10 TWLD squads plz

[Capital Knockers]

Zeebu, Voth, you guys are WAY off here. Voth bud, you're just wrong sorry. I mean you're right in your point that we're going for two opposite things, but the problem is neither can be achieved immediatly. If we lower it to 8 squads without an AML - you're going to have alot of people stop caring, stop playing TWD in general. Let's face it, once again, TWD is Divisions, NOT a league. Change it to TWL, put up a history book, every 6 months jot down the top 5 - then yes you can call twd a league, and TWL could be the TOP League. However until we have something other than TWD, 8 squads could prove suicidal for this zone. Zeebu also had a good point, if the last squad in has a chance at upsetting let em in, if the last squad is NC17, well dont.

Let me put it this way. Whiskeyjack as an example, isn't even really going for pts atm. I just told people to not be stupid, and to try, and if we loose whatever. We were in the 900s a week ago, now we're up to 1200. I know I can get this squad into twl, and through a season, and if I keep the same core of guys, maybe even into the playoffs. Yet with only 8 squads, doubts start to gnaw at me. I could be on plenty of twl squads right now, squads that I know will be in TWL for sure, but I don't. I'd really rather see a new group of people enter TWL and tear some shit up. Think of HEAVY's first season, I bet not all that many people held high hopes for them. Yet they've become a solid player in LD, and now perhaps other leagues. How'd the do that? They got to play some TWL, get some experience.

Voth I don't know who was running this so called AML before, but just because it failed then doesn't mean it would now. I can tell you for damn sure if I was running it, it wouldn't die. If the person running an AML isn't ready for constant dropouts, and other problem associated with newer squads, well they aren't cut out to be running an AML. Of course it's going to be tricky to get started. The first couple Seasons might be messy, scratch that, WILL be messy. That's just the way it's going to be. However, once people realize AML isn't just going to die out, and after a few squads have won it, people will take it more seriously. It's a trade off, if the AML dies after a Season or two, of course people aren't going to care and it'll fail. If they see it survive the struggle, more people will get involved. We take it seriously, eventually, so will they.

[Voth]

Knockers and Exalt: Like I said, in theory, your ideas are good and would benefit the zone. I will not deny that the idea of a successful AML is a good idea for the zone. Unfortunately, Trench Wars (and this game as a whole) is on the decline. I think we can all agree on that. If this was 2003/2004, I'd say hell yeah, make TWL 8 squads and make an AML. That was when our zone population was a steady 500-ish.

Exalt: Just because a squad says it would be interested in participating in an AML doesn't mean that they would be successful in doing so. I am telling you right now, the zone does not have the population to sustain both of these leagues right now, considering a lot of our current population are pubbers who are completely clueless to the ongoings around them (besides pub).

Knockers: I like your optimism, but you won't convince me that at this point in TW an AML would be successful. It just won't.

Why would having 8 TWL squads and no AML be suicidal to the zone? During the entire off-season the zone survives on TWD, so why can't the squads who don't make TWL continue to survive on TWD until they're good enough to qualify for TWL?

You guys have a lot of optimism; unfortunately, a lot of unwarranted optimism. Under better circumstances, your ideas could work. Under our current circumstances, it is doomed for failure.

[Dabram]

I agree with Voth. If there would be a deep playerbase, I'd strongly support an extra lower league or 16 squads in TWL. Hell, I'd raise it to 32 even if we'd have 1000s of people playing. Unfortunately that's not the case..

Increasing the amount of squads we let into TWL doesn't work as a miracle to change this. The bottom squads would just get blown away by the top squads, and drop out like flies every week (like last season). This gives TWL a bad face as well, it should be an achievement to make it to TWL, not something you try for a week, then drop out again and try again with the next newbie-squad you're on. Also for the topsquads it makes regular season quite meaningless, they'll make it to the playoffs no matter what.

However, I think the amount of TWL squads a league shouldn't be decided beforehand, but should be decided by the TWL ops: how many TWD squads do they think are competitive enough to be in TWL. As many competitive squads as there are should be let into TWL. This is of course subjective, however as a lot of players have pointed out with good arguments, for TWLD this number should probably be a little higher than 8, more like 10. For the other leagues I'm unsure if there should be more than 8. However, if possible, yes please!

