced players, you need to find a new way to get better and learn, otherwise there wont be any real underdog teams like potenza or boss was years ago.

i just joined violence and were building a 3 league squad to create more competition. there are multiple squads that were just created not too long ago to bring more action to the dueling portion of twl, which is fantastic. the more squads that are created for these smaller line up leagues, the more play time people will have. so if you wanna create a squad with only 5 people, no ones stopping you but dont suggest vets to leave squads to make it easier for newer players in the league we care about the most, that doesn't make it right.

edit: i didn't really read this whole thread and don't really want to, but i'm just responding to this and a few other messages i saw/read.

[Rab]

twd and twdt are meant to be the inclusive leagues. twl is not meant to be all inclusive or balanced.

twl has impacted twd rosters so twd is not functioning as an inclusive league.

[Falconeer]

ok.. i never post or care to but this is just too silly now... i saw this post the other day and brushed it off but clearly its got a lot of attention.

its 2019 subspace.. population is low.. its hard to get into this game this late and play at the higher level. when i first started i was always denied entry into go base and the only times i got to play in a bd was with public assassin or rucci trying to train me, but even then the captains back then were not excited on my playing (this is 2005). i understand where you come from with people talking down to your new player/lower tier squad, it doesn't make sense at all.. pretty sad actually that people still do it.

you say to fix the game, that would be the best option for obvious reasons but that's not going to happen.
you say the pro players and capts need to step up to help the newer squads. as a community, for a few years during the major decline, has been trying to assist newer squads. there were a handful of new player squads that were formed by some vets and tried to make it work out but when a league like twl came around, they wanted to play for the team that will be competitive. I used to help out with these new players squads but there is only so much most of the experienced vets can do without ruining their motivation to continue playing.

i used to voice my opinion a lot about actual squad stacking years ago when it was actually an issue during the major decline. the obvious squads were always with 2-3 full twl lines, regardless of skill but still twl calibur lines. now tho, its different. yes people still care about this otherwise there wouldn't be any players in the zone, but most of the vets just wanna log in and play quality games, regardless of win/loss. one thing i never understood back when stacking was an issue is why the active players on the stacked squads would rather bench and obtain this ring than get playing time on a squad with less chance of winning and go for gold.

just looking at thunders squad list, they have only 16 players and yes they are all strong players but this isn't really the stacking like it used to be. you suggest people to leave their squad to even the playing field and play with less experienced/skilled players to create more teams, that's what twdt is for (which is another story).. you can argue that you can make multiple line ups for dd/jd for certain squads but unless you are certain these 5 people going to show up every weekend for the squad you would potentially make from these "stacked" squads, that's a risk that most if not all captains won't take..

this " "pro elite league" " is mainly the reason why most people want to play this game and for most of the older names to come back.

I don't want to say we shouldn't have to baby the new players but the climb is real and most of us had to do it. if you are a squad captain with newer players/less experienced players, you need to find a new way to get better and learn, otherwise there wont be any real underdog teams like potenza or boss was years ago.

i just joined violence and were building a 3 league squad to create more competition. there are multiple squads that were just created not too long ago to bring more action to the dueling portion of twl, which is fantastic. the more squads that are created for these smaller line up leagues, the more play time people will have. so if you wanna create a squad with only 5 people, no ones stopping you but dont suggest vets to leave squads to make it easier for newer players in the league we care about the most, that doesn't make it right.

edit: i didn't really read this whole thread and don't really want to, but i'm just responding to this and a few other messages i saw/read.

Well I'll acknowledge your point and defer to you that stacking was probably worse in the past. I have no reason to doubt your word on that. Fact is I never played trench wars or inspected the league lineups being made 5 or 10 years ago because I was in DSB.

I don't actually agree that stacking in TW is insanely bad, nowhere have I even mentioned it is. I approached this from a person who has experience making squads in different leagues where stacking was a problem; where it was a danger to league, to the long term interests of vets/pros, and noobs alike, and to the zone. So I will say stacking is not bad in TW but it's not gone either, and I would say squads still lean more toward stacking. As many have pointed out 4 squads that could win the championship is actually a good number out of 8 squads. It's not as if it's 2 squads or 1 squad that we can predict will win right from the get-go. But the problem I am referring to is more about the gap between the top squads and the rest of the squads. The gap is too big which tells me people are more often deciding to play with their friends for a third year? fifth year? tenth year? or more often deciding to stick with the same good players they have always played with... rather than taking more risks at this point in time in the game, in 2019.

