Tie Breaker solution-Continued

[Crazy Canockout]

Lay off Kim, he simply presented an argument, and you got offended, quite ironically, like the hypocrite you are. You have dug yourself into a hole, and you know you can't get out, because you've said all there is to say, and that being said, I predict your next post to be seemingly identitical to your previous posts. Furthermore,

"this is where you are wrong, though. you claim that in head to head, one game plays too big a role in deciding who gets into the playoffs and who doesnt. you say you want to take into account the whole season. well, gues what. that's what recs are for. whoops, we are both 6-4, ok. so now we compare our two teams. we played each other, and rapid won. no, we are not looking at how GV did vs other squads and how Rapid did vs other squads. It we have identical records, why should all that matter? With unequal schedules, that's just stupid. All that should matter is comparing our two squads."

First off, I have to admit that I am playing Devil's advocate here, because I personally like my chances with +/- in the future. I believe that you are wrong, due to the simple fact that your perception is somewhat limiting. You say that only records are used for calculating the "whole season", well you have to incorporate +/- as well, or else you would be changing the WHOLE system of TWL, and records in matches would be of no need. I doubt the Trenchers would want that.

[nemodot]

"your perception is somewhat limiting."

HOW? I could say the same thing for you. Your perception is somewhat limiting. wow look i own. fear my argument.

"You say that only records are used for calculating the "whole season", well you have to incorporate +/- as well, or else you would be changing the WHOLE system of TWL"

HOW? What IS the whole system of TWL? We play 10 weeks, we measure wins and losses. We then compare the teams with the same records. How hard is this really?

you say such broad things, but give no actual reasons why or how. Your arguments are very thin indeed.

"and records in matches would be of no need. I doubt the Trenchers would want that."

Do stats/records ever matter in any league? OMG Shaq has so many points! Look at his stats man! Who cares that they lost the game? He has so many points let's just give him the ring...what a great idea CC.

How many times have you heard an interview where a player says "I dont care how many points i get or how many points i give up, as long as we get the win". It's what it's all about. Winning. It's all about the W.

And in response to Randedl

"in the head to head system, a loss against a conference opponent is big enough, it doesn't make sense to make a regular season game, for all intents and purposes, an elimination game."

That's how it is dude. You either put up or shut up. Head to head puts your own fate in your own hands. You win, you get in. You lose, you go home. +/- is like "oh, we kicked their asses, but the other team played shitty squads and gets forfeit wins, so damn". If your team doesnt show a good line and you lose a big game Pirates and GV did against us, then that's your fault. Your fate was in your own hands, and you fucked up. If you look at it from rapid's perspective, we showed up big for the big games, we thought our fate was in our own hands, and we pulled through. Then we find out later that our efforts are all for naught because you got a couple forfeit wins.

Such paper thin arguments with no substance. I'm not even going to bother anymore. I'm pretty much done here, the TWL ops will read this thread and make the right decision.

[Randedl]

nemo, why do you keep using this season's examples in your argument. i thought we were talking about next season?

honestly, it doesn't matter if your squad beat my squad, and it doesn't matter if you are better than us. it also doesn't matter if the schedules were different. we didn't make the schedule, it wasn't made like so to give us an advantage, and we have not abused the system at all. according to the current rules and standings, we, at the present time, are 4th in the conference. that is a fact.

in regards to next season; as i said, wait until we get closer and things are more clear. everybody will have had time to reflect and your argument will be heard by far more people who care.

[Crazy Canockout]

Your perception - do you know what a perception is? - okay good, limiting means that you are leaving something out, in this case, the idea of +/- for complete and relevant examination of TWL and its efficiency - did you catch all that hotshot? Learn how to interpret things correctly, and you may not be so confused; what I meant by "changing the WHOLE system" is that why not keep it the way it is? It's clearly only unfair to Rapid, I bet my balls that any other squad wouldn't have brought this up if they were in your place. For all you know Pirates could be in your place next season, and we aren't complaining about it as much, so it must have something to do with Rapid, and their misfortune this season. Awe, tough luck eh Nemo!!! Also, exaggerating doesn't help the cause, saying that if shaq has alot of pnts he deserves a ring. Speak straight to me/us, don't try to look smart with an unoriginal sarcastic remark.

You're an idiot, nemo, I hope you realize it. You been calling everyone else idiots, maybe since you're dishing it out so often, you just COULD be the idiot, u imbecile.

