TWL Update Thread

[Dwopple]

rephrase it a little

you are not being forced to play a lineup with 2 ters.

you are being forced however to play against a lineup with 2 ters (if that squad chooses to)

thats it.


i also agree that the idea has been dumped on us rather late in the game, but at least we have some time now to see how it will affect us.

chances are squads will try it and for the most part, suck at it beyond starting with that extra burst.

i challenge everyone who is griping about the 2 ter option to first go try it once before arguing anymore. (i hope to this evening)


in my opinion, the only reason it will be terrible/useful in the short term is for the random extra bursts that will be flying around everywhere. it has the potential to create some additional strategy, but we dont have a whole lot of time to explore before twl starts (but at least we have some). what it definately will do is add some random chaos to flagroom fights. i would say those are usually chaotic enough and an extra burst from each squad will really just be annoying and bring a large luck/lag factor into it.

in the flagroom, a lucky burst can really equalize the playing field. that isnt always a good thing.

but just to say it again, id liek to at least see how it works first hand before i go apeshit over it. the rest of you should do the same.




concerning the 10 twld teams, i dont really have an opinion on it. i would say they probably werent needed, but i dont think it will completely ruin twl either. there will just be the probability that a couple more curbstomps will occur.

just keep in mind, at least its less than last twl's (which was 12 and pretty sad)

most of the counter arguments about why to keep it are about options are they not?

well the majority of people dont want 2 terrs, yet we are still FORCED to play against it....thats not an option....

youre right we arent forced to use it, but we are forced to play against it, thats still changing the entire style of playing...i dont see any options about it for the people who dont want to bullshit around and play a team with 2 terrs..

[Zeebu]

also for all you queers talking about 'youre not being forced to play it' 'its an option' well:

we are being forced to play this kind of basing (mirror just said it was put in BASE and TWBD)

and if its an option, why not put it in base2 or make some other league where players actually WILL have the option to play it or not. instead of forcing it on us and just throwing it out there with no details or anything. there was no warning to this change, it was literally done overnight without poll or MAJORITY public opinion. and if you did ask alot of people, who exactly? im getting the feeling many people who havent won an LB title in a long time (disoblige) were the ones asked.

rephrase it a little

you are not being forced to play a lineup with 2 ters.

you are being forced however to play against a lineup with 2 ters (if that squad chooses to)

thats it.


i also agree that the idea has been dumped on us rather late in the game, but at least we have some time now to see how it will affect us.

chances are squads will try it and for the most part, suck at it beyond starting with that extra burst.

i challenge everyone who is griping about the 2 ter option to first go try it once before arguing anymore. (i hope to this evening)


in my opinion, the only reason it will be terrible/useful in the short term is for the random extra bursts that will be flying around everywhere. it has the potential to create some additional strategy, but we dont have a whole lot of time to explore before twl starts (but at least we have some). what it definately will do is add some random chaos to flagroom fights. i would say those are usually chaotic enough and an extra burst from each squad will really just be annoying and bring a large luck/lag factor into it.

in the flagroom, a lucky burst can really equalize the playing field. that isnt always a good thing.

but just to say it again, id liek to at least see how it works first hand before i go apeshit over it. the rest of you should do the same.




concerning the 10 twld teams, i dont really have an opinion on it. i would say they probably werent needed, but i dont think it will completely ruin twl either. there will just be the probability that a couple more curbstomps will occur.

just keep in mind, at least its less than last twl's (which was 12 and pretty sad)

[PjOtTeR]

The only reason I dislike javelins is because the only ones that are considered "good" are the players that abuse lag and the bug with rockets+repels. Against an evenly matched team, a warbird is mostly irrelevant, and so is a javelin that doesn't abuse the fuck out of lag. I'd ask to be named a "good" javelin that doesn't do this, but unfortunately, that's impossible.