You guys have every right to play with your friends, and stick with the same players for an easier league. But if you have some inclination to help new squads, to meet or play with different people, to contribute more to the zone than just talking about how pro you are, then the zone and the league would benefit from you sharing your skills with other teams. And besides don't you want more of a challenge by now? It would be nice to see people bragging in game how they revived the game instead of doing some self circle jerk about how great a player they are with the same 20 people, it's getting stale... it gets old, and the game continues to die.

Remember this is a very valid point I made earlier: Someone on a bad team for years, will likely end up practicing bad habits because they have no good examples near them of how to play well. Without pro players lending their skills to newer squads, the stacking problem will only get worse over time. You won't have new players to recruit. Sure people can learn to play on their own, but in a team game it requires a good team to learn faster. Unless you want to wait 10 years for 1 guy to get good so then you can grow the league? And remember we're all not 14 anymore, people don't have time like they used to, so you can't really bring arguments of "WELL WHEN I WAS A BOY" into it since it's a totally diff situation now... what are you? grandpa simpson? :P

The only response I can give is Stripes was making the squad Under City, and the squad died, about 15 players were recruited out of it by other teams, no one really stepped up to ensure there was another squad in at least one of the leagues. This is evidence that the dynamic in the game has issues. It's not easy to make a new squad, and people are far from supportive. To deny that creating and recruiting for squads successfully is largely about social position, influence, and image in the zone... is to deny reality basically. This is why I proposed people smurf with an unknown name and try to make a squad, it won't happen, the challenges are different, it's much harder... and no good players will sign up with you. So i'm not just saying it would be good for a competitive league and the zones health to sometimes lend your gaming skill to new squads but it would be good to lend something called social capital as well... when you join a new squad as a veteran or skilled player you legitimize them, people join because you have faith in it.

[Zeebu]

twl has impacted twd rosters so twd is not functioning as an inclusive league.

that is a fair statement. twd used to be much more pervasive and ran non stop even when twl and twl qualifying wasnt going on. i guess i was mostly pointing to that aspect of it. youre right, now it appears to be a place to qualify for twl and knock off a little rust.

[ogron]

That crazy bad sharking costs a twdtb title yea

agreed. people who rep 3x in two seconds, shout DOA constantly when they should be repping on attach, are constantly out of position, leave huge gaps, place bad mines, and can't hold cram to save their lives are a big reason why good players want to play TWL.

[Majorcrisis2]

agreed. people who rep 3x in two seconds, shout DOA constantly when they should be repping on attach, are constantly out of position, leave huge gaps, place bad mines, and can't hold cram to save their lives are a big reason why good players want to play TWL.

Accept a joke for once you tard.

[Exalt]

Falconeer

This is my personal opinion, but I would advise you to stop responding to this thread with the intention to provoke as you have almost no clue what you are talking about considering your general lack of knowledge regarding the history of our zone.

There are many new prospects being are cultivated every season by several teams, and some players end up performing far above expectations with their rapid growth spurts and will to improve. I personally have been on several underdog teams by choice, helping to train new players while giving them valuable insight to improve their play, and several teams and players seem to be doing it this season as well. This includes captaining squads and giving players a chance to improve. In my opinion we are at a rather healthy balance when looking at the competitive side of the game and that is one reason as to why our leagues have such good longevity and reputation. We do have our fair share of trolls who take every opportunity they get to spread false information or lash out provocative comments, and we also have players who are extremely toxic in-game who for some reason still expect to be treated with respect by other players.

You should not compare Trench Wars culture with any other zone. Our premier league is not meant to be all inclusive, and most of the training of players happen on a lower level such as private arenas, elimination, public leagues such as base, javduel, and wbduel, draft tournaments, and division matches. It is up to the players wanting to become competitive to take on the challenge and start improving rather than waiting for someone to blindly reach out their hand.

