TWL Update Thread

[Dwopple]

save it for next season, give us an entire offseason before you throw this at us. like you did with the blocks....also with blocks, you let us have a poll to decide.

AFTER this TWL season, implement the 2 terr idea for awhile, THEN let us have a poll to decide if it should be for TWL as well, or to abolish it all together

[pascone]

i was afk when most of the meeting happened, winning twddrtetd or whatever it was called


but i pretty much agree with stabwound. often (not naming any names, so don't get all offended) people get power hungry and make drastic changes with limited information and pretty much do it on their own whim (i'd give another example, but staff will yell at me for being honest again)

for the record, i believe i've already said somewhere that 8 should have been the way to go for twld. generally the people that want more than 8 teams, are the fringe squads that just want to get into twl and try to make some noise. the better squads (we all know who they are) don't want as many because playing the extra games is typically a waste of time

as for two terrs... well.. certainly would have asked many people about this

[Sirius]

I'm not sure what TWLD squad captains you spoke to but It feels like yet again someone in staff took the whining on the forums with not enough salt and here are the rest of suffering for it again. I can't tell you how many changes I've seen over the past couple years within the zone where an over-zealous group of people came onto the forums and whined about it and it seemed as though it was the right decision but in reality not all of us use the forums and not all of us check them often enough to hop on and complain about possible changes.


Also, you're basically seeing in this LB discussion thread similar reactions. You have people threatening to not play (entire squad(s) even) for this LB decision, it's the same thing though, they have something that they enjoy and you're essentially threatening to take that away. Again, I'm not saying 2 terrs is a good or bad decision, just that it's directly similar to the change in TWLD. I just hope that we can learn from our mistakes in the past, how many more seasons to people need to endure where the last couple of squads to get into TWLD were extremely lackluster, get trampled all over and drop out of the league? You were spot on with your judgment of 8 squads for TWLD and yet you allowed the forums to sway you, please look to the past to see the results of similar decisions. Just because the majority might feel one way or the other doesn't mean that they're right. You were put into that position because someone felt you had the ability to make conscious, well-thought decisions, not so that you could hold open polls on the forums. - Reaver

Reaver hit the nail on the head again, and like he said, he didnt even want to come here and talk about it, but just like him there is a great amount of players that believe the same thing but don't necessarily want to, or have to say anything.

But again, the only person I usually see ever even dispute this everywhere like clockwork is Capital Knockers, who of course, runs a squad of the much lower caliber which could possibly be threatened to not have chance at TWLD at all. Which only fuels Voth or whoever's idea that he's just up for giving his squad a chance at TWL, but in all reality, those squads aren't meant for our 'premiere' league; maybe something one shorter, but higher than TWD, but that's still another story. Like Reaver said, TWL is about competition, not blowing out squads and waiting for playoffs finally, hoping 2 of the 3 squads there will be challenging.

If you really think it's going to make things that easy - how bout a little less talk and a little more winning LD? - Capital Knockers

I don't have to win LD to sweep through rows of Whiskeyjacks and Deadly Divas before getting to the serious eliminations or whatnot. Not sure why your fallacies are supposed to undermine my point.

years ago squads like elusive, light, rampage didn't give a rat's ass about playing squads that are ranked number 6-8 - Jones

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Years ago your typical 'TWL Scrub Squad' like No Surrender that would go 2-10 would wipe out most of the TWDD ladder squadss save the 3-5 current top squads, had it existed today, because it was still a powerful squad but compared to the other squads back then it was nothing.

Let's go back halfway through TWL's life and look at season 6's TWLD Roster -

Melee, Disoblige, Sk8, Egyptian, Solstice, Light, No Surrender, Supremacy

Rampage, Pallies, Elusive, Shriek, Value, Dragonguard, Cripples, British Squad

Out of those 16 squads, your argument is Elusive/Ramp etc didn't care to play the squads in 6th-8th place...what would that be Sk8, Value, Dragonguard, Egyptian ???? All those squads would decimate the ladder nowadays, so of course they wouldn't mind playing them. Back then to get into a fight with a crappy squad of no goodness you had to fight someone in like the 20th spot in TWD. I think you get the point I'm getting at.

By the way, it's not 'just 2 more squads' that we are talking about here that is the problem. The problem is, the staff's 'intended desire' to bring new players into TWL too is already dangerously stretched with 8 squads as there isnt even THAT many true TWLD squads right now..especially with the dissolvement of Stray and Dice losing all it's WBs...we have what, Pirates, Solstice, Quake, Thunder? That leave 4 WHOLE spots open for that 'potential players' spots. To add 2 more to that...thats 6 spots, or more than HALF of TWL would be 'up and potential for TWL' squads, and less than half actual TWL caliber squads. It doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.