In responce to that... can you name me a "good" spider that doesn't do that? unfortunately that is impossible aswell.
I hate when sharks get hit by 9 bullets without repping any of em, and still survive and are able to bomb. Those are also the "good" sharks....
I hate it when Terrs eat 129832109 of bullets and dont die or get a burst every other 5 seconds or get 8 portals in a minute, in conclusion that are also the "good" Terrs.

When I shark and sit still in a corner certain people I can just rep, while others shoot a bullet through my rep every other bullet, when I spider I can shoot through certain sharks reps every other bullet while others even seem to rep 3 bullets after a sharks rep has long worked out on my screen and every other person screen.

Sure javs use their lag just like every other ship and yes every person has lag. When someone rockets of a rep to create insane speed, it's also pretty obvious when to rep, so that shouldn't be a problem at all.
In other words I can name as much 'good' javs abusing lag as much as any other 'good' pilot. Starting with: C0ckthrobbing Queen

[Sirius]

true 5 or 6. Dice being 1 of them. And I was not asked - megaman89

ROFL are you kidding me? You weren't even asked? Wow, that just makes me wonder all the more who these '2-4 past TWL' squadcaptains were that said Yes to 10 squads considering I know I said no and I am one of those 2-4.

Aside from that, there's this point Mirrorrim makes that 'the top of the ladder asked for 10'. You do realize at the point you were asking, it wasn't even close to the end of qualifications, and even those 'top 8' squads would shuffle around and dissolve like 5 times over? Therfore it would be pointless to say 'they will be the ones playing blah blah'. Consider this - a squad like Deadly Divas plays Syne or something 10 times in a row and gets into 5th place temporarily while you go prowling the top 16 or w/e squads..of COURSE they will say yes because they know they won't last in top 5 for very long...and you call this an accurate means of voting?? And I know this happens because we played a weaker jav squad numerous times and it got us 5th in JD ladder pretty easily.

Not to mention Pascone just blew your logic out of the water...you asked 16 squad captains to vote...granted when the voting started the squad amount was 8...for that moment more than half of the squads you were asking were not going to get into TWL...that means over 50 % of the answers would be bias towards better chances of getting in whether the squads were in the top of the ladder or bottom at the time. And yes you could throw in the fallacy of "BUT WHEN I TOOK VOTES IT WAS THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR LOGIC!!!", but that doesn't somehow make the voting process fair or legitimate to have been considered in the first place.

And you're telling me all the 'lower' squads thought they weren't good enough for TWL and wouldn't want to be able to get in? Wow I never knew we had such humble-hearted charitable players amassed in this zone.

Sirius: you sure like to ignore all the facts, dont you. I asked top 16. I paid attention to the squads highest on the ladder. Even more attention to past TWLD squads. ... want a surprising fact? The squads lower on the ladder voted for 8, they thought they werent good enough. The squads highest on the ladder thought 10 was good. Since they are the ones actually playing against these 2 extra squads, I will pay attention to them. - Mirrorrim

I honestly am starting to lean towards thinking you are bullshitting at this point. Dice's cap mega wasn't asked it is verified now, even if there are 'other' dice caps that would be favoring towards certain caps if you only asked 'certain' captains on top squads and it's not even confirmed whether they were asked, and so far I havent heard of any 'past TWL caps' or 'Top ladder squads' saying they voted for 10. Either way, my initial paragraph up there to you underlines how 'top ladder squads' voting for it was flawed anyway.

[Dwopple]

also for all you queers talking about 'youre not being forced to play it' 'its an option' well:

we are being forced to play this kind of basing (mirror just said it was put in BASE and TWBD)

and if its an option, why not put it in base2 or make some other league where players actually WILL have the option to play it or not. instead of forcing it on us and just throwing it out there with no details or anything. there was no warning to this change, it was literally done overnight without poll or MAJORITY public opinion. and if you did ask alot of people, who exactly? im getting the feeling many people who havent won an LB title in a long time (disoblige) were the ones asked.