[Capital Knockers]

I agree with Voth. If there would be a deep playerbase, I'd strongly support an extra lower league or 16 squads in TWL. Hell, I'd raise it to 32 even if we'd have 1000s of people playing. Unfortunately that's not the case..

Increasing the amount of squads we let into TWL doesn't work as a miracle to change this. The bottom squads would just get blown away by the top squads, and drop out like flies every week (like last season). This gives TWL a bad face as well, it should be an achievement to make it to TWL, not something you try for a week, then drop out again and try again with the next newbie-squad you're on. Also for the topsquads it makes regular season quite meaningless, they'll make it to the playoffs no matter what.

However, I think the amount of TWL squads a league shouldn't be decided beforehand, but should be decided by the TWL ops: how many TWD squads do they think are competitive enough to be in TWL. As many competitive squads as there are should be let into TWL. This is of course subjective, however as a lot of players have pointed out with good arguments, for TWLD this number should probably be a little higher than 8, more like 10. For the other leagues I'm unsure if there should be more than 8. However, if possible, yes please!

Well let's leave the AML issue alone for now. Come back to it in a different topic, different time. I'm still all for some kind of AML/system, anything. I agree with you entirely bram, it should be something to strive for, TWL. However I think there are definatly more than 8 squads that are able to compete at a TWL level right now. I've avoided doing this, because I hate it, but let's break it down.

Stray/Thunder in auto yes? + top 5 and 1 more. Well I can say off the top of my head, that Disoblige, Pirates, Paladen, Sweet, dicE are squads that could hold the top 5 spots and get in. Now for that last one - Solstice, HEAVY, Quicksand, Dynasty, Global (Supremecy changed names), Plade, Whiskeyjack, Penetrate, Rape - surely you can for the most part all agree that in that list, you have more than 1 worthy twl squad. I know both Quicksand and HEAVY have played twl-d before and been competition worth having haven't they? If Sirius is serious about Solstice, I'm sure it could hold it's own. I know a fair bit of my guys on WJ have seen some TWL, as have I. I'm pretty sure we can do at least 10. I asked Mirr online if there was any response to this, I was told it's being tossed around, but no formal discussion has taken place yet.

Forgive me but please, DISCUSS! :grin: I'd like to know what staff thinks about this, so I can whole-heartedly agree or argue until I'm blue in the face.

EDIT - pssst, switch diso to the other list for Solstice I guess. You haven't been in the top 5 lately!

[HandofDeath]

switch diso to the other list for Solstice I guess. You haven't been in the top 5 lately!

We're getting there

[DankNuggets]

Last Post on the Matter

Reasons not to keep TWL the way it is:

The less squads you have competing in TWL, the more stacked the squads become. This is pretty evident, and not too controversial. The more stacked the squads become, the less likely they will recruit less skilled players. The fewer lower skilled players on good teams, the fewer lower skilled players that will eventually get to the level of the good players.

Still following me? You're right in the sense that getting beaten 50-0 isn't going to help the lower squad, but if they have one or two players who could help the team go 50-25, then that does help all the players. They aren't getting killed off as fast, and they can learn to team better. It's still a blow-out, but i'm counting on the fact that people do get better, even if it's really slowly. So if they lose all the games 50-25 in the beginning of the season, but then lose them all 50-35 in the end, they've gained some ground. This should be the goal of a league. Why-- because when the bottom moves up, so does the ceiling. You want better competition, don't you? Then don't stick entirely to the existing level, try to raise the bar by rasing the floor (if that makes any sense).

Added to the effect of stacking teams is the almost vertical learning curve for TWL. The existing competition is way over any new player. This turns new players off. I'm not talking about players new to TWD, i'm talking more about players new to TW in general. This is another problem with getting them introduced to the leagues in the first place. If they can get on a decent team, that curve is a whole lot easier to move up on. The more decent teams we can get, the faster the process works.

I'm not saying that the newer people should replace the older people, this is a common misconception with the idea of increased competition. when the newer players come along, hopefully the older players are still above their level. Instead of keeping the # of good people fixed, allow it to expand.

