A final say on the separation of the leagues

[Sufficient]

This is not the way to do it. And the reason it is not a way is that since I've started playing the leagues (which was SlowBobs pyramide high-low tier) it has ALWAYS been about the squads and rivalries/respect. You have your core and season filler and you try to beat other squads inspite of your weaknesses or thanks to your strenghts. Take a squad, name it Whatever, put Disq, Domi, Sika and Blood in it, and guess what ppl will call it...

You want to make the leagues better - here is how: winter leagues, less regular season games (like 6 reg season games, then playoffs in groups of 4 squads, then semis), squadhopping+cheating rules improved (which has happened gg), strict(er) lag limits set and followed, few ERs trained to host manually...

How does this take away from rivalries and respect? Seriously ... you're sorta throwing out empty statements. I really dunno what your point is in the first paragraph I quoted. If you say "this is not the way to do it" ... then tell me WHY. I feel like I've addressed to the best of my ability the issues you may have, mainly the squadhopping problem that may arise.

6 reg season games ... how many teams do you expect to play TWL in each league. I very much doubt TWL ops will reduce TWL down to anything less than 12 squads. You'd hafta have 2 conferences which almost EVERYONE has agreed should NOT done for next season (correct me if I'm wrong but MOST ppl want one conference). Stricter lag limits and more/better refs is a GIVEN.

Here's an empty statement for you ... RSHL MSHL Pro/IML/AML all have continous seasons throughout the year. Now I don't think we should do it simply bc they do it ... but like I said there's an empty statement for ya.

Edit: It's kinda sad that there aren't ppl as passionate about improving TW/TWL ... it's a downer to think that TW is the biggest zone yet doesn't have ppl who are actually interested in thinking about improvements. I mean comon ... I haven't played TW in weeks ... I guess my opinions are not really as "valid" as Mantra or Crv or Vat. Take it as you will ... I'm sure no one else will be arguing for change as much as I am/will. TW continues to be the same regardless and ppl like me will find RSHL AML or Powerball leagues to go to.

[CrvenBan]

How does this take away from rivalries and respect? Seriously ... you're sorta throwing out empty statements. I really dunno what your point is in the first paragraph I quoted.

6 reg season games ... how many teams do you expect to play TWL in each league. I very much doubt TWL ops will reduce TWL down to anything less than 12 squads. You'd hafta have 2 conferences which almost EVERYONE has agreed should NOT done for next season (correct me if I'm wrong but MOST ppl want one conference). Stricter lag limits and more/better refs is a GIVEN.

I'm not throwing empty statements, ask some of the older people if they got it, but since you haven't let me break it to you. A squad is generally designed according to their league ambition, that's why you don't see any javs or basers on the QS ie. So if a squad has a 3-league ambition it will have a certain and different mix of players than a squad which goes for 2 duelling leagues. That entire bunch of people is what makes a squad.

Their name, regardless of how dumb it is, becomes like a fucking brand: I don't want Coca-cola on my sunday, I want Anti-scrub!! But you see, that Anti-scrub is Brook, Spy, Wind, Era, etc and they absolutley suck in duels, and that's what it should be. I, and I bet some others people as well, don't want to play a regular season games of BWC where you stick a bunch of people together - so I get to play vs Brook and Spy while I have Era annoying me on my squad freq ? No thank you. (I think you get the picture by now).
Splitting leagues will induce squadhopping and weaken the already existing ones, and when a squad named Bram's Little Childrn wins a duelling league it will mean dick because there is no weight behind it, there is no continuity, just random people playing at random new squads in random times.
Ask Bram if you don't believe me, would he rather play vs Space Thumpers and their lineup of Raspi, Colonel, Da1, Izor and Sika (Izor is the random newb in this lineup) or vs Syndicate (version 5.0) or -Final-


As for 6 games - reason for that is that it's faster getting into playoffs and games meaning something rather then just getting lazy 3 weeks cuz you're already through.
So with todays 16 teams lineup:
-2 groups of 8 teams
-each team plays 6 games according to seeding
-4 best from each group move on to playoffs
-new seeding is made according to group results, wins, +/- score
-1 3 5 7 make group A, 2 4 6 8 make group B
-each squad plays eachother once, in their group
-2 best from each group move into semis
-A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2
-finals

[CrvenBan]

I'm sure no one else will be arguing for change as much as I am/will. TW continues to be the same regardless and ppl like me will find RSHL AML or Powerball leagues to go to.

