Bad job Pascone... bad job...

[Kim]

Well since Nethila has implimented a fix to the problem, it should be noted that it will be added to next season's TWL Rules and procedures for hosts to follow. If the flag was juped in a period of time that doesn't allow staffers to react quick enough, say it jupes at 14:58, I really don't know what we will do then. This problem should be fixed in order for that situation to not occur, because games have turned around like that before.

Re: Metal Headz
Seriously? I mean.....what?

[Nethila]

flag jupe was been a part of basing ever since time race started. and from previous twl seasons, there are numerous incidents regarding flag jupe. So how is saying 'you should know what a flag jupe is" to people participating in TWLB ridiculous? its like the equivalent of saying "you should know about close bomb in jav duels" to people playing in LJ.

your appeal got denied not solely because flag jupe is part of the game. its what happened after the jupe that determined the denial.

your squad basically gave up on cramming yourself by sending 3,4,5 players to the flag, instead of trying to hold the cram properly, or at least with 7 players. It's true, that a 7 player cram is still weaker than a full cram, but it would have done MUCH better than a 4 player cram. You would have held BC out long enough for the juped flag to recover its status and claim it. Like i said in my previous post, if you guys ignored the jupe and held the cram for as long as you can and didnt let BC in, and if BC still won when you are holding the cram, the result of the appeal would have be favouring you guys. The term "flag jupe" alone will NOT determine how an appeal will be decided, we TWL Ops also have to consider the situation, the aftermath, and the result as well.

Also, the attack on pascone is not neccessary. "as a head TWL operator, shouldnt you have some basic knowledge about all 3 leagues?" that argument can go against you and your squad as well. "as a 3-league squad, shouldnt you all have some basic knowledge about all 3 leauges? including basing and flag jupe?" pascone actually did the right thing in passing on the appeal to TWL Ops who know more about basing than he does. Would you rather have a guy who knows only a bit of basing decide on your appeal? or a group of basers who have the knowledges of it to decide it.

[Nethila]

since we are at it, i might as well put out what we have found out about flag jupe.

Ok, here is an explanation of how flag jupe works:

first, what is flag jupe. Flag jupe is when the flag appears to belong to Team A, but the timer is still counting for Team B, and Team A can't get the ticker to work for them no matter what.

This is how flag jupe happens:

During FR fights, usually when one team (Team A) dies out, their shark would mine the flag. A player (Nethila) from Team B would then sometimes ram the flag.. whether its intentionally (a shark without reps want to die) or accidentally. If the mine is really close to the flag, it will appear to everyone else other than Nethila, that he has touched the flag when he rammed the mine due to lags. However, to Nethila, and the bot, the flag switch never happened. So the flag will remain BLUE for Nethila. So ticker will keep on ticking for the other team. When rest the of the Team B found out about it, they would try to touch the flag. This is the important part. Since to them, the flag is already yellow, when they touch it again, to the client AND the bot, no flagswitch will be triggered or registered. The only way to really get the flag is for Nethila to touch the flag when it was still BLUE to him, however, since his teammate touched it already before Neth attached or realized, it is now YELLOW to him as well. So now even if he touches it, nothing will get registered. Until eventually the flag jupe dies, which can take up to a minute.

The ticker on the will change when there is a flagswitch registered by the player who touches the flag, so the only way for flag jupe to end is for the other team, Team A to get back in FR, and touch the flag again, to make things back to normal. HOwever, most of the times, Team B would be in cram right now, and DO NOT want Team A to get in. This is why a *flagreset will do the trick. It will reset the flag, making it blue for everyone, including Team B, so then a member of Team B can go touch the flag and trigger that flagswitch in the bot, and ending the jupe. =)

Hope you guys understand this.. lol

[Epinephrine]

flag jupe was been a part of basing ever since time race started. and from previous twl seasons, there are numerous incidents regarding flag jupe. So how is saying 'you should know what a flag jupe is" to people participating in TWLB ridiculous? its like the equivalent of saying "you should know about close bomb in jav duels" to people playing in LJ.