Contrary to the unpopular belief, there are no serious stacking issues this year as of right now. You are witnessing known trolls and disliked players crying for attention.

To quote the mission statement from our most prestigious league:

"Trench Wars Leagues is the premier competitive league in Trench Wars. It is designed for serious squads which are interested in competing against the best in the zone.

Participation is by invitation and is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can be revoked for any player or squad by the League Operators given sufficient reasoning."

Sorry to necro this thread, but I'm gonna weigh in here as another voice. I haven't played TWL competitively for like a decade now, but you all know I've been around to have a good opinion on the matter, so here's mine:

Turban, I think you're 100% wrong here. You're biased based on what squad you're on, but let's all show mutual respect by being honest with each other. TWL is NOT the same as it was back in the early 2000s, it's insanely less competitive than it ever was due to a lack of an active playerbase, and if any player from the early 2000s could see the future and saw you and others boast about TWL titles in its 2019 (or 2018, 2017, 2016, etc) state, they'd scoff and call it pathetic. Let's admit this as a fact first and foremost, because it's the basis on why there's an issue. Let's stop pretending TWL is some amazingly great league these days, because it's not.

Knowing that TWL is in fact not the TWL of old, can all of you finally stop and actually look around you objectively? Maybe you're unable to, because you haven't quit for years and years like many of us have, but many of the top players these days are just people who never really quit playing for any extended amount of time, while the rest of the playerbase did. In the most 'competitive' league from my estimation (twld), that's like 20 something players total. 20 players is basically a squad and a half based on your roster limits. Really, it's just two squads total, which is what's been shown for the past 5+ TWLs at least. Two 'stacked' squads with the most active 'good' players play for a meaningless title 10 years after the league mostly stopped being competitive. You mine as well make TWL just two squads playing one match, and voila, there's a new little ribbon on the twd page. If you look at TWLJ or TWLB, it's even worse. It's ridiculous that you and others cannot accept that this is the truth of it. I understand it's an ego thing for many, but cmon man. Look around. You were there when every TWL had at least 4 hyper-competitive squads, with maybe 2 or 3 mid-tier squads that could upset anyone they played, along with one or two up-and-coming squads full of guys who were still a year or two away from 'getting it'. These days, there are no up-and-comers, because nobody new players ss/continuum. These days, it's the same few players who always win, because they literally always stack specific players around them, mostly due to familiarity more than anything else. People like Rab (as an example) on these forums have stated they won't even play in TWL without a certain chance to win, which says everything really. That's the mentality people have had for God knows how long now, but it's an outdated and ridiculous mentality to keep hold of based on the objective state of the game, and it's actively hurt the game for many years now. Instead of wanting a challenge through real competition, you all want an easy victory and a fake little ribbon to say youre a TWL winner in 2019. It's really no better than all the players back in the day who joined the top squads to bench all season, letting better players win them those ribbons. It's exactly the same when all the top players play with each other with such a small active playerbase remaining.

There simply aren't enough active players these days to make stacked squads, so the fact that it still happens is actually a little pathetic. You all choose to make the game worse for a meaningless title nobody respects anymore, because you have some nostalgia factor built in from when we were teenagers about what a TWL title was supposed to mean. I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't mean what it once did. You are winning through 20 years of attrition, and it's killed the spirit of what the 'league' was supposed to be. I realize people love playing with familiar faces, but it's about time SOMEONE tries something new. To only use your squad's players, imagine if Racka joined Paladen, Mythril joined Spastic, etc. Imagine if Ease actually played against Thunder instead of with them/Sk8 for two decades. The game would be spiced up much more with that kind of talent spread, but nobody ever does it due to egos and not wanting to try harder than they otherwise would have to. It's a pure fact of life that playing with better players around you makes the game 1000x easier, and we all know this. That's why people do it, aside from the familiarity/friendship angle. The problem is that these cliques of players have kept a mentality that was required for success back in the early 2000s, but is no longer conducive to the game's health. TWL has always been what kept this game alive, yet TWL is a joke these days. As it stands, this game has done the exact same thing for 20 years now, slowly losing its playerbase and becoming a shell of its former self, and nothing new is ever tried by anyone. The players who should be setting examples for the game's health have always refused to leave their comfort zone, and it's ridiculous. Personally, with so little competition these days, I feel the entire title of TWL should be gone (or at least have an asterisk next to it), since it's actually insulting to the players who won back when the game was still alive, but since that will never happen due to egos, I think it's fair to say that people like you defending stacking in 2019 is simply cognitive bias and an inability to face reality. That's the simple truth of it.

