Separating the Dueling and Basing leagues

[Izor]

meh, i dont care about monday games enough to argue about it, i just thought it might be nice to have in case a couple members of a squad were gonna be gone for the weekend.

And Suff, if you're separating the leagues, then you wont need to limit the teams to 12. More players will enter leagues as duelers convert to basers and the vice versa. You'll still have 16 games/week with the same rules of scheduling, excetp now you can enforce 5 timeslots/game and scheduling rules will be followed

[Reaver]

again the problem with what reaver suggests is that this just diminishes the amount of players who will get to play in TWL, with squads like TeKs and Passion who are considered "nice squads" and obviously have some perseverence to stick it out even tho they really sucked comparatively. If we go down to 10 teams this will mean that some of the teams where new players would get a chance to paly wont exist. im hoping that in this way there will be a future for these players in a year or two when they have some experience.

The whole point of TWL, in my point of view, is that its where more experienced players play against eachother or atleast thats what it was before. If you want TWL to be much closer to TWD then go for it. You'll either have many people participating in TWL whereas its not nearly as difficult to get in and the average skill level is lower, or you'll have fewer people playing and have TWL harder to get into, the average skill level being higher also. On top of that, if fewer squads are accepted into TWL, then fewer games need to be hosted. But like I said before, there are plenty of people interested in joining staff that could help with hosting, but just arent given the chance.

[Sufficient]

meh, i dont care about monday games enough to argue about it, i just thought it might be nice to have in case a couple members of a squad were gonna be gone for the weekend.

And Suff, if you're separating the leagues, then you wont need to limit the teams to 12. More players will enter leagues as duelers convert to basers and the vice versa. You'll still have 16 games/week with the same rules of scheduling, excetp now you can enforce 5 timeslots/game and scheduling rules will be followed

The reason why we limit squads to 12 per league is for the sole reason of having 1 conference. Playing each team once lasts 11 weeks. Having 16 squads per league and having them in 1 conference each playing each other once ... means *15* weeks of regular season. That imo is too long. That's the biggest reason. I hope I'm speaking for the majority when I say that TWL needs to last a max of 4 months (16 weeks). Anything beyond that is dragging it out into something boring. I hope this is an adequete explaination. 12 squads per league makes it comparible in length to the current setup.

[Miku19]

It's a common fact that duelers who convert to basing are horrible people who failed as a WB, like knockers on disoblige and the kings kid. After several years they realised that they were below the average in WB, and they finally converted to basing.

Duelers rarely convert to basing unless they suck. They rather go 2 or 3 league, not pure basing.

I think he meant the gazillion of people that still continue dueling, but have picked up basing too. Also, don't turn this thread into a discussion about which league is the hardest.

In my opinion, if the dueling leagues and basing get separated, why wouldn't you separate LD from LJ too? They're not connected in any way either.

[Windreaper]

In my opinion, if the dueling leagues and basing get separated, why wouldn't you separate LD from LJ too? They're not connected in any way either.

We'd have leagues all year long and no offseason to "fix" bots, make map changes, qualify, etc. One year is just too short for 3 separate events imo.

[RATTY...]

I think he meant the gazillion of people that still continue dueling, but have picked up basing too. Also, don't turn this thread into a discussion about which league is the hardest.
In my opinion, if the dueling leagues and basing get separated, why wouldn't you separate LD from LJ too? They're not connected in any way either.

I was talking about people who were converting to basing, not which league who is the hardest. And it's true what I said, no matter how you look at it.

5 ships on a team, 10 deaths out, 50 kills to win. Still hard to see the connection? The ships DUEL.

[Windreaper]

And it's true what I said, no matter how you look at it.

I'm adding gasoline to fire, but: One screwup in dueling leagues can lead to your death. One screwup in base can lead to your team losing the game. Add to this the fact, that there's only a handful of people really good at the critical base ships, I'd call the case closed . What they have in common is that the better team usually wins, so shush .

[Kim]

Phren, a couple of reasons. If you were to separate the leagues into 3, this would call for an extremely tight schedule with TWD ranking and starting TWL with no delay to ensure it doesn't cut into the next league's season time. LJ and LD together is manageable.

I would be satisfied with a 20 roster limit, as some people have promoted.

Also, TWD clearing all squads is an off-setting method for TWD staff to remove as much clutter as possible. If are allowed to linger, double squadding becomes less and less obvious, and players don't get caught under the radar half the time until we are tipped off.