your appeal got denied not solely because flag jupe is part of the game. its what happened after the jupe that determined the denial.

your squad basically gave up on cramming yourself by sending 3,4,5 players to the flag, instead of trying to hold the cram properly, or at least with 7 players. It's true, that a 7 player cram is still weaker than a full cram, but it would have done MUCH better than a 4 player cram. You would have held BC out long enough for the juped flag to recover its status and claim it. Like i said in my previous post, if you guys ignored the jupe and held the cram for as long as you can and didnt let BC in, and if BC still won when you are holding the cram, the result of the appeal would have be favouring you guys. The term "flag jupe" alone will NOT determine how an appeal will be decided, we TWL Ops also have to consider the situation, the aftermath, and the result as well.

Also, the attack on pascone is not neccessary. "as a head TWL operator, shouldnt you have some basic knowledge about all 3 leagues?" that argument can go against you and your squad as well. "as a 3-league squad, shouldnt you all have some basic knowledge about all 3 leauges? including basing and flag jupe?" pascone actually did the right thing in passing on the appeal to TWL Ops who know more about basing than he does. Would you rather have a guy who knows only a bit of basing decide on your appeal? or a group of basers who have the knowledges of it to decide it.

Saying 'you should know how to AVOID flag jupes' is ridiculous when I've never seen anything talking about that subject before anywhere and I read the boards frequently.

How do you expect us to read your mind in a situation like that? How do we know if we didn't go for the flag at all and just let time run out that you wouldn't have said 'well if you actually tried to touch the flag, maybe we would have gave you the appeal'. It's circular logic you're applying.

Without actually showing that we were making a concerted effort to touch the flag, we could not prove it was juped.

Secondly with 40 seconds left in a game in a panic situation, do you expect us to perfectly coordinate having only 1 person at the flag (or none at all)? Do you really expect ANY squad to be that coordinated? If you really were considering the entire situation, why didn't you consider the fact that we kept control of the juped flag until time ran out, and never let the other team really get it?

Either way, I assume that if any more games this season get affected by jupes the result will be 'too bad it's your fault'. If it isn't, I will be very dissapointed.


P.S., in the future it's common courtesy to tell peopel why their appeals were not granted instead of just saying no, and ignoring the squad when they ask.

[Noah]

I've read this through, and epi is the one comming across with most logic here.

If you analyze what happened from the beginning to the end, there was made alot of mistakes.

When it happened, TWL op Falk were on Syndicates side, he was the only TWL op there. Looks like the decision was taken by someone that wasn't either staff or there at all.

The main argument used against Syndicate is that they should've known about it and prevented it, but epi has already countered that with arguments that make way more sense.

Since I joined Disoblige, or any squad for that matter, I haven't heard anything about flag jupes, I had to wait to I randomly came across it elsewhere. I saw a thread on staff forums, and I didn't even know what a jupe was when I read the thread title.

When no information has been formally passed on the topic, then the staff can't expect anyone to have any formal knowledge about it. Since this is a BUG, and not an INTENDED GAME FEATURE, staff is responsible for making sure that everyone knows about this if they are going to enforce decision as this. What has staff done to inform the public? Nothing, nothing at all.

Btw: Nethila, how do you know that BC didn't mine the flag and repped a syndicate member into it? You weren't there, Falk was, and he agreed with Epi atleast in the beginning.

[Zerzera]

First of all, it's not always mines that cause flagjupes (I think it's supposed to be dupe, I just thought it was written that way when Pasco said it on teamspeak :P). If someone is rushing for flag and gets shot it could also jupe. It's just a sort of lag that other people see the player touch flag in their client and it turns yellow on their client. But the player never touched the flag on his client, thus sends no flagTouched to the server.

I know about this since I was in Camisade, and that was season 6. There's essays about the flagjupe on this forum, so you should know about it.