Oh, and before you say anything, TWDT is not the same thing as what is being said here. TWDT is a joke that nobody takes seriously by its very nature. Nobody practices together in TWDT to form a cohesive unit, and with lineups being forced to change week in and week out, it's a jumbled mess. TWL still requires people to play together and create familiarity to win. Old squadies playing on the same stacked squads don't need to do much but log in once a week or so, because they've played together for at least a decade now, but the idea stands. TWL requires familiarity and teamwork. TWDT is a glorified version of wbduel. Don't compare the two by saying talent spread would be the same thing. No, it would not. That's just an excuse you guys make to try to legitimize the non-competitiveness of recent TWLs and as a way to easily shout down any dissenting opinions. Just stop. Look around and be objective for once, at least in a hypothetical way while discussing it in the forums. We all know that nothing will ever change in-game, so this whole thing is just speculation of what this game could be like if people weren't so single-minded and stuck in their ways, but I don't like to see people spread propoganda bullshit like 'TWL is soooo competitive and squad stacking isn't true' when it's so blatantly obvious every year. Squad stacking did happen back in the glory days too, but due to the huge playerbase, talent was forced to spread by its very nature. That's no longer the case, and it hasn't been for a very, very long time.


Edit: Another point I want to weigh in on, which Jerome mentioned. If there even are any new(er) players around these days trying to break into the top squads, they have near zero chance to do so, which is why I find it ridiculous that so many old vets are saying "earn it like I did!" like a bunch of trust fund baby boomers telling some poor person to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It was easy a hell to get good at this game back when we were new, because the population was huge, so there were games going on all the time. TWD coming around during 2002 meant anyone could make a squad and find a game at literally any time of the day, 24/7. Really, you'd be in a competition to get a game in one of the 4 twd arenas before some other squad stole it from you. Any random player could make a squad and find a game in 10 minutes flat. This is just TWD. If you looked at elim back then, it was literally always full of at least 15+ players every single game, always with at least a couple really good players at the time, along with all time greats. You could play just a SINGLE day of elim or TWD or even wbduel (when it was new) and get more playtime/practice in against decent competition back then than you can in a month of logging in everyday in 2019. That's a simple fact. Nobody plays anymore, and nobody gets good by playing one TWD game a day (assuming that even happens, which is unlikely).

Now, Clausehouse has trashed Jessup by saying elim doesn't matter and only TWD/TWL games are how anyone can learn, so lets look at the TWD page, 100 games is the top number of games played for TWDD, which is by far the most active league, with 3 squads reaching that on the ladder. In TWJD, only one squad reached 100, same for TWLB. TWLB is so bad that only 3 squads have more than 50 games played. Now, back in the early 2000s when most vets were still learning, 100 games was next to nothing. Most squads reached that in a week, and each ladder had 30+ squads on it with far more than that. Any random newb could make or join a squad and find as many games as they wanted to learn. New players could team up together and make something of themselves. That's exactly what Quicksand did in 2004/2005. We practically invented the '5 man squad rush' strategy at a time when TWL had never really seen it en-masse. Yes, some players rushed prior to that, but not as a whole squad. Heavy came around a year or two after that, and that's when Apok and co learned the same strategy. Sweet came around then as well, and they did their thing. Squads like that were considered newbs at the time, but players got together and practiced nonstop, because they had the ability to do so. It was easy to find games, and trying to 'git gud' as a team wasn't very difficult. 99% of all the 'top' players still playing trenchwars came from that era. You were all called newbs at one time, but you had an easy way to git gud through simple playtime. That playtime is few and far between these days. You're lucky to find pub with more than 4 people playing at any given time these days. Doesn't that tell you guys something? Have you forgotten what it was like when we were all new?

