Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[With Ease]

I hate to do this, but round 2 was such a joke that it's necessary. JAMAL was in the middle of a bad storm and told us that if he lagged out we should sub him immediately. JAMAL lagged out right before GO GO GO, and I subbed anonym in for him and switched myself into shark. One to two minutes later, JAMAL returned and I was unable to put him back in the game because the bot told me "player not in game." TWL allows you to sub in players that have previously been subbed out, so it makes no sense why TWDT should be any different.

Having our best player watching from spec for 20+ minutes, and leaving a 6* player in his place is ridiculous. I have no complaints about round 3, but it's extremely shitty to end the season with JAMAL in spec for 20+ minutes and myself stuck in shark.

Thank you for your time.

[ogron]

We're 3-0 against Terrorist with 10* JAMAL, our #1 pick and best player, not disappearing due to a storm and being subbed by a 6*.

He was back within a minute of Round 2 starting, and had to sit in spec the entire round because of a bot bug.

Who plays in the TWDT-B Finals shouldn't be decided by a bot error that cost us our best 10* shark to be in spec, forced our best 10* spider into shark, and replaced with a 6*.

[qan]

For dev, unrelated to how Ops might handle this: do you have the exact text the bot sent you that disallowed the sub after you did !sub anonym:jamal? ("player not in game" doesn't have any matches, though there are two different similar messages it may have been.) It would help in fixing this bug and tracking exactly what went on.

[Jessup]

For the record Jessup was in the arena and could have been utilized by thunder too as a sub but was not.

[With Ease]

For dev, unrelated to how Ops might handle this: do you have the exact text the bot sent you that disallowed the sub after you did !sub anonym:jamal? ("player not in game" doesn't have any matches, though there are two different similar messages it may have been.) It would help in fixing this bug and tracking exactly what went on.

I logged off after round 3 to change from shark keys so I don't have a log. It was either player is already in game or player is not in game, or something of the sort. Could test it using a TWDT bot to get the exact message for dev purposes later today.

[Majorcrisis2]

I logged off after round 3 to change from shark keys so I don't have a log. It was either player is already in game or player is not in game, or something of the sort. Could test it using a TWDT bot to get the exact message for dev purposes later today.

I believe it always was something like "cant sub in a player who has already been subbed out"

[skyforger]

I believe it always was something like "cant sub in a player who has already been subbed out"

Yeah. It is so even in the less serious league that is TWD and has been so for ages.

[Mythril]

I want to experiment with thinking out loud before making a final decision. There should be plenty of people looking at the forums for hot or nots/this appeal and I would appreciate feedback from everybody, especially Dreamwin and Terrorist.

This is a legitimate bot error, as in, it needs to be changed immediately. I experienced the same thing in my TWDT-B game yesterday. I'm the TWDT Op and didn't know it was a thing, so ignorance is a valid excuse in my view. Trying to re-sub in a player returns "MatchBot> Player is already in the game."

As JAMAL, 10*, is clearly a pillar in Thunder's lineup, there's no denying that his absence had some impact on Thunder's performance. Thunder fielded a lineup of 63* when Undercut was also subbed out, 4 lower than the maximum. That's a large handicap that could have been solved immediately without the bot error.

I also have to weigh Terrorist's side. Round 2, without Jamal, ended 15:00-9:59. Round 3, with Thunder's full 67* lineup, ended 15:00-11:27. That's a 1:28 difference in performance. Terrorist played out of their minds when the finals appearance was on the line.

Can I honestly believe the impact was so severe that we deserve a full out 0:00-0:00 replay? Round 3 was played with do-or-die intensity. Terrorist won the game, Thunder lost. Is it fair to discredit the stakes of that third round by simply calling it round two? It can be argued that Terrorist was in do-or-die mode anyway, but they had already won a round 2. This was the decisive round 3, before any appeal was considered. As of right now, they're currently in the TWDT-B Finals.

Both sides hold weight in my mind. I think I have three options here, and all of them have an argument:

1. Deny the appeal entirely
2. Start the games 1-1, effectively rematching round 2 and calling it the deciding round 3.
3. Accept the appeal on the condition that we preserve Terrorists' perceived victory by granting them 3:33 (the difference in round 3) at the start of the match, while Thunder would need the full 15 minutes to win the final round.

The first option discredits the legitimate bot error that Thunder dealt with. The second option completely disregards Terrorists' win, especially in the intense third round. The third option somewhat accommodates both teams while acknowledging both the bot error and Terrorist's win. For Terrorist, they begin with a head start after winning the original best of 3, and Thunder still has a chance to make the finals, although a victory would happen on a more difficult curve.

It's not an easy decision. I lean towards options 2 or 3. Will decide tomorrow morning.

[Rab]

My opinion: the reason the semi-final is a BO3 is because we want more confidence that the better team progresses to the next knockout stage. The important thing about this is it determines who is the better team on a given day. Playing two of the games on one day and one of the games on another day doesn't feel like a true measure of determining which team is better. So I think if you decide for Thunder it should be a fresh BO3, all on the same day. However, I watched these games and I think Terrorist was the stronger team on the day, so I don't really feel it's necessary to deny them their victory.

[skyforger]

5:skyforger> another issue is thunder freeloading, they basically need to win 2 rounds out of 4, while requiring terrorist to win 3 out of 4
5:skyforger> there would be no replay if thunder won with jessup or whoever in
5:Mythril> should get these arguments on forums if you have time

[Dreamwin]

Im really sad to hear you are considering options 2 or 3. Im about to go to sleep and I have full day at work tomorrow but I try to come up with reply at some point. What I can tell you is that I already got a couple of my best players saying they wont play if this gets approved. Frankly, im likely to jump on that train as well as Ive been fucked with bullshit appeals like this one season after another and while I cant field my best lineup, im not getting raped 15-2 for it. I rather forfeit and leave this all behind.