If an enemy mines flag with only 20 seconds left, and you don't manage to get a shark to repel the mine to let someone get flag, you lost the game. The mine was successful. The standard procedure is that flagjupes are ignored, no matter what they do to the outcome of a game. You have no grounds to appeal, ignorance isn't a argument.

"Our game has to be replayed because our terrier didn't know that when he held the warpbutton too long he would double-warp! We lost flagroom because of this and lost the game! It must be replayed because no one ever told us about this glitch "

[Da1andonly]

I'm still wondering what happened with our appeal though, the one bram talked about - that had nothing to do with a flag jupe.

[Evul Fly]

for reaver, a point that you keep on MISSING is that flag jupes are CAUSED BY your own team, because of THEIR OWN STUPIDITY. Other problems such as bot errors or server dying is out of the player's hands thus they should not be held accountable. Take your head out of your ass and REALIZE THIS FFS. JUPES are caused because of stupid people ramming the mind like idiots. Jupes can be controlled or never really happen if you have smart basers. It is your own fault for your lack of experience in basing thus not knowing how to play the situation. ...

FFS eelam u just lost the bet :/

How its his team fault, its a game bug. Id like to see eelam rushing for the flag and some laggot shark like cig or ph teleporting to flag. Dice juped our flag(heavensents video/ time:16:00) and it took 35s to reset.(no mines involved)

*flagreset

[R1pp3r]

I have never heard of such a thing as a flagjupe before and I’m sure most players haven’t either. I also have to agree with jack that the most obvious or logical thing to do would be to restart the game from the point in time when the flagjuped happened.

[Noah]

First of all, it's not always mines that cause flagjupes (I think it's supposed to be dupe, I just thought it was written that way when Pasco said it on teamspeak :P). If someone is rushing for flag and gets shot it could also jupe. It's just a sort of lag that other people see the player touch flag in their client and it turns yellow on their client. But the player never touched the flag on his client, thus sends no flagTouched to the server.

Further information on jupes, good stuff.

I know about this since I was in Camisade, and that was season 6. There's essays about the flagjupe on this forum, so you should know about it.

There's was a info post posted on staff forums a while back, never seen anything besides that. Where are the essays?

If an enemy mines flag with only 20 seconds left, and you don't manage to get a shark to repel the mine to let someone get flag, you lost the game. The mine was successful. The standard procedure is that flagjupes are ignored, no matter what they do to the outcome of a game. You have no grounds to appeal, ignorance isn't a argument.

As you said above, a mine doesn't even need to be involved. Jupes can happen when players perform intended gameplay, by rushing to get the flag, and they get killed on the way to the flag, but close. If the game then bugs, and gives a team that were only doing what's right a huge drawback, then I'd say that something is pretty fucked up. If the jupe happens due to a mine or not, it's still a bug, and it should not be ignored. Seeing as how few veterans that previously didn't know about jupes, it's arrogant to call everyone else ignorant for not knowing. The public hasn't been properly informed.

"Our game has to be replayed because our terrier didn't know that when he held the warpbutton too long he would double-warp! We lost flagroom because of this and lost the game! It must be replayed because no one ever told us about this glitch "

Yeah, intended features and bugs is the same thing. Way to go with that comparison. :sorcerer:

[Sufficient]

The main point is that nothing can really be done about the jupe problem (from a programming point of view). It's a bug that comes with the current version of continuum. It's been addressed before in TWLB (someone said it was Season 7). Unfortunately it hasn't been put in the rules. Add on the fact that pascone probably could have handled the situation better by explaining things from the start.

The replay won't happen.

[Dabram]

I'm still wondering what happened with our appeal though, the one bram talked about - that had nothing to do with a flag jupe.