Oh, and as for veterans who come back after quitting for however long, I can only speak for myself here, but there's basically no chance of unrusting with the current activity level of the game. There's nobody to play against anymore. Playing once a week after quitting for years or a decade means it's practically impossible to get back to a decent level, because it requires practice time that isn't there to be had. That alone fucks the game's future up, because as each player gradually quits, none will come back and find it worth their time, since they will never have the chance to regain whatever skill they may have had in the past. The only good players these days are guys who never really quit, and so you've won through attrition. It's fine to be proud of your skill, but don't act elitist about it when so many great players quit already. You're ruling over a dead corpse at this point, and the attitude you guys STILL have about it after all these years means there's no way it will ever get better. The game faced a breaking point years ago in my opinion, but nobody wanted to take a step in the right direction and drop the pretenses due to their egos. I hope at least some of you stop with the bullshit ego act before the game is gone completely, since at this point, we're all old, grown ass adults. Many have wives and kids by now. Stop acting like children and try to be objective about the facts for once.

[Majorcrisis2]

I agree on most of it. Like the chances people get better or unrust are small. The people at the 'top' are the ones who never really quit for years. But twdt has gotten way more serious than it was in the days you were really active. Back then it sure was something like a troll league. Last few seasons it was the only thing that was competitive.

[ixt]

is there a place where u can like posts? cuz i think this exalt post most definitely deserves one XD

[Thrill]

Squads are obviously not stacked. Back when I originally played back in the day on Boss and stuff there was squad stacking... 5-10 years ago teams like thunder used to have giant 30+ rosters where most of the 30 people would have been a good or important player on other teams in the league and there were 20 losers who took the hit and decided to watch other people win while jerking off on the bench so they could be considered a part of 'the winning team'. That is squad stacking. This season teams like Thunder trimmed their fat in advance for TWL roster requirements when technically they could have stacked for TWD and left people out in the wind once TWL started. I'm not sure how much more you could ask of a team that was notorious for actual stacking back in the day and has obviously adapted to the times. With a 12 man dueling roster it's pretty hard to actually 'stack rosters'. I see at least 3-4 teams in LD and LJ who could plausibly win and at the very least will be pretty competitive in games with each other. That's nearly half of the league with this league size, seems pretty good to me.

[Exalt]

Squads are obviously not stacked. Back when I originally played back in the day on Boss and stuff there was squad stacking... 5-10 years ago teams like thunder used to have giant 30+ rosters where most of the 30 people would have been a good or important player on other teams in the league and there were 20 losers who took the hit and decided to watch other people win while jerking off on the bench so they could be considered a part of 'the winning team'. That is squad stacking. This season teams like Thunder trimmed their fat in advance for TWL roster requirements when technically they could have stacked for TWD and left people out in the wind once TWL started. I'm not sure how much more you could ask of a team that was notorious for actual stacking back in the day and has obviously adapted to the times. With a 12 man dueling roster it's pretty hard to actually 'stack rosters'. I see at least 3-4 teams in LD and LJ who could plausibly win and at the very least will be pretty competitive in games with each other. That's nearly half of the league with this league size, seems pretty good to me.

Your very statement about Thunder 'trimming the fat' proves my point. I think we are fundamentally all coming from very different places here. First off, Thunder and other squads 'trimming the fat' means a new squad might be formed, but it means a squad full of worse players. Only the 'best' thunder players are left remaining. That's not a loss for them at all unless those players fail to show up. Thunder didn't kick out its best players so they would have equal competition. You don't see Ease decide after 20 years of sk8/thunder to go help Paladen instead of trying to win another title with a roster full of the best active players left. You don't see Racka joining Spastic to improve them. You don't see Mythril joining Marksmin.

