TWLB Finals - WTF decision?

[Spezza]

Hey dudes, sorry I'm legit terrible at making paragraphs and stuff cuz im kinda retarded but oh well. I just wanna say its a shame the way this played out and stuff, however I also find some things said are kinda biased and based off personal perceptions of people and I want to at least take some responsibility or whatever for the actions taken to not replay this or whatever. I play this game quite a bit, especially when playoffs come around.. didn't play much in finals week but before semis played lots, and I only do that because i came to this zone pretty late so its not that easy to get a match vs a strong team(specifically spiders as I don't judge myself against other ships). Coming into this season I had played dice once in a finals and once on lego. It was my first season when it was finals and I got subbed out after first game and i think the reason for that is cuz I kept saying "I suck" in team chat even though I don't think me/zung undering were bad.. more just trying to take the heat off other players. In lego we all got squashed and it wasn't even vs dice top line. In twd's i have been crushed by them countless times and so I look forward to facing them because I view them as my superior or whatever.


So for me I play for fun and then 2 weeks a year I try to get good. I have to book work off each Sunday I want to play and that makes finals mean a bit more to me than to other people because I actually try hard when playoffs come so that I don't have to use the excuse of "didn't even practice" like it is a legitimate one. Honestly those statements get me the most because I have the chance to prove myself like twice a year.

I never was on a chat with any of dice's members I don't think so I can't say I'm close to them, but I do like a lot of them when we PM or what not and at least respect their skill in ship 3. That said they are beyond egotistical at least publicly and so it fuels your competitive desire to beat them more.

As a player on Sunday I felt as if Pandora was the better team on Sunday, and I feel as if people reading this thread actually don't think Pandora would have won on Sunday if both teams played with rd 2 lines. I don't understand why though because outside of that long cram dice had at the start of the round to pull ahead 7+mins to 1 I thought it was pretty clear who was better. I'm not gonna say dice couldn't have won, or doing their weird mega/stayon switch wouldn't have changed the outcome of the next one. But round 2 to me felt comfortable. There are 3 reasons why I am posting so I will try to be more clear and succinct.

1. Pandora did not MAKE what happened Sunday happen or LIKE that it happened or WANT it to happen or was PLEASED when it happened and was NOT FAVORED by what happened(outside of dwopple leaving which sucked). The first game I thought Pandora controlled the flag room pretty well and got the majority of Teks while their cram was broken instantaneously nonstop unless they forced dice down into tube in which case dice was pretty bad at getting up the tube. Vati played well and is a good ter however adding a person with way more experience in the ship on a big stage is going to change things and after Cape got us in we went on a pretty good run to finish and had all the momentum when the bot error occurred and I really think we deserved something for playing that and would have won that game. The second game there were some idiot squad members either jokingly or seriously saying vati to leave, those individuals were not involved in the actual game or the decisions about lineup as far as I am aware though. The decision to replay with Cape playing was at least to me obvious and the fact that people actually care about that shows how that they only care about who wins rather than the sort of "best on best" mentality that finals is SUPPOSED to bring. I was honestly shocked that it was even brought up as dice at least has skills to back up their talk. I dunno if it was a joke that a dice supporter in spec latched onto to try and "help" their team or if that was an actual dice complaint but either way it goes against what the finals is and makes this game out to be a bigger joke than it has to be. The 3rd game was a complete shit show as dice's lineup I thought was like a joke, but I guess it was actually trying just sucked that dwopple couldn't be there so you could still spid cripple. By this point I personally did not care because it appeared to me that they had given up and there was no chance they would have won that game(no matter what u ppl think, that line of dice in round 3 gets beat by a lot of teams.. imo).

2. It sucks that it played out like this but the year Pandora played Pene in finals was a much worse finals and a bigger joke than this one if you look at the number of starters missing for Pandora. Although there were a lot of errors in these games I don't see how they favoured Pandora to win, I can see how the decisions made by staff in comparison to the rules of what should technically happen favored Pandora but the events themselves did not, and Pandora was winning at the points where all these errors occured. To me at least Pandora was the undeniably better team on Sunday. This title was deserved.

