A final say on the separation of the leagues

[Doc Flabby]

The english football(soccer) premiership season is one of the most sucessful sports leagues in the world.

The have 3 similtainous competitions.

1. Premiership Cup. All teams in the top leaque play each other twice. Team at the top wins at end of season. finishing in the top 4 gains you qualifcation to the Eurowide compeditions.

2. Carling Cup. Knock out competition for teams in the first 3 divisions

3. FA Cup. The most exciting competition. Knock out competition that includes non leaque and all league teams.

Only a few teams in history have won the "trebel" which is winning all 3 cups.

Now the excitment and tactical play where the managers come in is that the cups run along side eachother. So if a player gets injured or suspended in a premiership game they will be unavaiable for the FA cup game next week.

Now In TWL the excitment comes from all these competitions going on similtaniously. As a manager/captain you need some versitile players who can base and jav to win all 3 leagues. Which makes winning 2 or 3 leagues more of an achivement than it would if the leagues were played separatly.

My changes would be

- Top 8 squads in TWD qualfity for TWL and play a mini leaque, everyone plays eachother once. 3 rounds and 15mins is played. no custom maps.
This sets and keeps the "gold standard" of TWL

However to make thing a bit more interesting and give TWL experience to the squads that didnt quite make it:

- Top 16 squads in TWD qualfiy for the TWLCup. This is a simple knockout competition. 1 round is played/10mins, until semi finals . then 3 rounds and 15min. To ensure the most exciting competion it would be arranged as such etc:

1v9 --!
5v13 --!----|
|-------
2v10 --!----|
6v14 --!

3v11 --!
7v15 --! ----|
|--------
4v12 --! ----|
8v16 --!

allowing everyone to get involved.

- Top 16 squads in TWD and any othersquads that want to enter can enter the TW Cup. draws are pickedrandomly. only 1 round is played for duels and one 3 min timer round (like pub 0). dueling is 4v4 base settings are like a lower pub. so small cloaks and levi allowed. until semi finals then it is 3 rounds for dueling and best of 5 rounds (like in pub 0).

[Sufficient]

Start READING my posts.

1) I have already addressed the so called squadhopping issue. Read my posts again or read below.
2) I'm NOT proposing a SEASONAL thing. Understand that this TWL will still be once a year. Do the math. 3-4 months for TWL ... if we separate TWL into TWLD/TWLJ and TWLB that means 8 months of TWL. NOT 12 MONTHS. 4 whole months of "free" time. TWL can basically last a whole "school year" with summer off or whatever timing you guys want.
3) Bot improvements, more refs, clearer rules etc etc ARE A GIVEN. I'd expect them to get better and better every season. This is towards you Reaver.
4) One conference I believe was backed up by some ppl (or someone with some kind of TW position) in a previous post. I really forget if it was Neth or perhaps someone else? If I'm wrong about this then my memory is shot and I'm sorry. Epi, I believe the majority want 1 conference ... just ask ppl. One conference is sorta a different issue from the idea of separating TWL. So I'm not proposing that they have to or should be implemented together. I think one conference makes perfect sense. Neth brought up issues of more games in the regular season. That is why one conference comes with caveats such as 12 or 14 teams in each league.
5) As for the # of squads to be allowed into TWL. I'm not arguing for any particular #. You guys can decide. I highly doubt it will go lower than 12. 16 seems like it may be a tad too many. I personally believe 14 is a decent # to try for next season, but I really don't care which way it goes.

Hopefully I addressed most of what Epi and Reaver said.

===

Just for those ppl who don't read my posts:

Here is my solution for the squadhopping issue IF TWL is separated into TWLD/TWLJ and TWLB: If a squad plays in multiple leagues (TWLD/TWLJ, TWLD/TWLB, TWLJ/TWLB, or all three), then a player must stay with that squad for that TWL season. A TWL season constitutes TWLD/TWLJ + TWLB. The player may also simply opt not to participate in some of the leagues.

Here's an example:

Diso participates in all 3 leagues of TWL10. Mantra must play with Diso in all leagues (or just play in only some [he can be inactive on TWL roster or simply taken off the TWL roster]). Mantra cannot play TWLB with Diso and then jump to QS and play TWLD with them.