The definition of a stacked roster is what seems to be disagreed with here, because you all play semantics on something that's obvious to anyone with common sense. It's a bad argument that ignores the real issues. None of these 'top' players are playing with anyone but other top players. That's a simple fact. Nobody is letting Jessup or whoever join their squads either. Players like Jessup will forever remain a Paladen-only type player, because players like that are not in the already-defined top player clique. This isn't even mentioning the friendship factor, which precludes anyone on the outside from joining any potential 'top' squad by virtue of simply not having already been a squadmate of those captains for years. Imagine if TW actually got a new player (I know, unrealistic, but this is hypothetical) and that new player actually wasted their time long enough to 'git gud'. It won't matter, because they'll be stuck joining Paladen-type squads forever, facing off against the 'top' players in stacked (there's that word again) squads full of a roster that have played with each other for a decade now. Those top players never, ever try to play with anyone else besides those same few players.

Aside all of that, lets look at what competition means objectively by using the NBA greats as a standard. Micheal Jordan and Lebron James are widely regarded as the best (or at least top 5) basketball players of all time. Michael Jordan and all the players of his era have all publicly stated that none of them would have ever teamed up with the other top players in the league, because they craved competition. They wanted to play against the best, not with each other. Lebron James on the other hand, joined the Miami Heat, and he has widely been reviled for it ever since, because he teamed up to make a 'super' team. Both players won titles and are called great, but which player did so through competition, rather than trying to remove it?

To put it in another way, look at the 1992 Olympic Dream Team. The best of the best all played on the same team, and they humiliated their 'competition' in games that were so one-sided that it was ridiculous. The games mine as well not have even been played. They did this due to country, but imagine if an entire league were based on teams like that. Imagine if only one or two teams had all the best players, while every other team had all the crumbs left over who were cut from the best teams. Is that real competition? No, it isn't. When there's no parody in a league, that league sucks. it's not competitive at all. Real sports leagues are sometimes like this, but the less fortunate teams are at least able to draft top players the following year to hopefully change their fortunes. Imagine a league where there's no draft to balance things out and change everything. Imagine if the Michael Jordan Bulls never broke up, the players never got old, and if someone like Scottie Pippen decided to retire, the Bulls just added Lebron James to replace them. What do you think people would say about that league? That's the state of TWL.

The truth is that people want easy victories, and that's it. They don't want competition, and try as you might to use semantics on what stacking means, you can't change the facts. The 'best' players all join the same few squads together, rather than strike out on their own playing against each other. There's no competition whatsoever. The simple fact that there's 'more' competition in all of your minds this season (with maybe 100 TOTAL active players as it is remaining in this game) is a bi-product of roster limits, not due to people wanting to challenge themselves going against the 'best' (their current teammates) on their own volition. Don't get it twisted.

[Grasps]

I have a lot of regrets in life but they are shadowed by the regret of making this thread. At the time of posting it, we had 3 teams signed up (thunder, rage, monster) with paladen being a potential entry. I expressed my concern at the time because turban had made the TWL schedule, playing a series of games over the course of a month or so and the thought of it being 4 squads that do it was disheartening, something that could be done in a day rather than several weeks.

A lot of people misunderstood my position on the subject, assuming I was upset that I wasn't on one of the elite teams therefore I was out to disrupt them. Not at all the case at all. I was just looking at a problem I saw at that time and was trying to come up with a way to get more squads playing to make TWL worthy of our time. Fast forward to present day and we have nearly 3 times as many squads actively participating. Personally, I am quite happy on how TWL turned out and feel that everything worked out rather nice.

Exalt I don't feel like the squads are that stacked compared to years past. Thunder in particular did the zone a huge favor breaking their core up into 3 squads. Sweet and Marksman have some of the most amazing elites from old times, that if they were to unrust/become active can seriously disrupt TWL and give everyone a run for their money. TWL is the highest form of competition this game has to offer, there is no avoiding the best players seeking out the best to play with. I think that aspect is why TWL is so special and is something we need to fight to preserve, not to do away with entirely. Roster caps of 12 did a great job this TWL in spreading talent out. Compared to the last TWL, we have double the amount of competing squads actively fighting, I'd call that huge success in 2019.

Big thanks to everyone, every player who has stepped up to make this TWL a possibility and something worthwhile as many of us were sure that TWL was never to happen ever again.

-ixa