If you keep it at 8 teams, next year it will be 6, then 4, then 3, then TW will be long gone, so it will just be thirty people logging on for 2 months of the year trying to win TWL season 15. How's that for all the critisms of optimissim.

You say that "Stray wouldn't want to show vs. NC-17, ... thus eliminating interest in the league". How do you figure? I guess you think that NC-17 isn't interested in playing either. I guess you figure that 16 teams playing versus 8 teams means less interest? It's actually TWICE the interest. Maybe you'll get bored and quit playing, boo hoo. Just shows how much you really want to play anyway. The top squad would never drop out of the league. Well, I'm hoping no one's quite that arrogant in here.


You say it should be a "premier league". The whole basis for a premier league is to have lower leagues (usually several). TWD isn't a league. There's no schedule, no divisions, no forced match-ups. The only thing it has that even resembles a league is a way of keeping track of scores. Also, the idea of a "premier league" started back when there was a lot more competition. That competition isn't still around (or so i hear, i definitely wan't playing 10 yrs ago), so why is the same philosophy running the league? When you have (quick math coming up, estimates all around) 8 teams of 35 ppl (280) in 3 leagues, you get 840 ppl. Assume several multileague teams, drop it to 600 ppl. Right off the bat that number seem wrong, there's never even that many ppl online. Throw in all the squads that didn't make TWL, adding another 400-600 ppl (once agian all assuming ~35 per squad). That's around 1000 ppl participating in TWD. That's got to be a huge % of the population. Why bother to exclude the rest of the people? If they want to play, let them.

The philosophy of TWL needs to change. Getting into TWL shouldn't be the reward, like it was in the past. I think this is a sore spot to those who qualified in the past, and think it's unfair to "lower" the prestige of playing in the league. The times have changed, and TWL would better suit the commnunity as a large league that incorportated the rest of the population. You still have the exact same prestige associated with winning the title. Just try to move on from the whole "Yeah i got into TWL" and change it to "Yeah i got into the playoffs". It accomplishes the same thing for you, and allows the other people get what they want as well. It's called a compromise.

I have a lot of optimism because I look toward tomorrow, and what it will bring. You have a lot of pessimism because you look at the past and see how it was great. Have hope for the future, hope for the zone.

I'm out.

[Scoop]

However, I think the amount of TWL squads a league shouldn't be decided beforehand, but should be decided by the TWL ops: how many TWD squads do they think are competitive enough to be in TWL. As many competitive squads as there are should be let into TWL. This is of course subjective, however as a lot of players have pointed out with good arguments, for TWLD this number should probably be a little higher than 8, more like 10. For the other leagues I'm unsure if there should be more than 8. However, if possible, yes please!

This post is full of win.

[royCE]

honestly, i dont think twl should have anything to do with bringing new players in.
thats what twdd is for...

if u want to do something for less skilled players is to diverse the power house squads to less skilled squads during the off season and help the players improve like Deez nuts is doing right now with paladen players.

i see 1 skilled guy play with 3-4 other decent warbirds and end up winning most dds because of someone like deez nuts, a leader during a dd basically, givin hope to other guys on squad to do as good as him, which ultimately makes them try harder.

my point is, leave twl to the best and dont mix it in with average skill.

[Sirius]

Lol dude...deez is getting paid to play for them....he won't be leaving come twl

[Exalt]

honestly, i dont think twl should have anything to do with bringing new players in.
thats what twdd is for...

if u want to do something for less skilled players is to diverse the power house squads to less skilled squads during the off season and help the players improve like Deez nuts is doing right now with paladen players.

i see 1 skilled guy play with 3-4 other decent warbirds and end up winning most dds because of someone like deez nuts, a leader during a dd basically, givin hope to other guys on squad to do as good as him, which ultimately makes them try harder.

my point is, leave twl to the best and dont mix it in with average skill.

well then i guess that counts you out of twl royce

[Capital Knockers]

The philosophy of TWL needs to change. Getting into TWL shouldn't be the reward, like it was in the past. I think this is a sore spot to those who qualified in the past, and think it's unfair to "lower" the prestige of playing in the league. The times have changed, and TWL would better suit the commnunity as a large league that incorportated the rest of the population. You still have the exact same prestige associated with winning the title. Just try to move on from the whole "Yeah i got into TWL" and change it to "Yeah i got into the playoffs". It accomplishes the same thing for you, and allows the other people get what they want as well. It's called a compromise.