QS participates in TWLD/TWLJ only. Izor is allowed to play both TWLD/TWLJ and if he's invited to Diso, he can play TWLB with Diso (all within one season, TWL10).

PS. I can rehash an entire setup for a make-believe next season if you guys want a bigger picture. Otherwise critique away.

[MousE]

my question is wtf is with europeans and 1v9 and 8 v 16? stupidest shit ever invented lol

[Epinephrine]

2) I'm NOT proposing a SEASONAL thing. Understand that this TWL will still be once a year. Do the math. 3-4 months for TWL ... if we separate TWL into TWLD/TWLJ and TWLB that means 8 months of TWL. NOT 12 MONTHS. 4 whole months of "free" time. TWL can basically last a whole "school year" with summer off or whatever timing you guys want.
Here is my solution for the squadhopping issue IF TWL is separated into TWLD/TWLJ and TWLB: If a squad plays in multiple leagues (TWLD/TWLJ, TWLD/TWLB, TWLJ/TWLB, or all three), then a player must stay with that squad for that TWL season. A TWL season constitutes TWLD/TWLJ + TWLB. The player may also simply opt not to participate in some of the leagues.

8 month roster lock? you serious man? 1/2 the players out there would stop playing or squads would fall apart because they can;t afford to axe anyone or else their roster would be too inactive... you have obviously never ran a squad if you think this is a good idea...

Your point about allowing 'temporary' players to lb or ld/lj rosters, further proves my point about part-time membership in squads and how having a 'weekend roster' is a bad idea that just makes people care less and less about the game.

8 month season still does not get rid of problems of more and more delays between seasons nor does it addres at all my problems with rivalries which I think is the most important factor in all of this.

We have TWD for a reason, to let peopel play all the time... let's not dilute TWL if we can help it.

[Sufficient]

8 month roster lock? you serious man? 1/2 the players out there would stop playing or squads would fall apart because they can;t afford to axe anyone or else their roster would be too inactive... you have obviously never ran a squad if you think this is a good idea...

Epi, you're exaggerating. Yes, for players that play all 3 leagues, they will have to stay on that team for basically 8 months. Tell me how that hurts squads? Tell me how that "encourages squadhopping". My suggestion in a way lessens squadhopping compared to the current setup bc someone who wants to play all 3 leagues must commit to a team for the season (8 months).

As for not being able to ax ppl from a squad ... I don't understand what the problem is. You're going to hafta give me an example Epi. The current setup encourages stagnation both in TW and TWL. You want your "rest" for 8 months of a year? That may be perfect for you. But as I can attest from playing AML and some RSHL, having leagues continous or even semicontinous help a zone stay active. The setup isn't geared for specific ppl and their timeframe. Yes we know you and others wanna win continuous TWLs ... but if you don't have time to play more TWL then just don't play TWL and allow others to win TWL. I don't think we should keep the current setup when there are so many benefits to extending (8 months) and at the same time focusing on each league individually (TWLD/TWLJ and TWLB).

Your point about allowing 'temporary' players to lb or ld/lj rosters, further proves my point about part-time membership in squads and how having a 'weekend roster' is a bad idea that just makes people care less and less about the game.

What is this weekend roster you talk about and this temporary players thing? I have no idea what these are. Give some examples. Seperate leagues means longer commitments to squads yes. Tell me how that is not a good thing. You want flexibility in playing with squads? Well no one is preventing you from playing TWLD/TWLJ with QS for ex, and not playing TWLB. That's only a 4 month commitment to QS. You can squadchange if you like and play TWD with any team. You just can't play TWLB if QS is playing TWLB in the same season.

8 month season still does not get rid of problems of more and more delays between seasons nor does it addres at all my problems with rivalries which I think is the most important factor in all of this.

We have TWD for a reason, to let peopel play all the time... let's not dilute TWL if we can help it.

