TWL-B Semi-Finals - Plade vs. Fire - Appeal GRANTED (Discussion)

[Nipple Nibbler]

I think we can all agree the rules need clear and followed. Any rules we are not willing to follow should be removed. I am not saying remove Zidane from the next game, I am saying however maybe we should remove the rule. Same with the rule involving Riverside refusing to play for DT. The rule wasn't followed so remove the rule. We should follow ALL of the rules listed, or we can't take any of them seriously. This includes the ones at A1 in public arenas that staff don't follow either. If any of the rules can not be taken seriously, remove them. The zone clearly needs more than just "don't drop N bombs".

For unlucky crap that happens and doesn't quite fit into the rules maybe for events the OP should have 2 players that are completely different from him (or her) to be available to make judgement calls in 2 votes out of 3 scenario. They can even be voted in by the players or something before events start.

[Rab]

Pretty obvious that rule was intended to stop people taking the piss appealing everything. So it should say that.

[paradise!]

I'm sure everyone's fine with getting a replay, even though based on the rulebook and the appeal that was formulated, it shouldn't have happened.

In his moment of brilliance, zidane appealed for the maximum penalty of banning dreamwin and having Plade forfeit.
He clearly stated that his appeal is motivated on calling out dreamwin is a cheater.

If you're "half-granting" this appeal then that means you actually have "half-believe" that dreamwin had the intention to cheat...

That middle-ground verdict that you took wasn't suggested anywhere in zidane's appeal and you just decided that this is what would make everyone happy in the end

I don't think you understand what was said.

If your claim surrounds the rulebook, then you're wrong since he knowingly abused a bug (against A1 rules) which strictly requires a netban (this is conditionless). However, since even zid has manipulated switches to reset mines (along with many other sharks), no one is using the literal reading of the rules. As a community, we go by the spirit of the rules.

Have we ever seen this exploit before?
No, this is an unseen exploit that was only previously used by dreamwin himself and no others (correct me if im wrong). This is an exploit used by only one person, that uses mechanism OUTSIDE of what is typically seen. This is not on the level of switching ships to reset mines or to get extra reps. This is a new exploit.

Is this exploit significantly more abusive than other bugs?
Forgive me, I do not know every possible basing exploit/bug. The ability to make your ship invisible and completely destroy a cram with a single bomb in a fraction of a second (the opposing team has no ability to prepare) is unlike any bug I've seen. There is no warbird equivalent and there is no javelin equivalent. Other exploits have the ability to potentially influence the game, but this is mitigated by the fact that teams have more time to prepare, the decreased impact of other exploits, etc. For these reasons, I argue it is in fact significantly more abusive than other bugs.

Was this abuse intentional? (i.e. Was dreamwin aware that his ship would be invisible?)
using the linked video from TWDTB and the quote from himself, yes he was aware he would be invisible. In fact, he has previously done this knowing full well it was such an egregious abuse that the entire arena broke out in "LOL" when he pulled it off in another point of desperation.

All these arguments dwopple and singer are putting forth are dookieness and constantly changing. First it was "Oh well...its not against TWL rules tho!!!" then they saw hes done it before and switched it to "But he did last time and he didnt get in trouble!" Then it became "but zid gets extra reps sometimes!" and finally they are acting like theyre pissed they get a full replay after their captain abused a previously unseen bug so badly that THE ENTIRE ARENA WAS DYING IN LAUGHTER AT HOW EXPLOITATIVE IT WAS. But yeah man it's Fire's fault for not saving their reps for an invisible ship? Oh zid switched himself to reset mines (like every other team does?)? Don't make me laugh. Don't take the technical argument, because you lose everytime at that. I've been anti-Fire/anti-thunder for a long ass time, but we can all spot an exceptionally bad bug abuse when we see it. Stop gaslighting.

[Singer]

Sorry paradise but if all you have to do to exploit a bug and be labeled as a cheater is type !change dreamwin:2 then maybe the problem is with the bot and the server.

There are no rules in place that says you can't do what dreamwin did and being so convinced in saying that dreamwin is a cheater when he has no clue of knowing if his ship is actually invisible to the other people's point of view is a huge stretch.

Zidane's whole appeal is to call out dreamwin and portray him as a cheater along with clausehouse's cringy "dear dreamwin" thread.

Fire was so set on making dreamwin be seen as a cheater in order to get a free forfeit win even though there's no ruling in place that could ever allow that, so instead we got these "decision makers" who decided to bend the rules since nothing applies.

It's just crazy to me that our TWL Op goes all out on accusing someone of cheating and trying to get a free forfeit win over this bullshit, I had to double-check and make sure that Trench Wars' Mission Statement is still to provide an environment that promotes integrity, good sportsmanship and fun....