Except your changes are bad ones. You want to split leagues, make it BWC like, encourage squadhopping and take away the one thing which makes people play this dumbshit no good game for so many years
Why not argue for winter leagues, why not push map changes, why not advocate lag restrictions... ? There are plenty of ways to improve the leagues without destroying the essence of it.

And as for you leaving, you see that little wall above the flag, straight behind it there is a rock, just floating in the space, to its left - there are the doors.

[Displaced]

i think crv has hit the nail on the head..

[Sufficient]

I'm not throwing empty statements, ask some of the older people if they got it, but since you haven't let me break it to you. A squad is generally designed according to their league ambition, that's why you don't see any javs or basers on the QS ie. So if a squad has a 3-league ambition it will have a certain and different mix of players than a squad which goes for 2 duelling leagues. That entire bunch of people is what makes a squad.

Their name, regardless of how dumb it is, becomes like a fucking brand: I don't want Coca-cola on my sunday, I want Anti-scrub!! But you see, that Anti-scrub is Brook, Spy, Wind, Era, etc and they absolutley suck in duels, and that's what it should be.

I dunno but you sound like an ass ... "AS, brook, spy, wind, era suck at duel ... and that's what it should be". If you're against players and teams trying out dueling or trying out basing and TRYING to improve then just say so. There's no need to say it under the guise of "BRAND NAMES". Your statement isn't very relevant to the splitting of leagues. Diso will still have the Diso brand name ... so will AS. Seriously what's the problem? It's not like we're weakening any team by doing so. Either Diso will participate in all 3 leagues and if you apply my rule for squadhopping, any Diso member that participates in any TWL league MUST particpate with Diso ... no squadhopping.

I, and I bet some others people as well, don't want to play a regular season games of BWC where you stick a bunch of people together - so I get to play vs Brook and Spy while I have Era annoying me on my squad freq ? No thank you. (I think you get the picture by now).

Sorry I still don't understand your point. Can someone who does understand what Crv is trying to say explain it to me?

Splitting leagues will induce squadhopping and weaken the already existing ones, and when a squad named Bram's Little Childrn wins a duelling league it will mean dick because there is no weight behind it, there is no continuity, just random people playing at random new squads in random times.
Ask Bram if you don't believe me, would he rather play vs Space Thumpers and their lineup of Raspi, Colonel, Da1, Izor and Sika (Izor is the random newb in this lineup) or vs Syndicate (version 5.0) or -Final-

I already addressed the squadhopping issue ... it doesn't help if you ignore what I said about that issue. I dunno if the rule I suggested fully solves it ... but feel free to pound it with whatever arguments. Look at what Gig and Vat say about it and my replies to them.

As for 6 games - reason for that is that it's faster getting into playoffs and games meaning something rather then just getting lazy 3 weeks cuz you're already through.
So with todays 16 teams lineup:
-2 groups of 8 teams
-each team plays 6 games according to seeding
-4 best from each group move on to playoffs
-new seeding is made according to group results, wins, +/- score
-1 3 5 7 make group A, 2 4 6 8 make group B
-each squad plays eachother once, in their group
-2 best from each group move into semis
-A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2
-finals

Now I support seperate leagues because there were some ppl who agreed that it was a decent idea. I wanna know how many ppl you think would support 6 games only in a TWL regular season. Again you're ignoring the general consensus of ONE conference. Maybe I misheard but I think almost everyone wants one conference next season and for future seasons.

[Sufficient]

Except your changes are bad ones. You want to split leagues, make it BWC like, encourage squadhopping and take away the one thing which makes people play this dumbshit no good game for so many years
Why not argue for winter leagues, why not push map changes, why not advocate lag restrictions... ? There are plenty of ways to improve the leagues without destroying the essence of it.

Lag restrictions and map changes and more refs ARE A GIVEN. Again you don't seem to be reading my arguments on squadhopping. If you're not going to read them then there's no point arguing with you Crv.

Why not push mp change? I would, but I think things should be taken one step at a time. To you seperation of league may be a HUGE change, but to me it's not that much of a change. I still dunno how I'm "destroying the essence of it" when I'm NOT proposing any rule, setting, or map change. I cn see how you can say that if I for ex. wanted levs to be a part of TWLB ... but you're overexaggeratting when you claim that this idea will RUIN TWL.