Imo Synd's appeal is kinda shitty compared to ours. I remember winning some great games with flag juping (hi zerz), but yeah it should at least be in the rules clearly that a flag-jupe doesn't merit a replay.
I don't like to make a big e-fight over a turned down appeal, since like I said we didn't really prac much this TWL season so we have ourselves to blame more than staffmembers covering each other up. Then again it's kinda wrong that I am capable of some self-criticism but staff refuses to look at themselves as failable. And our loss could now pretty much come to cost us LB playoffs.

Anyway, let me try to hijack this thread to add some more spice to it, this season lacks some fighting anyway, and what's better than to point your arrows at staff, right? This is the appeal I send in on 1 april:

To: TWL Staff

When I was adding our players for our TWLB game vs Mambo I found out I couldn't add Igno <ZH>. Igno <ZH> before he recently got on staff used to be on our TWL roster as Ignominy (he already started in several games for Disoblige and we wanted to start him today). With a minute to spare I found out his box for TWL roster wasn't ticked. I wondered why and checked action history and saw this:
Igno <ZH>'s application accepted by Kim 2007-03-30 19:00:48
For those who don't know, Kim isn't on Disoblige anymore nor was he ever a captain of Disoblige, so the fact that Igno <ZH> wasn't on TWL roster can't be blamed on one of our captains. If it would've been us who accepted Igno's application this would've been different. However as a captain I wasn't even informed by Kim or anyone from TWL staff that Ignominy was now on Disoblige under Igno <ZH>. Nor was I told that I still would've to check his box for TWL roster, which would've been a strange thing since Kim has the powers to manage a squad's roster. And he should've used those powers, in other words, Kim screwed up here by doing half a job.
My next action, since I noticed it wasn't really one of our captains faults, was to quickly add Igno <ZH> to our TWL roster and add him. Then just as the match gets underway, Pure_Luck tells me Igno <ZH> isn't allowed to play. I then have to PM Da1 to see if he is ready to play. I then have to scroll all the way down to find TWL Bot, sub Igno by Da1 and scroll all the way up again to be able to attach to my terrier (scoop). By then we had about lost flagroom, and we had a weaker line in than we wanted which resulted in a loss vs Mambo.
During the game I obviously had no time to discuss this matter with Pure_Luck, so I just did what I was told, and planned to explain it afterwards.
This is how a convo with Pure_Luck goes:

:Pure_Luck:eh.. action history says this: Igno <ZH>'s application accepted by Kim
(Pure_Luck)>weird
:Pure_Luck:so we get screwed over for a staffer messing up???
(Pure_Luck)>well
:Pure_Luck:can i appeal somewhere for a replay?
(Pure_Luck)>probably not
:Pure_Luck:this is kinda serious...
(Pure_Luck)>u should check ur roster..
(Pure_Luck)>same problem we had
(Pure_Luck)>stupid caps
(Pure_Luck)>didn't check roster
(Pure_Luck)>and igno shoulda said somethin
(Pure_Luck)>didn't know kim accepted u

So I then began to explain the entire situation more detailled, like I did in this email, but Pure_Luck pretty much just left after he said those words to me. So this is how a situation like this gets handled? I get called a 'stupid cap' for not checking if a TWL staffer messes with our roster a few days before TWL?
First of all I do not like it when someone who is in a very high rank, who has never been on a squad under my or my fellow captains' guidance calls us 'stupid caps'. We deserve a little bit more respect for keeping a squad alive for this long, I'd think. Especially when it's very clear to see it wasn't our fault. Kim accepted Igno <ZH> to our roster on friday, just one day before TWL weekend. You can't expect from me, Displaced or Desperate to click on 'Manage Roster' every friday just to check out if no TWL staffer had screwed with their roster. (Although I surely will be doing this in the future, since I do not like having to ask for replays as much as you might think).
Secondly why didn't Pure_Luck check who was actually responsible for the fact that Igno <ZH> wasn't on our TWL roster, before forcing us to sub him out.
In conclusion, we wanted to start Igno <ZH> in our TWLB match vs Mambo. Pure_Luck forced us to sub him out. After the game I found out he didn't even bother to check who actually was responsible for Igno <ZH> not being on our TWL roster when he told us Igno wasn't allowed to play. We had a very hectic start, we lost the match. And we do not want to take that loss because a TWL staffer screwed up. And that's why Disoblige wants a replay of our TWLB match vs Mambo.