[Dabram]

someone explain to me how the 'twl is only 1 month away, we didn't even have time to test it out'-argument is defending your point of view? as if you'd actually would've voted for 2 terrs 3 months ago...
it's coming from the same people who are clearly against anything but 1 terr, 2 sharks + 5 spiders. so it's not like you would've tested it out at all, just like you've never tested playing with 1jav+1wb. so don't use bullshit arguments.
in fact; you're actually in advantage that you can't even practise 2 terrs yet; it's even less likely anyone will use it.

and to be honest; even disoblige with a crazy euro in charge wouldn't seriously think about using 2 terrs. (and it's not even likely we're gonna be getting into twlb anyway, so the only 1wb+1jav squad will be gone as well so it'll just be 5 spids-squads, none of you should even care about these changes.. unlimited shipchanges, unlimited uses of ships, who cares? you'd all just use 1terr,2sharks,5spids.. so why all the drama)

as for 2 terrs; i've never seen much advantages in it. it takes too much communication to make it work. sharks/spiders need to know exactly who to attach to at every death, plus sharks would need to know from eachother as well.. this would require a whole team of people in spec pm'ing the players in game.. something way too advanced and something we'll never see in this game.. so it's not gonna happen.

only way i could see some squads using 2 terrs is at start:
start with 2 terrs --> one dies --> immediately change to spider (or w/e ship). (you have 6 changes now anyway)
this could be useful for squads who have either a weak spiderline or 5th spider, or a weak terr.
logically one terr could try to start very aggressive and use his portal immediately to try and burst near the nme terr and get him out of position or to use his portal early in the fr-fight.. then again; you'd need 2 terrs that are equally skilled; so you don't end up changing your better terrier as he dies first to spider and getting punished for that later on..


ps. to knockers; last season wasn't 16 but 12; which was too much to make twl a competitive league.. the better squads didn't have to try at all during the regular season to make it to the playoffs.. and there were way too many replacementsquads every weekend.. that's just not how TWL should be, it has to be something to try and work up to.
pps. a month ago it looked like 10 squads would be competitive for ld; right now i think 8 would be better, even my squad managed to get into top 7 within 2 days. that's insane we have 6 decent wbs at most of which half are rusty as fuck. i can't say i totally mind though..



ppps. jeen please give up on making it to twlb; my squad needs sharks baaaaaaaaaaadly!!

[Jeenyuss]

i wanted to reply to this last night but my internet cut out. i like the fact that you're taking initiative, mirrorrim. my only complaint, like a lot of other people's, is that one month is a very short amount of time to come up with a whole new style of play. i understand pl and other moderators who don't understand the concept of change got in your way of implementing this into twd, but something has to be done immediately if we're actually going to have 2 terr limits for twl.

as for the logistics of making the terrier more useful, maybe you can decrease the bty required to attach to other terriers, just a thought.

[Jones]

Jones: I don't know if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing but if you think that there's only really 4 competitive squads then you'd at least agree that 8 squads qualifying is better than 10 squads qualifying.

now why would i do that? if i wanted twl to be competitive i would not invite the other 4 squads because they simply arent good enough. whoever else be it 4 or 6 squads add up to the enjoyment and give newer, less skilled squads something to strive for, years ago squads like elusive, light, rampage didn't give a rat's ass about playing squads that are ranked number 6-8... well now those people who are left in this dying game are ranked somewhere in the top 3 hopefully.

[royCE]

pretty sure the rule doesnt say YOU HAVE TO have 2 terrs...

this will be treated the same as 5 v 5 where u rather have 3 spids a shark and a terr instead of 2 spids and 1 jav or warbird.

option is there but noone will use it unless someone further down the road discovers the use of 2 terrs...

i think 2 terrs is a great idea because it will cause more ship changes during basing between 2 players.

in LB, im pretty sure lineups will be exactly the same from start to finish with the same people in the same ships

however

now that u have 2 terrs, people might be forced to switch ships depending on if their attacking or defending the flag.

i know i dont have the creditability of judging a basing match but i know a good thing when i see it.

that being said, captains who are afraid of change and adaption will keep things as it is, and more gutsy captains will try out the new possibilities and hopefully get rewarded for it, as they should.

o/

[Reaver]

Correct me if I'm wrong; I didn't play last season, weren't there 14 or 16 squads in TWLD? I'm all for making TWL more competitive, but if people are going to not play a season when the squads have already dropped by 4-6, then they're just being a little too picky don't you think? Wouldn't it be fair to at least try 10 squads, rather than slicing 16 in half entirely? Either way, it's still less than last season, maybe 10 will actually work out fine? I don't see why people who've played this game for a long time, would actually not play over having the LD squads brought down from 16 to 10, rather than 8. You're gaining more than middle ground here. No matter how much you disagree with it being brought up from 8 to 10, this community has put up with alot worse concerning TWL no?