[Noah]

Against

[Facetious]

Why isn't "I don't like it" enough reason not to change the rules? Practically nobody wants this change, sure, you have lots of thoughts for why it's a good idea, but if the majority of the TW population is against it you don't have to challenge them to come up with reasons, they just dont like it.

[Sufficient]

Why isn't "I don't like it" enough reason not to change the rules? Practically nobody wants this change, sure, you have lots of thoughts for why it's a good idea, but if the majority of the TW population is against it you don't have to challenge them to come up with reasons, they just dont like it.

My point is that at least when this was first proposed there were ppl who liked it and wanted the change. The second point is that I don't think forums goers are the best way to assess how many ppl want the change to happen. I would think that (estimating) less than 25% of TWLer actually regularly come to the forums ... regularly being reading or posting once a week.

And the frustration stems from the fact that you guys obviously think that TWL can be improved but simply don't wanna do anything about it. You're satisfied with status quo ... which frankly is fine ... as long as it's really what the MAJORITY of TWLers want ... I don't think forum goers is a particularly good measure of that, you may disagree.

Edit: I guess I'll leave it at that. Kim/Neth are in charge and I know that they'll be pretty good with dealing with TWL and TW things whatever happens.

[CrvenBan]

I dunno but you sound like an ass ... "AS, brook, spy, wind, era suck at duel ... and that's what it should be". If you're against players and teams trying out dueling or trying out basing and TRYING to improve then just say so.

I'm not being an ass, you just don't know my relationship with A-S, which is friendly, supportive of them and even e-respectable. I love playing vs them, I love that they are still around as they are, and that means that there are very very few, if even that many, duellers on that squad since they focus on basing. So my point is, A-S wouldn't feel to me as A-S if they had their spid line made of seasonal duellers who just got on the Rub-dubba-dub train for the ride to the Flagtown. Get it ? That is taking away the feeling = bad thing.



Your rules about squadhopping mean shit, because how do you think those half people on the squad will feel if they have to sit around half year and roll their thumbs while not being a part of the action. On top of that, what about all those 2-3 leaguers, you think they wouldn't want to play as well after their league is over. Which means that this thing would efficiently reduce the number of people staying on a squad (active ones), making more people leave = squadhopping. The regular way, if a guy doesn't get to start in an LD and he plays no jav, you can still stick him as a spid in an LB

I cn see how you can say that if I for ex. wanted levs to be a part of TWLB ... but you're overexaggeratting when you claim that this idea will RUIN TWL.

I am all for levis and x's in LBs. I don't see any problem with making it a team choice. In fact, I am up for anything in LB that will promote SKILL once again, rather than lag. I am pro 4-spid rule, pro map change, pro ship tweaking, pro 2 entrances to the fr. Hell, I am pro give-plus-one-second-bonus-to-team-flag-holding-time-for-every-repped-shark-mine. That's how radical I am (for all the stuckup fuckwits: this last sentence is a joke)


How are lag res's and map changes given when no one is talking about it ?

TWL = Squads

Every squad has it's own personality because all the major ones are built by friends, be it irl or e-friends. Separating the leagues would be the same as serving separatley hair from the pussy. The whole point of a hairy pussy is that there are hairs with that pussy. Otherwise, I'd fucking eat out a 12 year old virgin. And I don't care if it tastes the same - it doesn't feel the same.

[Nethila]

dont like the idea:

1) drags on year long.. please keep in mind that there are holidays. any event that drags on year long will eventually die. Even if it's TWL. .?go tourny, ?go duel, even ?go zombie are great examples. BIG BIG hits when they first came out. but after a few months, it dies down. zombies were huge hit when it first came out, 1 ad can attract 70+ people. now? 30? the beginning of any TWEL season makes the ?go duel arena constantly have 30+ people in it, but after a few weeks, 5 people? People lose interests in things that are repetitive and can be accessed everyday. Making TWL year long will just kill the league further more.

2) encourage squadhopping and even less 'loyalty' in squads. "oh, its LJ season and this squad sucks at javs, off i go to some good jav squad."... a few months later.. "oh, its now LD season, but this is only a jav squad, off to a wb squad i go.".. repeat through out the year.