3. Dice I like you guys and stuff but it sucks to me that you're leaving when I didn't get the chance to face you guys with top lines even 5 times. Its a good life choice to leave the game but god damn I wish you would have at least gone out on top or something, to me your spids did not play well on Sunday and made me feel like I was the superior one and made me question why I ever thought you guys were the best ever. Thank you for being good opponents even though we almost never played, and it sucks that theres no squad left that I have nervous thoughts about.

P.S. I play this game too much when playoffs come so for me replaying is not an option as I am behind on homework, work next 2 sundays, and don't want to play with the ability to make the excuse "you won because I didn't give a fuck/was inactive". Those statements put down the finals, come off as completely douchebaglike, are derogatory towards everyone watching and playing, and are THE WORST. I could replay it actually 2 sundays from now but after 6 pm est cuz work/ld finals.

P.P.S. Bye cripple/mm89, cripple you were a good squaddie to me on Respect and then loved to trash talk me after but I don't mind that. Mm89 liked our pm's when we played eachother, don't do that with any squad but dice, you're aim was flawless in some twd's. Will miss both of you. and FUCK U FOR "NOT CARING". =)

[Rule]

M_M God what Pandora players deserve is the satisfaction of winning TWLB, not having the head of the zone come up with ridiculous proposals. We already showed who was the better team last Sunday when we won, I'm not sure if you even watched the game based on some of the stuff you're saying. Asking to replay anything after it's over only favors the team that lost, so I'm not sure how you're surprised by being called bias. Pandora, more specifically everyone who played, feels they won 3/3 rounds and deserved that win 100%. It's unfortunate there were delays and a player had to leave, but that isn't the first time it's happened and I'm guessing it won't be the last.

Just another example of what a condescending piece of shit Zidane is telling the head of the zone that hes coming up with ridiculous proposals, is biased etc. Rough took it to another level by accusing him of cheating. Its all about getting what ever you can out of Reckful all season long by whining and crying till you get your way while your buddies like Turban playing LOL with him (and Reckful has clear bias in the way he talks about other squads) its clear that you can get any decision you want regardless of whether its fair, legit and for the benefit of the zone because Reckful will give it to you. MM clearly doesn't care who wins and is unbiased trying to reach a resolution while you take cheap shots at him.

This is why the leagues are dead. Staff needs to "ask" instead of laying down decisions and rules and enforcing them.

[Jessup]

Replay LB and LD !!! The first post was the best I'm sure both teams are quite capable of doing so with some notice. It'll bring some excitement back too and it will be legit. Do 15's too in lb. That is all . Both teams are great. Lets see it replayed!

[Welfare]

Mythril> best isnt even in our starting line

LOOOL

Also, I think its funny how Reckful deleted the logs of him trashing Apok and Tripin in PM after Trip called him a fucking idiot.

[Mythril]

"I offered both squads a chance to, for once, have a fair way of showing who's better and deservedly so the winner of TWLB Season 18. You guys can even keep your already earned TWLB titles from last sunday"

No, actually the TWLB Finals offered us a fair way of showing who the better squad was, not you. You say we earned the TWLB title last sunday but you want us to show who the better squad is in a glorified, staff hosted 8v8 TWBD? What's the point in titles then if they don't represent the winners? Let's replay every TWLB Final that didn't have everyone's starters in, including Pandora's past finals. You contradict yourself in back to back sentences. I don't really care if it's you or PriitK who's "offering", it's still bullshit and just looks like damage control at the expense of Pandora. Why do we have to be the first squad to win 5 rounds to win a title? No thanks to your offer.

I didn't see you offering these proposals to Thunder when the best player in the zone got ddosed in the TWLD Finals against Fierce. Why pull some unprecedented shit now?