People said the same things in season past but season after season they just don't learn. Well I came and said what I had to say, I'd rather have said nothing but at least that way someone can't say that there wasn't any opposition to this idea.

Jones: I don't know if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing but if you think that there's only really 4 competitive squads then you'd at least agree that 8 squads qualifying is better than 10 squads qualifying.

[Capital Knockers]

I'm not sure what TWLD squad captains you spoke to but It feels like yet again someone in staff took the whining on the forums with not enough salt and here are the rest of suffering for it again. I can't tell you how many changes I've seen over the past couple years within the zone where an over-zealous group of people came onto the forums and whined about it and it seemed as though it was the right decision but in reality not all of us use the forums and not all of us check them often enough to hop on and complain about possible changes.


Also, you're basically seeing in this LB discussion thread similar reactions. You have people threatening to not play (entire squad(s) even) for this LB decision, it's the same thing though, they have something that they enjoy and you're essentially threatening to take that away. Again, I'm not saying 2 terrs is a good or bad decision, just that it's directly similar to the change in TWLD. I just hope that we can learn from our mistakes in the past, how many more seasons to people need to endure where the last couple of squads to get into TWLD were extremely lackluster, get trampled all over and drop out of the league? You were spot on with your judgment of 8 squads for TWLD and yet you allowed the forums to sway you, please look to the past to see the results of similar decisions. Just because the majority might feel one way or the other doesn't mean that they're right. You were put into that position because someone felt you had the ability to make conscious, well-thought decisions, not so that you could hold open polls on the forums. Also, if it seems as though I'm attacking you, I'm not, I still think you're doing good for the most part.

Correct me if I'm wrong; I didn't play last season, weren't there 14 or 16 squads in TWLD? I'm all for making TWL more competitive, but if people are going to not play a season when the squads have already dropped by 4-6, then they're just being a little too picky don't you think? Wouldn't it be fair to at least try 10 squads, rather than slicing 16 in half entirely? Either way, it's still less than last season, maybe 10 will actually work out fine? I don't see why people who've played this game for a long time, would actually not play over having the LD squads brought down from 16 to 10, rather than 8. You're gaining more than middle ground here. No matter how much you disagree with it being brought up from 8 to 10, this community has put up with alot worse concerning TWL no?

[Stabwound]

It's great when random players can join staff and rise up the ranks to the point where they can arbitrarily make major changes to TWL as they please.

Allowing two terrs is perhaps not a bad idea in itself, but just throwing it out there right before TWL is stupid. It would have been better to announce this months ago and let it be allowed it in TWBD, although I'm sure people would have complained just as much.

p.s: I believe ship lineups would ideally be completely unrestricted, but taking into account how ancient the netcode is in Continuum and the way lag is handled, it's probably not feasible if you want to avoid having the game become a complete clusterfuck.

[sarger]

A bit radical.... to be honest though I dont see any team that would consider using a second terr in their strategy. I can see two main reasons for using two terrs:

1. You're more likely to survive in fr..but lets face it at the same time youre also likelier to get cornered.

2. The extra burst, I can imagine the second terring being used as a kamikazi, rushing forward at the appropriate moment and bursting, but then again using a jav is probably more effective than this..seeing that if the second terr dies it wont be able to attach.

I've never been a fan of the jav nor the wb so I may be a bit biased when I say that I dont believe this change will bring any more excitement to the game, at best it'll bring slight confusion..

[Jones]

I'm not sure what TWLD squad captains you spoke to but It feels like yet again someone in staff took the whining on the forums with not enough salt and here are the rest of suffering for it again. I can't tell you how many changes I've seen over the past couple years within the zone where an over-zealous group of people came onto the forums and whined about it and it seemed as though it was the right decision but in reality not all of us use the forums and not all of us check them often enough to hop on and complain about possible changes.


Also, you're basically seeing in this LB discussion thread similar reactions. You have people threatening to not play (entire squad(s) even) for this LB decision, it's the same thing though, they have something that they enjoy and you're essentially threatening to take that away. Again, I'm not saying 2 terrs is a good or bad decision, just that it's directly similar to the change in TWLD. I just hope that we can learn from our mistakes in the past, how many more seasons to people need to endure where the last couple of squads to get into TWLD were extremely lackluster, get trampled all over and drop out of the league? You were spot on with your judgment of 8 squads for TWLD and yet you allowed the forums to sway you, please look to the past to see the results of similar decisions. Just because the majority might feel one way or the other doesn't mean that they're right. You were put into that position because someone felt you had the ability to make conscious, well-thought decisions, not so that you could hold open polls on the forums. Also, if it seems as though I'm attacking you, I'm not, I still think you're doing good for the most part.

I'm not quite sure where you are getting this... a few seasons ago there were 50-19 scores, i doubt there ever will be such blowouts again.

If you really want to get picky and count lineups I would suggest lowering the squad limit to 4, but that would be insane.