Tell me how 8 months if one TWL season does not reduce delays or downtime btwn seasons. Again look at the math. I have no expectations that this will go smoothly if it is implemented. There will prob be delays etc ... things will prob not be scheduled in a timely fashion. I think the real reason you think this is a bad idea is because change means work and bugs to iron out. Well lemme tell you this, ANY new idea will have bugs that will need to be worked out.

As for your claim that rivalries will die? How so? You think just because TWL is longer rivalries will die? Well I say they'll be even stronger than before. Both of us really can't say either way how seperate leagues would affect rivalries unless this was actually implemented. Like I said, I really don't think you have anything to base the statement of "a decrease in rivalries". My statement of this increasing rivalries is equally as valid as yours imho.

The advantages still outweigh the disadvantages imo. Don't take this as an offense Epi and other vets, but I think you guys want a "monopoly" over TWL. Having it once a year helps you guys since you only plan on playing TW hardcore for TWL. If we have seperate leagues extending for 8 months you guys would have to be more active. That may be bad for YOU, but it's good for the zone. So I don't think the impetus for you going against this idea should be "I want TWL to fit your schedule bc I only can and want to dedicate 4 months to TW". These are just my feelings about where you guys are coming from.

PS. Take a gander at HZ's RSHL and MSHL for an active and successful league. They've made some good changes over the past few years.

I await the "I'm not going to read this long ass post" that I expect will posted =).

[Epinephrine]

Epi, you're exaggerating. Yes, for players that play all 3 leagues, they will have to stay on that team for basically 8 months. Tell me how that hurts squads? Tell me how that "encourages squadhopping". My suggestion in a way lessens squadhopping compared to the current setup bc someone who wants to play all 3 leagues must commit to a team for the season (8 months).

I didn't say that this would encourage squadhopping. Read what I replied to you in which you quoted.

What I'm saying is that this proves you've never run a squad before.

You want someone to commit themselves for a team for basically 8 months? HAH. You know how hard it is to get someone to even be active for 2 months at a time, let alone have them be active for an 8-month period where they need to be around for 3-league squads?

You think the top squads are too big now by 'stealing' all the talent? Well to ensure that they have enough active players for 8 full months, they will recruit and recruit and recruit until they are absolutely full at the very beginning.

Since you cannot change squads inbetween the 8 months if you're in a multileague squad, that means if your squad had a problem with you and axed you, you're screwed. Or if you didn't like your squad and you leave, you're screwed. Or if your squad suddenly realises there isn't enough active players, they are screwed because they can't correct that problem by recruitment.

It's hard enough now to get people interested in a 4-month season, to get them continously interested in a 8-month season is going to be a huge burden on squad leaders and is going to really harm the league.

What is this weekend roster you talk about and this temporary players thing? I have no idea what these are. Give some examples. Seperate leagues means longer commitments to squads yes. Tell me how that is not a good thing. You want flexibility in playing with squads? Well no one is preventing you from playing TWLD/TWLJ with QS for ex, and not playing TWLB. That's only a 4 month commitment to QS. You can squadchange if you like and play TWD with any team. You just can't play TWLB if QS is playing TWLB in the same season.

In your example, if Izor played for qc for wb/jav, then he could join another squad (I dunno say ... Diso) for basing. Fine that's acceptable. But will the other squad really accept him as a player, because once basing is over he will surely leave again. What will most likely happen is, once basing starts (since more people play wb/jav) you will see a HUGE cherrypicking of all the 'leftover' players by the top basing squads. Then these people will merely show up on weekends to play the basing game, and then ignore the rest of the week.

It hurts squad loyalty when you are creating a systemic reason to squadhop inbetween jav/wb and basing seasons. You are ENCOURAGING people to do this. How does this help squad stability, how does it help encourage strong teams? All it does it is dilute teams by having a lot of 'temporary' players they know aren't really loyal but are ringers for the one league (probably basing).

Tell me how 8 months if one TWL season does not reduce delays or downtime btwn seasons. Again look at the math. I have no expectations that this will go smoothly if it is implemented. There will prob be delays etc ... things will prob not be scheduled in a timely fashion. I think the real reason you think this is a bad idea is because change means work and bugs to iron out. Well lemme tell you this, ANY new idea will have bugs that will need to be worked out.