[Zeebu]

Edit: 2 terrs are now allowed in TWBD and ?go base. Feel free to try it out and lemme know what you think. If at the end of next month (before TWL), people still think it should be removed because the bursts are overpowering, then I'll reconsider. I realize a month is not long, but given the fact most people think 2 terrs is useless, I dont think it will be that big of a deal.

be sure to up the number of changes to 6 as well if you havent already

[Dwopple]

mirror stop being power hungry with this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! youre saying 'if someone can prove to me why its a bad idea ill consider removing it' ....... what the fuck ???? since when was basing left up to you??? the proof is in the hatred of what you have changed to basing...the majority of the people dont like what youre doing here!!! and 80% of the people who support it are from disoblige and complain for changes since they havent won shit since it started 7 seasons ago.


power to the people ffs. take it down until we have more time to test it. simple as that.

[pascone]

If the top 16 teams were asked, 8 of those teams weren't making twl (9-16). Obviously they would want more teams to give them a better chance. Teams ranked 5-8 might not feel secure about their ability to hold their spots, and thus, vote for more teams to ensure a better buffer.

It's no suprise that it was increased to 10

[Nimrook]

i dont get why ppl still complaining? if you dont like two terr rules then DONT USE IT.. it's not like they are FORCING you to go 2 terrs, if like you said majority of the people in ?go base did not like the two terrs style then no one will use it and this suggestion will be ignored anyways

[grand]

Lol, if this ends up actually happening, going to gladly quit

[MirrorriM]

I'm not concerned about the change in itself, but I'm concerned about the way it was gone about. Removing the blocks was whined about, but it was given enough testing for people to ultimately see that it was actually a good idea. I certainly like it, and I bet most people do. Maybe people would feel the same way about allowing 2 terriers if it was given as much time to be tested as the map change was?

Also, enforcing a 4-spider limit is the wrong way to go about it. I've been saying this for years. If people are using 5 spiders then there is a reason for it. Perhaps that reason might be that spiders are overpowered? Or maybe the other ships just aren't good enough? Whatever the case may be, forcing people to play a certain lineup is stupid, and it's not getting to the root of the problem. It's ridiculous to say, "You are forced to play a warbird now! Look how fun and exciting we've made the game now!!" Give people a reason to play that warbird, but don't force them to.

As far has having no ship limits at all, that would be ideal in a perfect world. However, there are a few issues with that. For one, the current map (flagroom, specifically) is far too small to accommodate multiple ships other than spiders. The map would have to be radically changed if this was going to be put into effect. Then, there's another problem with that: the teams would be too small to fill up such a large map. Besides that, no squad is going to seriously use anything but 5 spiders, other than squads with lag abuser javelins. I remember Disoblige at the beginning of last season, talking about how cool their wb+jav strategy was. Really worked great, didn't it guys?

Secondly, let's face it: Subspace is an old game. Lag already has a profound effect on games because of the way the client/server works. How many times have you saw a person blow up for no apparent reason, but on their screen they had hit a burst? How about the times when your jav shoots a bomb, and everyone dies except the terr, who saw no bomb at all on their screen? Do you know how much different (and better) the game would be if everybody saw the exact same thing on their screens? Having even more bursts and bombs and whatnot is going to make the game even more random. You might as well go play Snakes & Ladders. Ideally, TWL would be played on a LAN, but that's obviously not going to happen.

The only reason I dislike javelins is because the only ones that are considered "good" are the players that abuse lag and the bug with rockets+repels. Against an evenly matched team, a warbird is mostly irrelevant, and so is a javelin that doesn't abuse the fuck out of lag. I'd ask to be named a "good" javelin that doesn't do this, but unfortunately, that's impossible.

I agree with you about everything, Stab. I've already said multiple times that I wish more testing was allowed. It was abruptly stopped early. We can all say we wanted more testing. I still think 2 terrs is not apocalyptic until someone shows me evidence otherwise. I took the idea from the no ship limit guys, tested and saw 2 terrs had the least effect.

Sirius: you sure like to ignore all the facts, dont you. I asked top 16. I paid attention to the squads highest on the ladder. Even more attention to past TWLD squads. ... want a surprising fact? The squads lower on the ladder voted for 8, they thought they werent good enough. The squads highest on the ladder thought 10 was good. Since they are the ones actually playing against these 2 extra squads, I will pay attention to them.