I really liked that point, hit the nail on the head. You have no IDEA how directly :P

[kthx]

There is a much better way of dealing with this.

16 squads.

At week 6, 8 lowest squads are removed from the league.

At week 9, 4 lowest squads are removed from the league.

At week 10, lowest squad is removed from the league.

At week 11, ranked second and third squads play each other in an elimination match, first ranked gets a skip to the finals playing the winner of 2/3.

At week 12, First place, and winner of the 2/3 play each other as finals.

1. This gets rid of squads that are most likely to dissolve earlier in the TWL season.

2. This lets more squads play, that way newbie squads will still get to play in twl for at least six weeks.

3. This gives people a reason to get into first place.

4. This makes any games after week six more interesting to watch, since it is down to the final 8. And makes games after week 9 much better also.

5. Instead of tie-breakers based on squad K: D ratio, round robin tournaments for three-way ties or squad vs squad elimination matches could be used, which would be great entertainment for people, and would further promote TWL.

To make sure that each squad has a fair chance at hard games and easy games in the competition, we have a panel of judges who rank each squad based on the players they have entering TWL, and give each squad in each league a point value of 1-4, one being the hardest, four being the easiest.

Squads ranked 1, would play ranked: 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1.

Squads ranked 2, would play ranked: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2.

Squads ranked 3, would play ranked: 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3.

Squads ranked 4, would play ranked: 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4.

This way, every squad has hard and easy games, but at the same time, not too many as usually happens early in the season that makes most lesser squads dissolve too quickly to make it till week 10. So this will not only help as far as cutting 4 weeks out of dissolving squads schedules, but also from making them dissolve within the six weeks.

[raizin]

Knockers and Exalt: Like I said, in theory, your ideas are good and would benefit the zone. I will not deny that the idea of a successful AML is a good idea for the zone. Unfortunately, Trench Wars (and this game as a whole) is on the decline. I think we can all agree on that. If this was 2003/2004, I'd say hell yeah, make TWL 8 squads and make an AML. That was when our zone population was a steady 500-ish.

Exalt: Just because a squad says it would be interested in participating in an AML doesn't mean that they would be successful in doing so. I am telling you right now, the zone does not have the population to sustain both of these leagues right now, considering a lot of our current population are pubbers who are completely clueless to the ongoings around them (besides pub).

Knockers: I like your optimism, but you won't convince me that at this point in TW an AML would be successful. It just won't.

Why would having 8 TWL squads and no AML be suicidal to the zone? During the entire off-season the zone survives on TWD, so why can't the squads who don't make TWL continue to survive on TWD until they're good enough to qualify for TWL?

You guys have a lot of optimism; unfortunately, a lot of unwarranted optimism. Under better circumstances, your ideas could work. Under our current circumstances, it is doomed for failure.

Last year during TWL, zone population was in the 600's on match days.

If you have a AML and give the "non-premier" squads something to look foward too, they will show up.

Saturdays zoners:
TWLD1 Thunder vs Stray
TWLD2 Pirates vs Heavy....

then Sundays
AML1 NC17 vs Rejected Basers
AML2 Rape vs Serenity

With all the new staff hosting WW3 on tuesday nights, i really dont think there is a shortage of people reffing these matches.

People will show up. Its something to look foward to. Someone earlier said zone population is dying, well maybe its because people know they will never get on the premier squads, never compete in a big tournament, and lose interest in this game. The only squads really being rewarded are people playing 3/12 months of the year. At least a AML would give the rest of us something to talk about and look foward to since we play 12/12 months.

[Da1andonly]

as long as the twl is on sundays and aml or whatever is on saturdays

[eelam <tw>]

re

woudnlt mind having an AML league that runs on saturdays, as long as it doenst conflict with TWL matches in any way im all for it!