TWL-B Semi-Finals - Plade vs. Fire - Appeal GRANTED (Discussion)

[Singer]

I feel wirah's call is very unbaised..... cant be more factual of an agreement, and decision then that....

Sorry man, I didn't know feelings were facts now. Let me say it louder again for the people in the back:

-I DONT CARE ABOUT WIRAH'S FEELINGS

-THERE'S A RULEBOOK, ACTUALLY USE IT

-WHEN DID WIRAH'S FEELING BECOME GREATER THAN THE RULES

[mean gene]

:ship5::ship8::ship3::ship2::tonka::smash::lipsrse aled2::argue::fireman::behead::whip::deal2::gossip ::furious3::gossip::toff::deal::ship2::dizzy2::huh ::gossip::egypt:oliceman::deal::ship5::ship8::ship3::drummer::2thu mbsup::guitarist::2thumbsup:perator::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

well said stayon.

as public assassin would likely say... REPLAY!!!

[Pressure]

Lettuce not overlook that thix was rated 5th out 6 terriers this season and is now in finals. What a come back

According to RageRitual's stats, I was ranked #2 in regular season and remain #2 currently (statistically, of course).

[Pressure]

Double posted. Please delete this.

[Dwopple]

As other's have stated, the lack of objectivity in this decision is pretty sad. TWL rules don't matter here. A certain group of people cried loud tears which resulted in precedent, objectivity, and the TWL rules to be thrown out (or at the very least fluidly interpreted in their favor).

Since we're completely disregarding TWL rules (which state appeal rulings are final cannot be appealed) can we appeal the ruling? Just kidding, don't open that can of worms.

Zid and ogron win the golden ticket to keep their basement breathing, dangerously low vitamin-d levels streak alive for (at least) 1 more LB match. It is what it is.

If you don't like it, you can:
1) not play
2) suck it up
3) join Fire / Thunder

I hope the rematch and finals are as intense as semi's and the appeal thread were!

Edit: I've become a TW basement breather again myself after this past semi's weekend. We need another league after this!

[qan]

The difficulty with making a call here -- which was done by the current active Head Sysops of TW, namely myself and Wirah -- is that a precedent has already been set that this is not cheating, but rather a bending of rules, and a bending that has been done consciously by many in the past, without punishment or in some cases even comment.

Anyone calling for a permanent TWL ban on Dreamwin for this must presumably also be in favor of retroactively banning anyone who has done this to bypass the respawn timer in the past. Either bypassing the timer (and in some cases turning invisible) is cheating and deserves the mandated punishment, or it isn't.

Interpreting rules comes down to not just working from the letter of the law, but also the spirit. To ban Dreamwin and grant a forfeit would be following the letter of the law. But that rule was made for cases in which someone is very clearly cheating. For example, using CE, cable-pulling and so on.

However, this is not a clear-cut case of cheating. Why? Precisely because it's been given tacit approval by league ops and participants in the past. It would be a gross injustice to suddenly inflict maximum punishment for something that has been overlooked and accepted as normal play in the past.

The spirit of the law here is to prevent cheating. The letter of the law is intended only to put that spirit into words. If the letter of the law overrides the spirit and results in tyranny, it completely invalidates the intent.

We are using this appeal as a means to establish, from this moment forward, that abusing this bug is considered cheating, despite the fact that in the past, it was not treated as such.

We're also patching up the bug, and considering extended delays to punish those who attempt to mine-clear in this way.

A replay of R3 is not "fair" in many ways. There was no "fair" choice. Life and Subspace are not fair. It's still the best possible outcome given these unprecedented circumstances.

[Singer]

If you don't like it, you can:
1) not play
2) suck it up
3) join Fire / Thunder

Pretty much this,

When your TWL Op is a pompous asshole that talks shit all the time and only cares about winning no matter what… Let’s just send the totally unbiased appeal process over to a really good guy on the Thunder chat that can’t be bothered with using the rules to make his final verdict which can’t even be challenged.

Can’t wait for Zidane to ?message me 10 times next DT season to beg me to play his poopie league again

[Singer]

However, this is not a clear-cut case of cheating. Why? Precisely because it's been given tacit approval by league ops and participants in the past. It would be a gross injustice to suddenly inflict maximum punishment for something that has been overlooked and accepted as normal play in the past.

So you actually think that Dreamwin attempted to cheat on purpose because he quickly changed his ship to a jav after he died??? This is the thought-process that went into this?
Changing ships is allowed, you want to do it as quickly as you can while you're dead, no where in the rules does it say you can't do it and the bot allows you to do it. THIS ISN'T CHEATING. You just decided to "feel" like it wasn't fair after seeing on replay that your zone settings were flawed, don't go calling dreamwin a cheater when changing to a jav at the last minute of a game to attempt to break through a cram is a normal strategy that everyone's tried before.

[Dwopple]

The difficulty with making a call here -- which was done by the current active Head Sysops of TW, namely myself and Wirah -- is that a precedent has already been set that this is not cheating, but rather a bending of rules, and a bending that has been done consciously by many in the past, without punishment or in some cases even comment.