"At that time I had to go, so other that what I heard from my staffers afterwards, and have seen on forums, that is all I know."

You weren't even there after round 2. Your opinion should immediately be invalid, doesn't matter who you are. Humid's opinion is invalid because he wasn't there. Cres' opinion is invalid cause he wasn't there. Chuckle's opinion is invalid because he wasn't there. You saw as much of round 3 as Dock> did. Dock>'s opinion is also invalid.

If Dice was in such a disadvantage in round 3 then maybe they should have talked to a TWL Op about it and we could have discussed it the same way I had to discuss TWLD. But no, we both played the round and the game was 18-11 when the bot died. Read Downfall's post (someone who was actually there) and you'll find out that we only needed 30 seconds to win the game when Dice wasn't even in the flagroom. You think my squad is dumb enough to lose that game with all of our momentum? If maketso warped from anywhere it was mid base at best. Just to refresh your memory, we're the same squad who were champions last season and the same squad that beat Enemy in the semis this year. We aren't going to blow a lead with 30 seconds to go in the closing round of TWLB Finals when we hold the base.

And for those saying it's the same as TWLD, it isn't. Didn't my squad play the TWLD finals? You don't think we played with the intention of playing the whole game despite having a shitty lineup in to decide who the winner was? The lag was out of our control. We didn't quit playing like Dice did, the game became unplayable and anybody who was there would agree with this. Logs show 34-25 when the lag started with our 2 best players myself and Ease, on the lowest deaths. Isn't that a similar score to what happened in round 3 of the TWLJ Finals and we came back to win it?

Let's also ignore the fact that a Fierce player used an illegal resolution and took advantage of there being no bot in the arena.

5.01
Any Player found to be guilty of cheating to alter game play and to create an unfair advantage during a TWL match will be subject to:

A) Permanent suspension from Trench Wars Leagues participation.

B) Forfeit of all squad matches the offending player played in the week the offense was discovered.

C) Referral to League Operators and Trench Wars Moderators for immediate punishment including being banned from Trench Wars.

But we don't give a shit. We are willing to reschedule for a time that is best for them and for us. It's best for the integrity of TWLD. I'm giving more respect to Fierce than they were willing to give to me.

tl;dr - read it anyway

[ogron]

Let's examine this constantly regurgitated talking-point about Pandora favoritism:

TWLD -- We crush Paladen, and some Ops mistake causes Jessup's appeal to be granted despite us doing nothing wrong. We have to beat them twice to get 1 win. DECISION FAVORS PALADEN.

TWLJ -- Revenge claims Turban was lagging badly. Ops again fuck up and wait way too long to make a decision. The second Ops ask our caps to sub him, we do. We're forced to replay it, and win twice to get 1 win. DECISION FAVORS REVENGE.

TWLB -- We're leading in Round 1 15:45-15:05 or something thereabouts and Ops again fuck up and program the bot to 31 minutes. They announce a sudden change while we're down like 14:50-11:00 or something that it's going to 31 minutes, despite having known the entire time. We made a comeback, and put ourselves in a clutch winning position with a tek and control of base were it to 20, and win the game to 31. Game is completely annulled despite us being in a good position to clinch. DECISION FAVORS DICE.

TWLB -- We're absolutely demolishing dice up 18:40-11:15 in complete control of mid and Dice is in spawn. This is a 99.999999999999999999999999% win, it's practically impossible to get thru the layers of mines, win mid, then break cram, then win FR in the span of 1 minute and 15 seconds, THEN go another 9 minutes. The bots getting killed by Dice or dying magically on their own as Pandora on the cusp of victory is bullshit. Reckful recognizes this and awards us the deserved victory. I don't think this decision favors us at all, because we were guaranteed the win and this outcome just let's Dice play the victim card and claim they could have come back and that this whole final wasn't fair, despite losing 3 rounds in a row. They categorically refused to play starting in Spawn Round 1 and Mega said he'd spec everyone and quit if that happened. The sensible approach would be to start Dice at 11 minutes in spawn and Pandora in mid at 18 but they would refuse -- Why would you legitimize a Pandora victory from an un-winnable position when you can just claim you got screwed by bots which you definitely didn't kill?