[Miku19]

5 ships on a team, 10 deaths out, 50 kills to win. Still hard to see the connection? The ships DUEL.

Just like hockey and soccer are connected. You have to shove an object into the net. Most goals to win. OMGLOL THE PLAYERS PLAY!

Kimchi actually brought a better point up.

[Darkmoor]

Lets have a look at this then... An interesting idea to separate the leagues to TWLJ+TWLD and TWLB. Much easier said than done though.

I remember a few people a while back people brought up the idea that we should lower the roster limit on all squads to something incredibly low like 15 just so that you can have a first line of players you would show to their respective leagues, whether it be basing, javs, or warbirds. This doesn't work out because basing league requires eight players, which is much more demanding considering that not all of the players can play the ship that the squad requires. What if, we were to separate the leagues so that it would work bi-annually, meaning in the summer you could have the dueling league running, and in the fall you would have the basing league running, never together. Roster limit for basing league should remain at 35, but should not be regulated during TWD ladder play. Dueling league squads can have a roster limit of 15 during leagues, 20 during TWD ladder play, just because the players who play in the squad can be with any other player without having to worry about ship set problems that will occur with basing.

15 players for TWLD+TWLJ? Great... except that it is not enough, 20 at least is needed, LD != LJ. Why would you keep LB at 35? It should also go down equally, to about 24-26 at least.

Also, what is this about having 20 players in DD(+JD)? You would just kill the activity. It is impossible to keep a globally active squad with only 20 players. Do not regulate TWD rosters, or keep it as high as 30+ if you do.

Some advantages to this are:
1) Trench Wars is no matter how you look at it, a basing zone. When a new player comes to this zone, we will guarantee them that basing will have its own league specialized at what this zone is geared to do.

Not really an advantage this one. For new players it would be more important to fix the disaster that is called "Public arenas". Besides, we already have a league specialised in basing.

2) Less burden on the players and staff - Staff will have less problems with being short-handed on league weekends, and players won't be demanded to stay on for extended hours at a time to grind through 3 league games, week after week during league season.

Instead of having a shorter more hectic period you will constantly have a somewhat less hectic period.

3) Squads have too many "middle-ground" men who are not being put in the spotlight for what they are good at. There are too many players that are simply not in the spotlight when they are overshadowed by the players who MVP every game for their squads.

How is this a problem? If the players want to stay in that particular squad, then let them stay. Why should they be forced to leave only because they do not fit on the roster (TWD/TWL)?

4) This gives a chance for players who are normally duelers to REALLY try out basing, and for basers to step into the realm of dueling -- I think this is one of the greatest advantages, because even though a 3 league squad will have players that will say that "I will try to Warbird this season", will never get around to doing it because the squad demands them to do what they are best at instead of wasting time away from practicing from what they are good at.

You can try them out now as well...

6) Squads who are currently basing squads that do not wish to participate in the dueling leagues will not be removed from TWD play nor from TWD ladders. However when it comes to league selection period, these squads will be omitted.

How is this an advantage? It is exactly the same as what is going on now...

7) At the end of each league, all squads will be erased from TWD and must be re-registered. You may think this is erratic and bothersome for the captains but, this will benefit us all in a few ways:

a) Inactive squads will automatically be removed bi-annually through this process
b) It gets the captains to re-think their approach to the squad based on their previous league appearance if they like it or not. In a sense, its a nudge to every squad captain alike to rethink their squad's direction, which may be lacking in many squads.
c) This may tick off players who have been in their squads for years upon years without leaving, having records on twd like Apr 2003 - Current. Dates don't make a player, in retrospect, if your captain accidently removed you from the roster and had you rejoin the squad, your long-time record would be removed just like that. Plus, it is still evident from squad history that you have been loyal to a squad, but it will be displayed like this instead:

Pirates (Sept 04 - Jan 05)
Pirates (May 05 - Aug 05)
etc etc.

The only good thing about this is that it will remove the inactive squads. It will be annoying to re-register every six months, but if you must do it at least keep it once per year.

As you said, it will tick off certain players. What is this "re-think their approach" thing? Like you could not do this otherwise...

This seems like a "lets go the easy way" solution (lazy staff). Awww... fuck it, lets just wipe the entire database and be done with it!