Thank god we're able to bend the rules for these people full of good sportsmanship and integrity

[Dwopple]

Whoa whoa, i'm not pissed at the outcome. I think it's a fair ruling.

I am merely pointing out the same thing many others in the community have pointed out that the same group of people tend to benefit from such fluid interpretation of the "rules." It's demoralizing.

Don't get me wrong, Zid and Ogron and the rest of Thunder / Fire are great players, and arguably the top players in their respective ships today. But this facade of "integrity" is pretty fucking disgusting, given their (Zid and Ogron) history in this zone.

[Flew]

Just wanted to know if anyone’s thought of the fact that we might be in a Kleenex shortage after this Sunday when Ogron and Zidane lose this Sunday. Imagine all the crying and the tears!

[ronaldinho]

The famous Flew move that consist of calling victory before the game happen.. not good! This Sunday I hope every good citizen of Trench Wars will send their energy, their soul and their heart to San Dreamwin to perform a gigantic genkidama

[paradise!]

Sorry paradise but if all you have to do to exploit a bug and be labeled as a cheater is type !change dreamwin:2 then maybe the problem is with the bot and the server.

There are no rules in place that says you can't do what dreamwin did and being so convinced in saying that dreamwin is a cheater when he has no clue of knowing if his ship is actually invisible to the other people's point of view is a huge stretch.

Zidane's whole appeal is to call out dreamwin and portray him as a cheater along with clausehouse's cringy "dear dreamwin" thread.

Fire was so set on making dreamwin be seen as a cheater in order to get a free forfeit win even though there's no ruling in place that could ever allow that, so instead we got these "decision makers" who decided to bend the rules since nothing applies.

It's just crazy to me that our TWL Op goes all out on accusing someone of cheating and trying to get a free forfeit win over this bullshit, I had to double-check and make sure that Trench Wars' Mission Statement is still to provide an environment that promotes integrity, good sportsmanship and fun....

Thank god we're able to bend the rules for these people full of good sportsmanship and integrity

Did you close your eyes when you came on here and wrote this? I addressed literally every point you just made. You think that because the rules dont explicitly say you cant turn your ship invisible and bomb cram then it's allowed? You're not actually that dumb right? You expect every single exploit to be itemized? What if he thor'd the base? I don't see anything about not thor'ing the base in the rules. Boy if you dont get your stupid ass gr 6 logic outta here ima get REAL fkn mad.

The argument that "Well what he did isnt against the rules" is an absolutely dogshit argument. We are all familiar with the game to know that there is an understood reading of the rules. How many times do I have to say this?

He is a DE FACTO cheater. Everyone uses switches to reset mines. This is a pervasive, known, but clearly unintended use of the switch command. However, it is tempered by the fact that very few switches are allotted to each team and they are allotted equally. We don't call people who use switch in this way to be cheaters. Create whatever technical argument you want, but the fact remains that this guy knowingly turned his ship invisible right when his team was about to lose and got a teamfer for his squad. What more do you want? I stand by what I said the first time: this will go down as one of the most egregious bug abuses in TWL history.

[Beast]

Did you close your eyes when you came on here and wrote this? I addressed literally every point you just made. You think that because the rules dont explicitly say you cant turn your ship invisible and bomb cram then it's allowed? You're not actually that dumb right? You expect every single exploit to be itemized? What if he thor'd the base? I don't see anything about not thor'ing the base in the rules. Boy if you dont get your stupid ass gr 6 logic outta here ima get REAL fkn mad.

The argument that "Well what he did isnt against the rules" is an absolutely dogshit argument. We are all familiar with the game to know that there is an understood reading of the rules. How many times do I have to say this?

He is a DE FACTO cheater. Everyone uses switches to reset mines. This is a pervasive, known, but clearly unintended use of the switch command. However, it is tempered by the fact that very few switches are allotted to each team and they are allotted equally. We don't call people who use switch in this way to be cheaters. Create whatever technical argument you want, but the fact remains that this guy knowingly turned his ship invisible right when his team was about to lose and got a teamfer for his squad. What more do you want? I stand by what I said the first time: this will go down as one of the most egregious bug abuses in TWL history.

stop dude.. you are using WAY TOO MUCH logic here.. it's above a mentally retarded, egotistical democratic (wanna be, communist) 30 year old, just look at seattle for the perfect comparison....

[Zizzo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXROL6uJBg4&t=643

Why is nobody demanding mcvicar to be banned for teleporting into flagroom!? Clearly abusing a bug and attaching to a dead terrier.

On more serious note nice to see this years old bug finally being fixed.