Anyone calling for a permanent TWL ban on Dreamwin for this must presumably also be in favor of retroactively banning anyone who has done this to bypass the respawn timer in the past. Either bypassing the timer (and in some cases turning invisible) is cheating and deserves the mandated punishment, or it isn't.

Interpreting rules comes down to not just working from the letter of the law, but also the spirit. To ban Dreamwin and grant a forfeit would be following the letter of the law. But that rule was made for cases in which someone is very clearly cheating. For example, using CE, cable-pulling and so on.

However, this is not a clear-cut case of cheating. Why? Precisely because it's been given tacit approval by league ops and participants in the past. It would be a gross injustice to suddenly inflict maximum punishment for something that has been overlooked and accepted as normal play in the past.

The spirit of the law here is to prevent cheating. The letter of the law is intended only to put that spirit into words. If the letter of the law overrides the spirit and results in tyranny, it completely invalidates the intent.

We are using this appeal as a means to establish, from this moment forward, that abusing this bug is considered cheating, despite the fact that in the past, it was not treated as such.

We're also patching up the bug, and considering extended delays to punish those who attempt to mine-clear in this way.

A replay of R3 is not "fair" in many ways. There was no "fair" choice. Life and Subspace are not fair. It's still the best possible outcome given these unprecedented circumstances.

How hilariously, and sadly, convenient this ruling is to the same group of people who have benefited from "rules" being interpreted in their favor in the past. It's become TW canon at this point, of which many TWers (myself included) consider it a pattern.

I get it, but this approach hasn't been taken in the past (refer to the second half of the bolded line above and Stayon's post in the previous thread).

The community remembers.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not bashing qan or wirah's decision making process... this isn't their fault. I'm just pointing out how fluid the "rules" have been applied in TWL and who has benefited from it.

[qan]

So you actually think that Dreamwin attempted to cheat on purpose because he quickly changed his ship to a jav after he died??? This is the thought-process that went into this?
Changing ships is allowed, you want to do it as quickly as you can while you're dead, no where in the rules does it say you can't do it and the bot allows you to do it. THIS ISN'T CHEATING. You just decided to "feel" like it wasn't fair after seeing on replay that your zone settings were flawed, don't go calling dreamwin a cheater when changing to a jav at the last minute of a game to attempt to break through a cram is a normal strategy that everyone's tried before.

To say "something isn't a clear-cut case of cheating" isn't to say "it's a case of cheating, but just not one that is clear-cut." It says nothing on whether or not it was cheating. That's what's at issue here.

Many people knew about this and used it in the past. As a result of that it's much more likely to say that this wasn't considered cheating by most people in the zone. The only reason it's being considered cheating by some now is because the effect was so substantial in this one instance, whereas most of the time it's not noticeable.

Regardless of what you consider it, I think we can all agree that these aren't the terms anyone would like to win (or lose) on. I might be mistaken on that point, though.

[Singer]

To say "something isn't a clear-cut case of cheating" isn't to say "it's a case of cheating, but just not one that is clear-cut." It says nothing on whether or not it was cheating. That's what's at issue here.

Many people knew about this and used it in the past. As a result of that it's much more likely to say that this wasn't considered cheating by most people in the zone. The only reason it's being considered cheating by some now is because the effect was so substantial in this one instance, whereas most of the time it's not noticeable.

Regardless of what you consider it, I think we can all agree that these aren't the terms anyone would like to win (or lose) on. I might be mistaken on that point, though.

I'm sure everyone's fine with getting a replay, even though based on the rulebook and the appeal that was formulated, it shouldn't have happened.

In his moment of brilliance, zidane appealed for the maximum penalty of banning dreamwin and having Plade forfeit.
He clearly stated that his appeal is motivated on calling out dreamwin is a cheater.

If you're "half-granting" this appeal then that means you actually have "half-believe" that dreamwin had the intention to cheat...

That middle-ground verdict that you took wasn't suggested anywhere in zidane's appeal and you just decided that this is what would make everyone happy in the end

[ronaldinho]

, cable-pulling and so on.

Not sure banning people for cable pulling would be a great idea :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Dabram]

Qan I agree there was no fair outcome, that's the shitty part about these glitches. A replay makes most sense. No one appealed for that. The appeal was on a permanent ban + forfeit loss.

DW would've more than gladly been 'visible' when he attached to bomb that cram. No one would've had grounds for an appeal then, as the rules are 100% clear on how and when you can use changes or switches (do I really need to quote this part as well? there's even a cute section about how it resets your mines as a shark, probably because someone has done it so many times in the past, it deserved it's own paragraph). Nowhere does it say you need to wait out your deadtimer.
Maybe what could come closer to 'fair' is having a panel which uses the actual TWL rulebook on the proceedings of an appeal and the sections on what the appeal is trying to challenge, when making a ruling on this matter. Why is there a rulebook for TWL if the panel can decide to just not open it? It's just a tiny bit worrisome.

[skyforger]

amazed anyone who isnt thunder still tries to take this game seriously rather than a source of comedy

[Dwopple]

amazed anyone who isnt thunder still tries to take this game seriously rather than a source of comedy

DEAR SKYFORGER,

You are so right.

What's even more amazing is how many people from historically diverse squad backgrounds are pointing this out, both privately and publicly.

The community remembers.