[Miku19]

My suggestion is that next season would be organized with every squad playing eachother once and +/- as the tiebreaker. All these complications show up when people play random cross-conference matches.

[Violence]

cc u havent made 1 smart comment regarding the topic yet, all uve done is talk shit to me or nemo saying we are wrong without giving any evidence. If we are dumb then why dont you prove us wrong. Clearly it is unfair for teams to have different schedules and for some teams to play teams with a 5v4 advantage while other teams never do to go by +/-. Basically its like giving 1 team a 50 point lead over someone else. People always say twl is for the best players, and its where all the competition is, if thats the case then head to head is perfect because it will make sure the big players come to play every game because they know if ther is a tie at the end that ther fate is in their own hands. Games would be much more exciting and everyone would try alot harder. I listed 3 flaws about +/- and 1 flaw about head to head, and nobody has listed anymore flaws about head to head. You all know that head to head is better seing as NONE of you have backed up your arguements.

[Randedl]

i don't see the connection between having different schedules and using head to head as a tiebreaker. you would have the same problems imo.

i like tiebreakers where both teams have a chance. ie, records can be tied, plus minus can be tied, games against in conference opponents can be tied, etc etc etc.

on the other hand, head to head is just one game that somebody has to win, even if the two teams are equal. . .

maybe if you played 14 games, 2 against each conference opponent, and no cross-conference games?

[Crazy Canockout]

Violence you can't list flaws for your argument, because you simply won't think of them all, because you're biased, and so is everyone here, because they are arguing for their preference. I personally think head to head is a pain because teams are better off showing their best players every week, which just isn't possible. Teams with depth, which I think deserve more credit, can have higher +/- than squads with less depth, which is why I am for +/-.

[Bob (SRB)]

+/- might have been a good way to do it -->IF<-- you didn't have the following:

• with a forfeit win one teams +/- gains 50, that is completely messed up and nobody can argue against that
• certain squads get lucky and end up playing a squad with 3 people and their +/- soars
• One squad gets lucky and has an easier schedule than the other, therefor that squads +/- gets an unfair boost
• other things such as a big squad dropping out, so one squad is forced to play them, while another squad gets a shitty replacement squad to rape

This shows that +/- has far too much of a luck factor to it that squads have no control over. While with head to head there is almost no luck involved. The only flaw in head to head is if one team is unfortunate and can't show a good line. But the same flaw is basically present in +/- because if they can't show a good line their +/- suffers also. And as rand said numerous times (then took back when arguing for +/- ) this is the big leagues, you should fight hard every match because one screwup could fuck you over in the playoff race. And the moronic excuse of "not knowing that 1 game can affect if you get into the playoffs or not" is garbage. If you aren't going to put up a fight every game then you don't deserve to be in the playoffs anyways. Especially if you are competing against other mid-tier jav squads who you should KNOW that you will end up being in the playoff race with.

I don't blame grapevine or pirates for getting in over us, it wasn't them that screwed us over, it was the system.

[Violence]

exactly bob.

[Crazy Canockout]

Granted Bob, but here is my solution:

1- Reschedule forfeits for week 11, and if that team has dropped out or has been d/q'd by then, the replacement squad will play the opposing squad week 11.

2- Don't allow 5v4 or 5v3, and reschedule those games, that is if they aren't d/q'd already, this way if that squad wants to win, or the replacement squad wants a fair crack at the opponent that would have gone away with a huge +/-, they can play them in week 11.

3- As for the "easier schedules", don't cry over spilled milk, it isn't much of a big deal Bob... I personally don't want to change the whole system because of a little misfortune. It isn't like they are completely lopsided or something.

And finally, the worst case scenario, would be having a couple extra games in week 11.

I counted the forfeits and 5v4/5v3's this season, and they added up to a total of four forfeits(Hinder week 1, Elenya week 5, Shriek week 6, and Elenya week 7) and four 5v4/3's (hinder week 2, tanked week 7, hinder week 9, Tanked week 9.) Since there are eight games in a weekend, I don't see why they couldn't just use week 11 for a replay weekend, that is if they get their bots straight, and don't use up anymore room. And plus, this has been a bad twl for forfeits and 5v4/3's.