[Flew]

Does Thunder appeal this game if they won? Definitely not. To be real Myth, I think whichever decision you come to, results in at least one party being upset. Maybe the best course of action is to state here which option(s) you as the league coordinator deem most appropriate but, the replay decision between the captains' of both teams (this is usually how HZ handles it and everyone leaves happy).

ie.
- Mythril says option 3 is the one he would like done IF there is a replay
- Ease asks Dreamwin if he'll replay it the a -3.33 handicap
- Dreamwin says ok and we replay the match (whoever wins, can't blame league coordinator for being "biased")
OR
- Dreamwin says no and we don't replay the match (now dw looks like a pussy)

We're adults and should be able to come to an adult arrangement of everything. I just think that in base giving a team 3:33 is big but not big enough to the team that did nothing wrong and is replaying on the grounds of sportsmanship and bot error, at the same time also beat Thunder already with Jamal in the lineup. If the game is replayed, I think giving Terrorist control of the base to start the game with like a one of two minute advantage is better. 3:33 is a good handicap but DW and Terrorist deserve more if they replay this game.

The replay doesn't NEED to happen but it should. Ease and Dreamwin are both vets, I think maybe you two could talk amongst yourselves and find terms that you agree upon and approach Mythril with that. If you just leave sole decision up to Mythril, one of you will be pissed with his decision. A compromise should be reached between two decorated vets like yourselves.

P.S. I promised Ease he'd lose twld after he pm'd me this:

Ease> you're fkin garbage newbie with your r4s

I think I only had 1 R4 all 3 rnds=)

[zidane]

I watched this game and it was a complete joke. Reminded me of twdtb finals a few seasons ago when the bot wouldn't let me sub in raples because I already had Ra in. That game was even more unfortunate because half my team kept lagging out so i didn't bother making a fuss about it since we got destroyed.

I think it's worth mentioning that thunder beat terror 15-8 with their actual lineup. Jamal was forced to sit in spec due to a bot bug when he showed about 1 min into the round. Any actual logic being used would allow a player to return into the game but were playing a 20 year old spaceship game. Thunder was then forced to shark their best spid and have their best shark on the bench for no reason. Thunder basically had a 60* lineup in that round because ease isn't close to a 10* shark... but yea good semifinal.

Thunder lost their best shark and best spid that round due to a game breaking bug. Let's hope common sense prevails in TW 2019

[Jessup]

This is how I see this situation....

This was NOT a true bot malfunction or a bot bug.

TWDT bots have been like this since they were created which is how many seasons now??..at least 4 full seasons??? These bots have been used for years while every team in every season has been bound to their settings for every game ever played in twdt since their creation. TWD bots are also setup the same way as twdt bots which do not allow subbed players back in once subbed out. Wbduel, javduel, and base bots do not allow this type multiple in and out subbing either. All TWDT teams are playing under the same bot system and have been for years. To grant an appeal for this situation at this time would be favoritism and special treatment.

Thunder should have waited before immediately doing a sub of their best player as they should have known this was the settings regarding subs which all TWDT teams face. Jamal was gone 1 minute only. Had he been left in on his return a /!lagout would have cured this issue. It was an improper decision by whoever immediately subbed him out without waiting a minute or so to see if he would return. Thunder had other players to use as subs also besides anonym (anon is a good spider too) but I was in the arena and am a higher star rated player but was not utilized. I think there were others there too who could have been used though not 100 percent sure.

This could be something to be discussed and corrected for future seasons but there was no malfunction that took place so I see no grounds for an appeal,

It does suck Jamal had lag issues though.. tough luck.

[Flew]

I watched this game and it was a complete joke. Reminded me of twdtb finals a few seasons ago when the bot wouldn't let me sub in raples because I already had Ra in. That game was even more unfortunate because half my team kept lagging out so i didn't bother making a fuss about it since we got destroyed.

I think it's worth mentioning that thunder beat terror 15-8 with their actual lineup. Jamal was forced to sit in spec due to a bot bug when he showed about 1 min into the round. Any actual logic being used would allow a player to return into the game but were playing a 20 year old spaceship game. Thunder was then forced to shark their best spid and have their best shark on the bench for no reason. Thunder basically had a 60* lineup in that round because ease isn't close to a 10* shark... but yea good semifinal.

Thunder lost their best shark and best spid that round due to a game breaking bug. Let's hope common sense prevails in TW 2019

I wrote my post before I saw this response loool.

I watched this game and it was a complete joke. Reminded me of twdtb finals a few seasons ago when the bot wouldn't let me sub in raples because I already had Ra in. That game was even more unfortunate because half my team kept lagging out so i didn't bother making a fuss about it since we got destroyed.

I think it's worth mentioning that thunder beat terror 15-8 with their actual lineup. Jamal was forced to sit in spec due to a bot bug when he showed about 1 min into the round. Any actual logic being used would allow a player to return into the game but were playing a 20 year old spaceship game. Thunder was then forced to shark their best spid and have their best shark on the bench for no reason. Thunder basically had a 60* lineup in that round because ease isn't close to a 10* shark... but yea good semifinal.

Thunder lost their best shark and best spid that round due to a game breaking bug. Let's hope common sense prevails in TW 2019

Also worth noting, Terrorist beat Thunder with Jamal in in the 3rd rnd.