Right now there are 33 wb squads on ladders, and about 9 or so competing within their own "level", out of the 9 there are about 3-5 who have overwhelming lineups compared to the rest. the competition between the rest is pretty entertaining though. also if dice gets their wbs back which i believe they will we have yet another squad.

So again I am unsure why there is so much hate against 10 squads. Skill? as i mentioned earlier there are 3-5 squad who are able to defeat any other and are winning and losing back and forth vs. each other if we compare to starters/depth and so on, imo.

as for old players not coming back... i don't really get that part either, competition has gone downhill as the playerbase has decreased. for years this has happened and will continue in this pattern unless some miracle happens.

Anyway. Here is a post worth reading again:

However, I think the amount of TWL squads a league shouldn't be decided beforehand, but should be decided by the TWL ops: how many TWD squads do they think are competitive enough to be in TWL. As many competitive squads as there are should be let into TWL. This is of course subjective, however as a lot of players have pointed out with good arguments, for TWLD this number should probably be a little higher than 8, more like 10. For the other leagues I'm unsure if there should be more than 8. However, if possible, yes please!

also maybe people overlooked this but if we do let these good for nothing squads in we might look at this proposal:

There is a much better way of dealing with this.

16 squads.

At week 6, 8 lowest squads are removed from the league.

At week 9, 4 lowest squads are removed from the league.

At week 10, lowest squad is removed from the league.

At week 11, ranked second and third squads play each other in an elimination match, first ranked gets a skip to the finals playing the winner of 2/3.

At week 12, First place, and winner of the 2/3 play each other as finals.

1. This gets rid of squads that are most likely to dissolve earlier in the TWL season.

2. This lets more squads play, that way newbie squads will still get to play in twl for at least six weeks.

3. This gives people a reason to get into first place.

4. This makes any games after week six more interesting to watch, since it is down to the final 8. And makes games after week 9 much better also.

5. Instead of tie-breakers based on squad K: D ratio, round robin tournaments for three-way ties or squad vs squad elimination matches could be used, which would be great entertainment for people, and would further promote TWL.

To make sure that each squad has a fair chance at hard games and easy games in the competition, we have a panel of judges who rank each squad based on the players they have entering TWL, and give each squad in each league a point value of 1-4, one being the hardest, four being the easiest.

Squads ranked 1, would play ranked: 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1.

Squads ranked 2, would play ranked: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2.

Squads ranked 3, would play ranked: 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3.

Squads ranked 4, would play ranked: 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4.

This way, every squad has hard and easy games, but at the same time, not too many as usually happens early in the season that makes most lesser squads dissolve too quickly to make it till week 10. So this will not only help as far as cutting 4 weeks out of dissolving squads schedules, but also from making them dissolve within the six weeks.

Conclusion:
-only about 4 squads are good enough for twl
-good luck having a season consisting of 4 squads (and future seasons)
-if you let more squads in, eliminate them earlier

edit: i dont really like the 2 terr thing either as i mentioned before but i wonder why people who were so adamant on proving how 5 spiders is THE ULTIMATE LINEUP OF DOOM are so worried. also as jack pointed out, i also hate the random repped bursts with passion. and fu if you are so bad that you cant come up with good strategies within a month, do you suck or what

[shayde]

u people always come out swingin instead of adding your 2 cents.

2 terrs is an interesting idea, tho i agree it should have been tested more. Staff obviously didnt help her in her testing so she implemented it. I think this thread should have been put up before implementing it but thats my opinion. Either way i doubt it will be used unless a squad really feels like losing a twlb so everyone take a deep breath and calm down cause this aint goin to affect your twlb games.

[eelam <tw>]

re

Just take out 2 terrs, the shipchanging idea was very good i think it shoudl be changed to unlimited, allows people to chang eto wb to slow down terrs coming up good change of pace and makes getting a TD that much more important :P think about it

[Voth]

I don't mind the idea of opening up ship possibilities in LB, but I do agree with the others that it should not have been sprung on us like this.

The problem is that TWL is about a month away from starting, and even if you implemented this in TWBD right now, no one would have adequate time to figure out a decent strategy/gameplan using two terriers.

I agree that this should be put off until next season; the cram-block removal has made boring old 15 minute cram games a lot more interesting with long fr battles, and that was drastic enough for many. I don't think something like this should be sprung on everyone with a month before TWL.

I'm not exactly sure what happened with the testing in ?go base and all of that, but let's just be honest here: this league runs for the players, and from what I can see, most of the players are in disagreement with this (and many of them are noteworthy, respected basers). I don't think this idea should be scrapped, but I do think this should have been brought up to the public four months ago, and tested four months ago in base and TWBD. The point is, just because a bunch of smod's think it's a great idea doesn't mean it should be implemented if there is a huge player opposition to it; after all, this league is not for the staff, it is for the players.