9) There may be an option to include for squad captains to create their squad mainly for Off-season purposes. For example, if the players of Anti-Scrub, a basing squad, did not wish to participate in the dueling leagues, they can select "off-season" for their Squad's reregistration at the start of the Dueling league season. This would allow them to have as many players as TWD allows them to have, still play in TWD games, but not qualify themselves when Dueling League selection commences.
.

This seems like a somewhat complicated setup. Seems like you would want to merge TWD and TWL. Lets keep them separate shall we?


There... some initial comments on this written in a hurry.

Nyt juomaan, perkele!

[Doc Flabby]

How is this an advantage? It is exactly the same as what is going on now...

The only good thing about this is that it will remove the inactive squads. It will be annoying to re-register every six months, but if you must do it at least keep it once per year.

As you said, it will tick off certain players. What is this "re-think their approach" thing? Like you could not do this otherwise...

This seems like a "lets go the easy way" solution (lazy staff). Awww... fuck it, lets just wipe the entire database and be done with it!

I really really dont like the idea of dissolving the squads every 6 months, I for one would be pretty pissed off about it. I've got enough work as it is as cap without having to to explain to all my players how to register on twd every 6 months.

Removing inactive squads is easy u just need to remove the ones with no players in.

Inactive squads and double squadding is not a TWL problem its a TWD one.

splittnig dueling and basing would make sence then you could just have 1 reset to decide twl qualifcation:

I think wiith this new pattern: TWL should have 4 leagues just having basing is boring for thoses non basers among us....I would like to see a ball game such as strikeball as its missing from twl and there are many excellent players that arnt able to compete in it

This i my idea of what you could do:
TWL should have 4 leagues 2 are played first half of year 2 second :

start of year
-- twld + twjd starts
-- twlb + twls (strikeball or spider or hockey or smoething else) qualfication starts

middle of year
-- twld + twjd winners annouched
-- twdd twjd reset (qualifcation starts)
-- twlb + twsb starts

start of next year
-- twlb + twls winners annouched
-- twbd twsb reset (qualifcation starts)
-- twld + twjd starts

middle of next year
-- etc etc

[Sufficient]

I think the problem with TWD is that there are really no seasons or champions. TWD should run in a set season and should crown a champion just for the sake of getting ppl to play more in order to win something. Let the TWLers get their TWL championship and let the TWDers do their TWD championship. Just base it on ranking and no special tourny. That way there is minimal work involved.

I mean doesn't the English Premier league and European leagues crown difference types of titles for those with best rec in the league and those who win the English tourny and those who win the Euro tourny?

[Kim]

Let me talk about two things that Darkmoor talked about in his post that are note-worthy.

First, roster limits at 20. However, I did not talk about how many squads will be able to qualify for playoffs. We may change the league brackets to accomodate for the higher supply of squads. You do not have to worry about teams not making the league. It is for certain, that we will not use the same number of qualifiers to the league as we do now if we have smaller teams.

Clearing out TWD is a TWD priority, and it is going to happen (after this TWL season). Hopefully if that goes well, we don't have to regularly re-register names, but you WILL have to after the end of this season as we are implimenting new bots. The only re-registering you will have to do is re-sign up your squad at the beginning of each Dueling or Basing season, adding players will not be a problem as we will remove restrictions to changing squads and playing elligibility in the first 2-3 days.

[Kim]

I think TWD has already been entrenched with the mindset made by many squads that it is just practice. If you were to crown a winner to TWD, it would be an award to the squad that practices the hardest, which isn't too prestigious. TWD is a nice change because the only consequence of losing in those games is a loss of points, which can be regained by winning games later on. Losing in TWL could mean a loss of a berth into the playoffs. So TWD in essence would be a nice relaxing change from TWL.

[Doc Flabby]

dissolving all the TWD squads is not a good idea....and its uneccesery i sure they could be migrated. Why not just remove the ones with no players, and hanvt played for over 6 months. I'll even write the sql to do it if people dont know how....

u need to listen and talk to the players rather than forcing this change on them....I dont think they are going to like it....i will retire from twd if flabby gets dissolved

and twd does matter, to people who dont play twl...Its not practice its how u get qualifed in twl...and also if you arnt a twl squad you play for points, you want to have the most its not "just" practice.

also why do we need yet more new bots why not just improve and make stable the existing ones, get the existing ones super reliable and working nicely then slowed add new features dont keep rewriting the fuckers its a make work project....