We had to beat a squad in every league twice to get one win, and won both the original matches and the replays. And we're the ones accused of favoritism and cheating ppl out of a fair contest?

The LB fuckups dragged on so long we lost Spezza, and Weak couldnt show, so we were missing 40% of our LD starting line. Apok make a super mature "we're either playing today or not at all", so despite having a very small chance of winning and defending the triple crown, Pandora agreed to play. How unsportsmanlike of Pandora to accept these shitty terms down 2/5 best WBs.

We played, we were losing, and I think we would have lost that Round 1, but there was horrible lag and the game was canceled. This definitely favors Pandora. It wasn't Round 3 LB secured, but it was more certain than the Round 1 LB replay which was a tight 15:45-15:15. DECISION FAVORS PANDORA.

In Conclusion:

There were 5 TWL Op decisions involving Pandora this TWL, 3 that favored our opponents, 1 (LB Round 3) that didn't favor anybody, and 1 that benefited Pandora (LD Round 1). We were winning all those games except the LD, which we played missing 40% of our starters because Fierce made a 12-year old's ultimatum and we didn't want a free win without earning it.

So go ahead and cry about us getting favoritism when we have to win 6 times to get 3 fucking wins because Ops can't do their fucking jobs right, and because Fierce and Dice are babies making ultimatums refusing to play from the original position of the game or on another week, the truth is the facts don't support any of your bullshit claims.

[beam]

ogron missing key points that lasenza blatantly cheated using a resolution above the twld legal limits and by the rules should have caused fierce's disqualification along with a personal ban from twl/zone forever

[Dreamwin]

Wise words from Spezza, also a good post by claushouse.

Can we get over this already? It pisses me off too that those errors occured, because now there are bunch of haters saying we didnt deserve the title when it was 100% obvious. I play this game for fun(includes being able to compete in top level) and playing TWL Finals is the greatest fun this game offers. TWL is always fun because that's the only time people try their best anymore. Sure I would gladly play as many as TWL finals possible. I would be happy with a rematch but what it comes to last sunday, we were the better team. We deserved the title. We won 3 out of 3. So whatever, lets bring our best lineups and play it out. However, there's no question on who were the better team last sunday and who deserved the title.


On a sidenote: I like how Rule and Rise Against is disliking/arguing every post zidane posts and liking/backing up each others posts. I think if you look at this closely you see this is just pure hate towards zidane/Pandora.
Guys, wake up. You are talking about logic and everything but you yourself are lacking it massively.

PS. This has gone for so long it's starting to piss me off. Get your heads out of your asses.

[maketso]

LOL "TWLB -- We're absolutely demolishing dice up 18:40-11:15 in complete control of mid and Dice is in spawn. This is a 99.999999999999999999999999% win, it's practically impossible to get thru the layers of mines, win mid, then break cram, then win FR in the span of 1 minute and 15 seconds, THEN go another 9 minutes. The bots getting killed by Dice or dying magically on their own as Pandora on the cusp of victory is bullshit. Reckful recognizes this and awards us the deserved victory. I don't think this decision favors us at all, because we were guaranteed the win and this outcome just let's Dice play the victim card and claim they could have come back and that this whole final wasn't fair, despite losing 3 rounds in a row. They categorically refused to play starting in Spawn Round 1 and Mega said he'd spec everyone and quit if that happened. The sensible approach would be to start Dice at 11 minutes in spawn and Pandora in mid at 18 but they would refuse -- Why would you legitimize a Pandora victory from an un-winnable position when you can just claim you got screwed by bots which you definitely didn't kill?
"
Biggest bs I have ever seen on this thread.
Starting from the fact we broke your cram and got into FR before bots died. We were IN FR when bots died. We were STILL IN FR when we stopped playing. We were STILL IN FR when I warped to spawn as I was 100% sure a replay would happen. I was so sure I had the biggest smile ever on my face IRL. Yes we only had a small chance to win but your chances were even smaller in LD and yet the round is somehow being replayed.
Now I've seen bots die in TWL many many times and every single time there has been a REPLAY never a free win.