[Zizzo]

Or Ease abusing attach to get rid of burst at https://youtu.be/yjKgv-zgLDM?t=1519

edit: on this video he actually fails to do so but due how the game works others may see it differently

[With Ease]

Or Ease abusing attach to get rid of burst at https://youtu.be/yjKgv-zgLDM?t=1519

edit: on this video he actually fails to do so but due how the game works others may see it differently

You mean attaching so I don't die to the burst, in an area where the burst doesn't even reach cram? The horror.

[Singer]

Did you close your eyes when you came on here and wrote this? I addressed literally every point you just made. You think that because the rules dont explicitly say you cant turn your ship invisible and bomb cram then it's allowed? You're not actually that dumb right? You expect every single exploit to be itemized? What if he thor'd the base? I don't see anything about not thor'ing the base in the rules. Boy if you dont get your stupid ass gr 6 logic outta here ima get REAL fkn mad.

The argument that "Well what he did isnt against the rules" is an absolutely dogshit argument. We are all familiar with the game to know that there is an understood reading of the rules. How many times do I have to say this?

He is a DE FACTO cheater. Everyone uses switches to reset mines. This is a pervasive, known, but clearly unintended use of the switch command. However, it is tempered by the fact that very few switches are allotted to each team and they are allotted equally. We don't call people who use switch in this way to be cheaters. Create whatever technical argument you want, butthe fact remains that this guy knowingly turned his ship invisible right when his team was about to lose and got a teamfer for his squad. What more do you want? I stand by what I said the first time: this will go down as one of the most egregious bug abuses in TWL history.

I don’t even want to keep on posting on this since the verdict has already been rendered and it can’t be challenged no matter what, which is bullshit, but since you’re treating me like a retard, I’ll have to respond for the final time, hopefully.

First of all I’d like to say I’m sorry that I’m basing myself on the rules, which is only something that’s been done on this game for the last TWENTY YEARS, up until now, I’m really stupid for doing that. My bad.

Second of all, everything you’ve been saying is full of assumptions that dreamwin actually wanted to turn himself invisible to destroy Fire’s cram.

Yes, we have video evidence showing that that he went invisible and shot a bomb and yes, it’s not fair that it happened, but did dreamwin really want that to happen???

Do you really think that while there is 1 minute left on the timer in a full on intense cram battle, he thought to himself “oh wow if I turned myself invisible in a jav right now and shot a bomb, that would be really badass??”

If you think that, that’s your ASSUMPTION.

What we know FOR SURE is that dreamwin typed a command to the bot to change himself into a javelin in a desperation move to break a cram…. Which is something that’s been done THOUSANDS of times before and it’s a tactic that’s been employed for TWENTY years. If this bug was so obvious and easy to abuse like you’re assuming, you’d think it would have been noticed and corrected in the last TWENTY years? or something would have been implemented about it into the rules??

Why is it that this super obvious bug that you’re alleging dreamwin intentionally made use of seems to have only happened at a frequency of about 1% in the last thousands of times that someone’s changed their ship to try to break a cram? That sure sounds like a game breaking bug that everyone should keep in mind to try to cheat and win a game with!!

All that's happened here is that with the way the settings are made and how the bots are programmed, the game behaved in a weird way that wasn’t fair, just like how lagging because of the server can be out of your control sometimes…

Do you sometimes want to call someone a cheater because of weird lag? Sure.. but is it something to get banned on? No.

Has there been times in TWL history where the game seemed unfair because of something like a server issue? Yes, off the top of my head I’ve seen a few times Fludd have some spike lag in critical situations of playoff games where he would proceed to tank bombs and kill someone in the last remaining deaths left which changed the game completely, similar to that bs jav bomb cram break.

But was there something done about that bs lag moment that made Fludd win? Nope.. why? Because there was no evidence to point that Fludd really abused his lag and there wasn’t anything in the rules to go against it.

So if we compare that kind of judgment to the dreamwin situation…
What is the evidence that he wanted to abuse a bug there..?
Is it because you are aware that a similar incident was reproduced by dreamwin once before, in the hundreds of times that he’s changed himself to a jav in order to break a cram?
Because he’s said that he's aware that this kind of bug exists... like many other people in the zone knew before?

If you can go ahead and prove to me that dreamwin willfully wanted to cheat by turning himself invisible and that he knew what he was doing, I’ll gladly accept I was wrong and I'll be on your side.. but for now you’re just giving me assumptions.. which is why the appeal verdict was just based off “feelings” which has never been done before in the last twenty years.

[Rab]

Singer's that guy in the jungle who thinks the war's still on.

[2pac]

The war was over when dreamwin fucked you guys in the ass and yet you guys want rm after the fact that its most flag time wins and by those 3 rounds totalled added up Plade won clearly. Keep bitching rab next week get that asshole primed.