Sincerely,
Bram

(Oh, please run it over with your awesome spellings- and commars-check mr. Metal Headz, then call us crappy basers)

After a week of wondering if it's even being looked at, I get the same short 'it's been turned down' on the TWL site. After asking for any reasoning, I get send to Pascone. Unfortunately I didn't log it, but he basically turned it down because:
1) Supposedly Igno should've told us captains to still accept him on TWL roster --> This is ridicilous because Kim was well-capable of also ticking that little box that says TWL roster, and he would've had no reason to cause confusion by not doing that. If he wasn't capable of actually helping Igno out completely he shouldn't have done anything in the first place, because there was no way he could have known if we would be able to put Igno on our TWL roster in time for TWL-weekend a day later.
2) The main argument was that good captains check their TWL roster at least every friday before TWL weekend. Not the strongest argument imo, because it raises the question why you would check your roster as a captain in the middle of TWL when as squadcaptains you've done nothing that would change it? Apparantly there is no answer to that question and by asking this to pascone, you just aggrivate him and he'll continue the conversation by calling you bad and incapable captains compared to himself, because it's so easy and logical to just check your roster.
So basically there's an un-written rule that covers up staffers mistakes, and as a squadcaptain you should check your TWL roster at least every friday before TWL weekend, because in the end you're responsible for anything that happens to it, even if it's screwed up by a staffer outside your squad.

Today I still fail to see that logic. Staff: "Oh we screwed up your roster? Well maybe YOUR SQUAD should've checked your own roster to notice that we screwed up a little earlier!"

But yeah like I said, worse then the shitty reasoning to turn down our appeal is the way pascone communicates, he's just an asshole and had no reason to start talking about how he is a better captain in the argument.. you're a TWL staffer, act like it?
Anyway I agree with NN, staff needs to learn how to communicate with the players, or at least the captains. Right now you simply do not show any respect by not even taking the moment to write a response in the same manner as I write my appeal, and instead think it's enough to just leave the squads with a simple 'it's been turned down' on the website. Apparantly in the situation right no there's no reasoning needed from staff to turn an appeal down, plus there is a rule that says: 'There is no appealing a final judgment', which puts you as a captain in an even shittier position.

[Noah]

As long as the uppers are untoppable, and untouchable, they don't have a reason to do a good job, because nobody will smack them for slacking around.

If we could have some sort of elections, where you'd get bitchsmacked off staff for being a retard towards the playerbase, then they will actually have a reason to give a shit.

[Capital Knockers]

I just skipped the second page of this. I mean come the hell on people. This is Epi here, he did it all right. I dont expect staff to go out of their way or even care about squads that act like retards, and purposely abuse the system.

The point is, he's completely in the right. He's also a respected veteran in this game, and should be given a little more credit. I mean you people aren't even challenging what he has to say, your just all going - oh well, it happens, lets not fix it or change anything, lets just make policies and let the players suffer. I mean really, alot of squads dont deserve a replay, but this appeal is so legit it isnt even funny.

People should stop whining about how 'well when our flag juped we didnt get a replay!' - fuck that. Fix it for petes sake, or give the appeal to someone who at least deserves it.

[Zerzera]

Yeah, intended features and bugs is the same thing. Way to go with that comparison. :sorcerer:

You forget that it's what your client sees, you shouldn't rush into the flag. It has to do with the speed and your corpse. Just like a bomb is still a close-bomb after you died.
The real jupe is when someone touches a yellow flag, then the person who 'juped' it cannot claim it either because to his client it's yellow too.
I never juped a flag after I found out about this, it's something you can avoid. So the comparison isn't flawed.

http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?t=10318