One of the most important and real complaints against TWL is that it doesn't run often enough. When people are saying this, what they really mean is, their favorite league within TWL doesn't run often enough. Say you are a wb player, it means that TWLD doesn't run often enough. If you are a baser then it's TWLB that doesn't run often enough.

The downtimes inbetween seasons is too great. There is too much delay.

Now use your head and think about it for a second. Do you honestly and seriously think that this system of splitting league will actually do ANYTHING to address this problem? Sure you will have alternating jav/wb and basing, but for a great number of people who AREN'T 3-league players (because you know... they don't actually ENJOY the other leagues...), this doesn't help at all.

Here's what's going to happen IN REAL LIFE. wb/jav season 10 will end. There will be allstar game or whatever. Then there will be 4-8 weeks downtime as TWL Ops recharge, and allow squad rosters to equilbrate to the new basing norm as ringers get recruited inbetween. There will be some sort of new sorting out period to pick eligable squads, and there will be some unexplained delay of another 4-8 weeks yet again. Then basing season starts. It ends, and then you will have an even longer delay (much like the current 6-12 month delay inbetween seasons) as people recharge and do weird things like completely reprogram the bots (as they do every season), redo the website, create new rules and simply get tired of running TWL until new eager Ops can be found.

Because of the fact that you've just split the leagues, you've actually increased the amount of time inbetween a wb season or a jav season or a basing season. This will make a great number of people very not happy.

Your plan does not address exactly how and why there will be less delay inbetween seasons, and has every pointer to the fact that the delay will be even longer.

As for your claim that rivalries will die? How so? You think just because TWL is longer rivalries will die? Well I say they'll be even stronger than before. Both of us really can't say either way how seperate leagues would affect rivalries unless this was actually implemented. Like I said, I really don't think you have anything to base the statement of "a decrease in rivalries". My statement of this increasing rivalries is equally as valid as yours imho.

Yes. Right now, if say Syndicate plays Diso and laughs at them for owning them, perhaps in a few weeks Diso will play Syndicate again in another league and get their just revenge. They will use similar lineups, and for all intensive purposes they will be the same squad (thanks to roster lock).

Under your system, the time to revenge is potentially much further away because the 3 leagues are split. As well, the character of the team will be very different. Over an 8-month period, very different people will be active players. There will be new 'ringers' recruited inbetween. Overall it will not be the same.

It might as well be ancient history what happened, instead of increasing the heated battles.

I don't know if you are a three league player yourself, but a lot of the fun of TWL especially for three league players is the fact that these rivalries exist.

Secondly there is the idea of being a 'triple crown' squad. Or being a squad where even if you lose one league, at least you can win another. Having the ability to play very different types of games and win them all is an awesome feeling and is something that squads actually strive for. Having the ability to lose one but win in another keeps it fun for a lot of squads.

If you split things up, then thanks to the time differences (see my earlier point about delays), it will basically be a different season in everyone's minds. A different roster, different activity level, different group feelings. This is not what makes things fun.

The advantages still outweigh the disadvantages imo. Don't take this as an offense Epi and other vets, but I think you guys want a "monopoly" over TWL. Having it once a year helps you guys since you only plan on playing TW hardcore for TWL. If we have seperate leagues extending for 8 months you guys would have to be more active. That may be bad for YOU, but it's good for the zone. So I don't think the impetus for you going against this idea should be "I want TWL to fit your schedule bc I only can and want to dedicate 4 months to TW". These are just my feelings about where you guys are coming from.

Yes that's true. A lot of vets really do say to themselves 'I will try really hard for 4 months and win TWL'. Very few people can keep that up and it usually turns into 'I will try during playoffs to win TWL' which many can do. Can people really try for 8 months straight? My answer is probably not unless you're some freak or a robot.

Because you can't do that, you will basically lose out on a lot of 3-leaguers who play this game, and hey... some of them are the best players out there in all three leagues. When you do this, competition dies down, and other people will also take it less seriously ('what demonfaze can't play for 8 months straight? You mean I'm going to win TWLD vs syndicate and demonfaze isn't even going to play at all?') and this will HURT the league.

