Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[ogron]

What?

You can sub back in after being subbed out on some bots. Qan is definitely not correct on this.

More importantly, you're SUPPOSED to be able to sub back in. And he's clearly established it is a bug. It's just so rare someone gets subbed back in it has, to my knowledge, never come up in a relevant league game. Certainly not recently.

It has never come up in TWDT since I've played every season since 2011, and ran the league 5x.

No captain has EVER brought this up, because you generally sub someone out for lagging or sucking, so there's no reason to sub them back in. There's no rule against subbing back in, and the bot code proves it is meant to be allowed.

A) You're allowed to sub back in
B) Code is written explicitly to allow you to sub back in
C) It's so rare of an event it's never been appealed or brought up before in TWDT because wanting to sub someone back in is very rare
D) It finally occurred in a key match, and this is the test case for it

[ogron]

1:turban> TWLB allows subbing back pretty sure


There's definitely a reasonable expectation that you can re-sub in during league basing games.

There's 2 main leagues: TWL and TWDT.

We have a reasonable expectation of being allowed to re-sub someone during league basing games, and a clearly established BUG prevented it.

1) Turban says TWLB bots allow re-subs
2) Qan says the code in all bots is designed to allow re-subs
3) No rule against it

This clearly establishes that re-subbing is meant to be allowed, and that we had a reasonable expectation of the bot allowing us to re-sub JAMAL back in 1 minute into the game.

[qan]

You're saying it's a bug... but the bot literally has a message designed for the bug saying you cant sub in a player who was subbed out?

To make it clearer, the message about being unable to sub a player back in who has been subbed out is not a bug. The bugged message is "X is already in the game" when it should sub the player in instead. Subbing in a subbed-out player is supposed to be allowed in basing, but never has been due to the bug.

So you are saying NEVER has someone been able to sub back in after being subbed out, right ?!?!

Bots have changed an incredible amount over the years, but as far as I can tell, yes.

You can sub back in after being subbed out on some bots. Qan is definitely not correct on this.

I'm talking solely about MatchBot in this case. Though it may have been changed at some point.

As for other bots: I did a quick investigation of TWDTBot (when we still used it) and BWJSBot, and they don't appear to allow a subbed-out player to come back as a sub. However, TWLBot does allow it.

But you're right that code has been written to allow this (in MatchBot-based basing only), perhaps because it occurred one time before, but just had never been tested. The code to allow subs to sub back in was put in around July 26th 2017, which is I believe when we were running the first season of TSL.

[qan]

Confirmed that TWLBot allows subs to sub back in, in all leagues. Editing the post above to reflect this.

[Efhat]

Bots have changed an incredible amount over the years, but as far as I can tell, yes.


I'm talking about MatchBot in this case. Though it may have been changed at some point. I did a quick investigation of TWLBot, TWDTBot (when we still used it) and BWJSBot, and none appear to allow a subbed-out player to come back as a sub. (Wrote this post before refreshing to see the claim about TWLB. Will have to check again and get back to you on that.)

Thank you.

this has ALWAYS been the case since the beginning of time. League matches before have been played around this plenty of times.

Myself, and dozens of other players have had to sit in spectator in prior league games years back because of this issue obviously affecting the outcome of games.

this has affected the outcome of numerous games throughout the years and has been known.

i spoke to ease today and he said they updated TWLBOT on this issue. So I am sure that was attended to awhile back. I do nott ever remember seeing a forum post about it but maybe qan can verify like he said.

But that being said, were league games replayed after the changes? No. Was there an appeal on this issue? No. The issue was fixed and we moved on. Should be the same outcome here.

This wasnt a one time thing.

people did not appeal or complain about this before because we all assumed it was apart of the game, WHICH IT IS.

if we are going to re-write this, then we might as well forfeit every single medal anyone has earned because plenty of players have been subbed out throughout the history of this game for x reasons and could not be subbed back in.

[Falconeer]

To make it clearer, the message about being unable to sub a player back in who has been subbed out is not a bug. The bugged message is "X is already in the game" when it should sub the player in instead. Subbing in a subbed-out player is supposed to be allowed in basing, but never has been due to the bug.


Bots have changed an incredible amount over the years, but as far as I can tell, yes.


I'm talking solely about MatchBot in this case. Though it may have been changed at some point.

As for other bots: I did a quick investigation of TWDTBot (when we still used it) and BWJSBot, and they don't appear to allow a subbed-out player to come back as a sub. However, TWLBot does allow it.

But you're right that code has been written to allow this (in MatchBot-based basing only), perhaps because it occurred one time before, but just had never been tested. The code to allow subs to sub back in was put in around July 26th 2017, which is I believe when we were running the first season of TSL.

That's not really clear at all. You're missing a timeline in the explanation....