[Epinephrine]

(correct me if I'm wrong but MOST ppl want one conference)

First time I've heard of this... one conference with 16 teams? That would just be a disaster waiting to happen in terms of getting a seasonal structure working properly. Or shall we just start kicking out squads from TWL?

Edit: It's kinda sad that there aren't ppl as passionate about improving TW/TWL ... it's a downer to think that TW is the biggest zone yet doesn't have ppl who are actually interested in thinking about improvements. I mean comon ... I haven't played TW in weeks ... I guess my opinions are not really as "valid" as Mantra or Crv or Vat. Take it as you will ... I'm sure no one else will be arguing for change as much as I am/will. TW continues to be the same regardless and ppl like me will find RSHL AML or Powerball leagues to go to.

I'm all for improving the league. But this idea is a pretty bad idea and I don't like it at all.


1) Different sized rosters depending on time of year = massive squadhopping and decreased squad loyalty. As well, different leagues in different time of year will also increase squadhopping.

Because not every squad plays every league, some people who say want to be on a wb team may quit and join a basing team during basing league. But how about TWD? How will this affect that stability of the wb/jav squads to survive during basing season and vice versa?

Okay, say the rosters for TWD are different yet again for some reason, then squads will be made of people who are really on 'different' teams for all intensive purposes who are suddenly on the 'same' team during TWL games. Sounds pretty stupid to me.

2) Continuous TWL infusion. First of all, things don't run on time as it is. Having things split up isn't going to guarantee that things will run more smoothly at all. League is a huge drain on the energies of the league coordinators (everyone else doesn't really matter). It's the stamina of these people that is most important. Having a year-round league will burn out people. Thus there will be long off-seasons, and you know what? This just means less leagues overall if all you play is jav/wb or all you play is basing as times inbetween each of these leagues will just increase.

3) Squad rivalry. It's fun to have the rivalry and organization that playing in multiple leagues take. It's fun to know that even if you lose to a squad in wb that week you can beat them in basing the next week and it will be a similar lineup (may multileague squads feature similar lineups or at least many similar players in all leagues). Splitting it so far apart decreases the rivalry because you have a lot of time to cool off.

4) TWL overload for players. When there is a TWL game every weekend, it stops becoming special. Sure some other SS leagues do this, but just because they do it doesn't mean it's right. As well, if TWL is only during a certain time, it allows people to focus better. As it is, people already have trouble focusing for a 10-week season... imagine how bad it would be if people had to focus all the time on playing! People would just stop caring altogether except for the 1 or 2 squads that really want to win.

5) I don't like this idea at all.

[Reaver]

The idea mentioned might be a way to improve TWL, but this isn't the way to improve TWL and make the majority happy. I think most would agree doing the following simple things would make TWL much more competitive and fun:

• Make the bots stable. I cant tell you how much it ruins the fun when you've got to replay that TWL match for the third time in a row because the bots keep bailing eight minutes into the game.
  
• Instead of allowing sixteen (minus returning squads) squads per league and having two or three squads completely bailing halfway through the season, just allow twelve into each division. It increases the difficulty to get into each division and decreases the chances of a squad just giving up that position it worked for halfway through the season. I know one of the few downsides to this is that less people get to participate in this fun league, but tough shit. You either want a higher level of competition with fewer people competing or you want a lower level of competition allowing more people to play. I know which one I want, and Im pretty sure I know which one most of the people that would rather not see TWL turn into a joke want.
  
• Start games on time with hosts that have been trained on how to host the game so that if say the bot dies they know to continue hosting or not.

I've been talking about the first two idea's for a long time, this is atleast the second time I've mentioned them on the forums (the first might have been in the staff only sector). I don't recall anyone ever really saying what's bad about these ideas other than the one small flaw I stated above, so Im hoping those in charge of TWL would either point out why these wont work or come up with something better to keep TWL's integrity.

[Sumpson]

Bit too much to read for me, just want to share; I like it.

[Dabram]

i agree with everything epi said. and reaver has a good point about letting in 12 squads max. i personally would like to see fewer squads so in regular season we can let every squad play vs eachother (last season diso never even got to face dice), i hate wasting a sundayevening in which i already know we'll go 3:0 no matter who we put in..
edit: get rid of the mini-tourny to decide who goes through when squads are tied, in those few weeks + replay-week everyone got bored waiting for playoffs to start