We HAVE a 24/7 league. It's called TWD. We have mechanisms where anyone and everyone can have fun playing all the time.

TWL is not such a thing.

[Epinephrine]

**continued, stupid word limit**

The world cup is only hosted every 4 years because it's just that special. Meanwhile normal soccer leagues are hosted all the time because they are LESS important. The pressure felt during INFREQUENT tournaments which are short enough to gather the sustained attention of the BEST PLAYERS and a great number of spectators is what keeps things interesting. Splitting things up will guarantee that people's attentions will be split.

Basing only people will completely tune out for jav/wb (where now they may watch some games and post about things because it's happening at the same time). Jav/wb people will completely tune out for basing time.

Inactivity periods will go up because people just don't have anything to do and the league delays will increase.

Squads will suffer because they will be SYSTEMICALLY ENCOURAGED to recruit ringers from non 3-league squads. They will also suffer because of an insane 8-month roster lock that does no one any good, especially the squad leaders who will all have undue stress in keeping people active and interested. (note that the fact that ringers may be recruited is not a contradiction to the fact that inactivity will occur. Potentially, there will be squads that really do NOT want to recruit inbetween ringers. As well, during the first week of TWLB or TWLD/LJ they may have okay activity and thus not recruit like mad. Then as the 8 months drag on, they realize they are truely screwed... but now it's much much much too late thanks to further roster locks or because all the 'good ringers' are taken.)

Competition will suffer because of burnout, lack of the best and interleague rivalries, lack of consistant squad rosters, and inactivity for such a long seasonal structure.

The league will suffer, because without interested players, and strong squads, and strong competition what is the point of TWL?

[Mantra-Slider]

wow just wow suff

and what did you mean mouse?

[Reaver]

I didn't even bother reading your posts sufficient because you've managed to miss the same key issue over and over again, what your suggesting might be better in many ways, but if the people dont want it, why the hell would you force it on them?

[Darkmoor]

That was a nice summarization in the end by epi, I can only agree.

[Facetious]

look what you did, you made epi waste a shitload of his time systematically tearing your plan to shreds when all you needed to do was realize that the only person that liked your plan was you, and given up.

[MousE]

i agree with epi and i meant it has been suggested so many times that liek team 1 doesn't play the last place team thats what i meant i dont get why thats so appealing? if u put top better squads facing each other at the start the final rounds will be more boring...

[Cig Smoke]

i agree with epi and i meant it has been suggested so many times that liek team 1 doesn't play the last place team thats what i meant i dont get why thats so appealing? if u put top better squads facing each other at the start the final rounds will be more boring...

Ya they use some stupid kind of bracket that i dont get either. The point of the regular season and gettin #1 seed is to have the eziest path to the finals. Plus if the better team wins then u should have a #1 vs #2 in finals which would be the best game. I dont understand that other system.

Suff: If u dont even play the game why do u feel so passionatly about this idea? I mean it has some good ideas but in general no one else wants to do it. WHy do u keep pushin for it like u are? Why dont you put more effort into the issues that are more important like winter leagues which we been asking for the past how many years.

[froedrick]

There's two problems I see here.

If we have a summer league, people such as myself, won't be able to play. Vacation, work, friends take up the summer months. Some people even go away to work to make the extra buck and aren't really able to play. I know if the leagues in the summer I won't play.

If we have a winter league, people such as myself, might not be able to play every week because of exams and school and that kind of thing. Now I'd still be willing to play during the winter league schedule however, for some people it might be very difficult.

I'm only basing most of this on the average age that I believe plays SS. I know there are some older people who work year round, don't have exams and might not travel. I'd also like to note, I'm not making any suggestions as to what to do. I'm just saying what I think the problem is, and I'll let younger less lazy people think of the ideas for me. Or I'm just stating what has been said time and time again.

[Ricko]

definite no to this idea, TWL should be a winter league and thats it, having a year round competition just ruins what makes twl so prestigious and there would be no system left for squads to work with, 3 league squads wouldnt be able to practice all 3 fields, they'd be concentrating on 1 league for approx 4 months straight then move on to another one for 4 months then another...silly.