As for the final part of your post, Bob, I would have to say that if a newcomer squad shows 5 javs, and the other squad shows 5, there is nothing to complain about. If Shriek for example gets d/q'd and gets replaced by anyone else, that's just tough, since the newcoming squad is theoretically good enough to play. I blame that situation on Shriek, and not on TWL rules.

EDIT: Also, I almost forgot, I know some will now say that if a team fails to show 5, then it is their fault. Okay, understood, but if they are given another chance to replay in week 11, they would have practiced more by then, so would their opponents, which would show for a better match played indeed. And plus, it isn't like they aren't getting punished, because they will be replaced if they forfeit twice, or if I was in charge, they would be d/q'd if they showed less than 5, or forfeited more than once.

[Bob (SRB)]

good points cc, here's what I would like for next season:

• NO conferences. Every squad plays every other squad once, that way nobody gets easier schedules.
  
• Head to head deciding factors for tied squads. twl is the big leagues, fight your hardest and try to beat everyone, you never know who you'll be fighting for the playoffs against. Don't think "oh we can afford to lose this one" or "this is only the first game of the season, it won't make much difference if we win or lose"
  
• Allow 4v5, but not 3v5. If you can't show 5 to a game in twl then you don't deserve to be there in the first place (unless absolutely EVERYTHING goes wrong and you have complete worst case scenario) 3v5 would count as a forfeit.
  
• No rescheduling for forfeits. If you're team can't show enough people then that is your fault, you don't get a second chance. And plus, all the good squads that deserve to be in twl always show enough. The ones that don't usually dissolve in the next couple weeks anyways so they won't be around week 11, or just play like garbage the whole season and lose every game anyways (tanked).
  
• possibly cut down the amount of spots for each league to 12. This will promote competitiveness in each league so some of the undeserving dropout squads won't find their way in (at the beginning of twl, in both twlj and twld i believe their were 3 or 4 squads people were complaining about that shouldn't be in twl, making 12 the perfect number). Look at basing this year, it only had 12 spots and they had far less dropouts than ld and lj.
  
• Squads have to be in twd for at least 2 months to be elligible for twl. And ultimately the ops should have the final call (such as a shaky squad that only has 10 members losing their spot to a stable squad just a bit lower on the ladder).

[Crazy Canockout]

Good points except:

Like I mentioned in a previous post, I like +/- better, and for a particular reason, which was mentioned in that post(I hate repeating myself.) Also, the only idea I like of yours, is that you have to prove somehow that your squad is good enough to compete in TWL, like maybe you have to have it working mechanically for at least 4-5 months or something(I don't know the exact perfect setting), who knows how long. I really think it comes down to the squads in TWL, and all those shaky squads. That would solve everything if we could somehow get enough competitive squads. Unless that happens, I still think my solutions are better .

[Awesome]

1- Reschedule forfeits for week 11, and if that team has dropped out or has been d/q'd by then, the replacement squad will play the opposing squad week 11.

2- Don't allow 5v4 or 5v3, and reschedule those games, that is if they aren't d/q'd already, this way if that squad wants to win, or the replacement squad wants a fair crack at the opponent that would have gone away with a huge +/-, they can play them in week 11.

both of thsee are good in theory but in practice, neither are all that good cc. Here's an example why:

remember our game vs. british squad? they had a hard time showing even 4 and then they had to have a 5 minute time extension hoping for a 5th to show... and one eventually did. they were losing horribly (atleast 2:1, there was a 14 kills in a row streak going at one point against them) and then they all specced and demanded a reply during week 11 when the bot lagged out. other squads who cant show their lines would just demand replays and week 11 would turn into the most games played of any week. You could just have British Squad make sure they show their top line for 1 day (saturday of week 11) and they'd just delay every game until that day so they'd have their best chance of winning.

if a team cant show 5 players, they should be kicked out of twl and a forfeit win granted to the other team.

[Violence]

well i think head to head is better as a tie breaker but heres a solution so theres less forfeits and shit.

in hockey zone which is sometimes a 12 team league or sometimes a 16 team league, theres a rule that a squad can postpone ther match and it is rescheduled at a later date, the team has 2 or 3 forfeits per season and they carry over to the playoffs i think. This will ensure that the games r more competitve and ther will be less 5v4 and 5v3 aswell as less forfeits. I think its a really good idea especially in the summer when you have people going away and stuff.

what do u guys think.