Btw after you realized bots died and stopped playing I ran back to fr and kept the flag for 20 minutes straight, now aren't we the real winners??

[Turban]

i would like to add my two cents, but mostly everything has been covered thus far. most likely now we'll only see hate-filled posts with several irrational arguments until the thread slowly dies.

imho, round 2 was a great game by both teams and in the third round (technically second) we showed dominance over dice, it was highly unlikely that we could've lost the game unless bots died - anyone in spec who knows aything about the game and isn't biased could tell the same thing. wish someone had recorded the game, but shit happens. i would've done it, but not enough space on my HD to record a 40 minute video with FRAPS. sorry.

good game, let's have a nice off season. hopefully staff implements a TWD cup or something similar to spice it up.

[beam]

Maketso your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that you are referencing our game against fierce in which they fielded a cheater and should have been disqualified regardless of the score. I wouldn't recommend using that fierce game as an example in the future because it makes it seem as though you are in support of cheating in twl.

[Rule]

Lol at Pandora members whining and bitching away in mass. Biggest group of trolls and whiners the game has seen in a long time.

- Rule

[a2m+]

Dice's grounds for appeal (if we were actually following through with it) would have been that we would have had a full lineup if the game wasn't delayed beyond belief and that lag and bot issues caused a hindrance to our lineup that we wouldn't have to deal with any other weekend. All that other bullshit people are spewing just sounds like sour grapes to me and makes us look bad (even though it's non-dice members fighting for it). That being said, we're not appealing and we're not replaying the game. We're comfortable knowing we're the best basing squad ever and don't need a 7th basing title to prove it. Pandora was the better squad on that day and deserve the title. Spezza is right in that we probably would have lost to Warhable that last round and it didn't matter who they threw in. More times than not, the more active squad will win twlb finals. Just ask -final- when they had to face spastic back in the day. Now let this die and put a second red ribbon next to vati's name.

P.S. Claus can you get over this and stop being so defensive? Practically no one actually in dice is putting up a fight or putting you down but your bitching us out for being "whiners".

[Rule]

I am going to let this rest as well. I have put down my opinion enough times: Disgusted with the behavior of some Pandora players in game, on the boards etc and the total incompetence of some members of staff. Nothing positive will come from this. I can provide a different point of view till the end of days and they still won't get it as they can only think one way.

[Vatican Assassin]

Many of you are blaming Zidane for this LB's problems, but he had literally no say or place to take part in the outcome. In the end, those who are unsatisfied with the result of a team winning LB with only 18:40 minutes of flag time can only correctly blame two people: reckful for awarding Pandora a victory instead of some form of a replay, and megaman89 for not caring enough to file an appeal for the most important game of the year. In my opinion, mm89 knew that he had lost, and I think most of us who understand basing see that.

I remember Pandora's first loss to Dice so many seasons ago. TWL Forums immediately exploded into flame wars after the loss but I was like, woah! that was really fun and I hope we can do it again and everyone was like damn! you're right, gg. I'd like to see more of that.

And rule, I'm sorry that a few years ago Zidane talked shit to you in twdd like everyone else does, but can you do us all a small favor and buck the fuck up and shut the fuck up about it? People are trying to give heartfelt farewells and discuss the intricacies of trench wars basing, somethings you don't know a god damn thing about. Rise against, why don't you take all those +1's you're sending Rule's way, turn them sideways, lube 'em up real good, and stick them directly up your candy ass, Jabroni.