Edit: 2 terrs are now allowed in TWBD and ?go base. Feel free to try it out and lemme know what you think. If at the end of next month (before TWL), people still think it should be removed because the bursts are overpowering, then I'll reconsider. I realize a month is not long, but given the fact most people think 2 terrs is useless, I dont think it will be that big of a deal.

[megaman89]

I decided to ask 16 squadcaptains on the TWLD ladder what they thought. - Mirrorrim

This is a funny point, considering it contradicts Mirrorrim trying to claim that it was based off the 'past TWL squadcaptains' when there is nowhere near 16 of those in TWD right now, maybe 5 or 6 tops for TWLD.

true 5 or 6. Dice being 1 of them. And I was not asked

[Sirius]

I decided to ask 16 squadcaptains on the TWLD ladder what they thought. - Mirrorrim

This is a funny point, considering it contradicts Mirrorrim trying to claim that it was based off the 'past TWL squadcaptains' when there is nowhere near 16 of those in TWD right now, maybe 5 or 6 tops for TWLD.

[Stabwound]

I'm not concerned about the change in itself, but I'm concerned about the way it was gone about. Removing the blocks was whined about, but it was given enough testing for people to ultimately see that it was actually a good idea. I certainly like it, and I bet most people do. Maybe people would feel the same way about allowing 2 terriers if it was given as much time to be tested as the map change was?

Also, enforcing a 4-spider limit is the wrong way to go about it. I've been saying this for years. If people are using 5 spiders then there is a reason for it. Perhaps that reason might be that spiders are overpowered? Or maybe the other ships just aren't good enough? Whatever the case may be, forcing people to play a certain lineup is stupid, and it's not getting to the root of the problem. It's ridiculous to say, "You are forced to play a warbird now! Look how fun and exciting we've made the game now!!" Give people a reason to play that warbird, but don't force them to.

As far has having no ship limits at all, that would be ideal in a perfect world. However, there are a few issues with that. For one, the current map (flagroom, specifically) is far too small to accommodate multiple ships other than spiders. The map would have to be radically changed if this was going to be put into effect. Then, there's another problem with that: the teams would be too small to fill up such a large map. Besides that, no squad is going to seriously use anything but 5 spiders, other than squads with lag abuser javelins. I remember Disoblige at the beginning of last season, talking about how cool their wb+jav strategy was. Really worked great, didn't it guys?

Secondly, let's face it: Subspace is an old game. Lag already has a profound effect on games because of the way the client/server works. How many times have you saw a person blow up for no apparent reason, but on their screen they had hit a burst? How about the times when your jav shoots a bomb, and everyone dies except the terr, who saw no bomb at all on their screen? Do you know how much different (and better) the game would be if everybody saw the exact same thing on their screens? Having even more bursts and bombs and whatnot is going to make the game even more random. You might as well go play Snakes & Ladders. Ideally, TWL would be played on a LAN, but that's obviously not going to happen.

The only reason I dislike javelins is because the only ones that are considered "good" are the players that abuse lag and the bug with rockets+repels. Against an evenly matched team, a warbird is mostly irrelevant, and so is a javelin that doesn't abuse the fuck out of lag. I'd ask to be named a "good" javelin that doesn't do this, but unfortunately, that's impossible.

[Dwopple]

wow, you are genuinely afraid that your 5-spiders lineup might get owned by a team that's going to take a gamble and use 2 terriers, purely because you're inexperienced playing against something different than vs 5 spiders?
that's pretty funny to me, i forgot how difficult it is for this generation's basers to adapt to a slight change.. though i now understand why you're being so angry with this sudden change, while old school players like stayon couldn't care less..

i have accepted that basing is in need of change, but if you cant read, this isnt the time, this isnt something that should just be thrown out a month before TWL, it needs time to work up strategies, etc.


now stfu and sit in the corner