A) In d/j: (Player) was already subbed out before, and can't be subbed in again.
B) In b: (Player) is already in the game

You have two messages A and B. Message A is not a bug and it doesn't occur in base at all? So when does the bot deliver that message? Under what circumstances?

Message B occurs in base? And it only occurs when you are trying to a sub a player in? If so is this the message Thunder received when trying to sub JAMAL back in or did they receive message A?

You are stating updates to the bot to allow a subbed out player to re-enter the game were introduced in 2017? But were buggy and not implemented well?

So what happened before 2017? Was it that you could not re-enter a subbed out player at all?

I'm confused because we have two big narratives going here... and no clear explanation for why half the population thinks it's always been one way. I think something is lost in translation since you are able to see the code and understand the bug better?

[ogron]

You keep creating this fiction that this is some common occurrence: people in leagues being subbed out then trying to sub them back in.

How could it possibly be as common as you're implying? I can't think of 5 instances across TWL and TWDT in the last 10 years where something like that would have been desired.

This is the first time I ever encounter this particular situation, where someone needs to be subbed back in (no lag, best player on team) 1 minute into a game due to a storm.

99% of people are subbed out for 2 seasons:

1) You suck
2) You lag

Maybe in some rare case someones lag would abate in time and you'd want to re-sub them, but given the small amount of subs available... probably not.

Again, I don't know how many times I can state this, but the situation has never occurred, to my knowledge, since 2011 in TWDT. I don't remember it coming up in TWL, either.

You keep saying everyone says it's a common occurrence and everyone knows about it, yet two league ops in myself and Mythril across 6 of the last 8 seasons were unaware of the bug and the situation never arose with other caps.

[Efhat]

That's not really clear at all. You're missing a timeline in the explanation....

A) In d/j: (Player) was already subbed out before, and can't be subbed in again.
B) In b: (Player) is already in the game

You have two messages A and B. Message A is not a bug and it doesn't occur in base at all? So when does the bot deliver that message? Under what circumstances?

Message B occurs in base? And it only occurs when you are trying to a sub a player in? If so is this the message Thunder received when trying to sub JAMAL back in or did they receive message A?

You are stating updates to the bot to allow a subbed out player to re-enter the game were introduced in 2017? But were buggy and not implemented well?

So what happened before 2017? Was it that you could not re-enter a subbed out player at all?

I'm confused because we have two big narratives going here... and no clear explanation for why half the population thinks it's always been one way. I think something is lost in translation since you are able to see the code and understand the bug better?

In a base duel, you are subbed out.

captain tries to sub you back in after being subbed out, bot provides given messages.

ie: player who was subbed out cannot be subbed back into a basing game.

[Efhat]

You keep creating this fiction that this is some common occurrence: people in leagues being subbed out then trying to sub them back in.

How could it possibly be as common as you're implying? I can't think of 5 instances across TWL and TWDT in the last 10 years where something like that would have been desired.

This is the first time I ever encounter this particular situation, where someone needs to be subbed back in (no lag, best player on team) 1 minute into a game due to a storm.

99% of people are subbed out for 2 seasons:

1) You suck
2) You lag

Maybe in some rare case someones lag would abate in time and you'd want to re-sub them, but given the small amount of subs available... probably not.

Again, I don't know how many times I can state this, but the situation has never occurred, to my knowledge, since 2011 in TWDT. I don't remember it coming up in TWL, either.

You keep saying everyone says it's a common occurrence and everyone knows about it, yet two league ops in myself and Mythril across 6 of the last 8 seasons were unaware of the bug and the situation never arose with other caps.

Voth has been around longer than you and I combined and he said the same thing.

again, why would people complain on something that we are told is normal and have dealt with it for decades?

ask anyone who has played this game before season 14. You will get the same answer.
i was taught and told that you can never sub someone back in after being subbed out. So I never second guessed it because I thought it was the norm. Which I am sure everyone else did too.
again, as qan said, look, he updated the bot. why did he update the bot? Was a complaint made for him to update that TWLBOT? And if so, was there an appeal or replay game granted because of this conclusion?

from the top of my head I can remember
TWO instances where Stayon lagged out because of power issues and once we subbed him in LB we could not get him back in, costing us.

i can remember another instance necromotic lagged out and we subbed him with the same outcome.

no complaints were made because we were all under the understanding of what i have been mentioning.

one instance in an LB Championship round where we had to play Chief utsav over cape because he lagged out and we could not get him back in because of the same issue. We ended up winning that game, but that is not the point.


I do not see your point here. This was a common issue. And has always been. Complaints for this were not appealed because this was NORMAL.

[ogron]

Voth hasn't played leagues in 10 years.

2010-2019 is way more relevant than 2000-2009. Are we going to start talking about random damage, point races, and the removed block from FR?

Recent history is much more relevant than ancient history.

Also, you can't just rely purely on bad precedents and say "it was this way in the past, ergo ipso facto it should remain so now" as the crux of any argument. Like, imagine if every Supreme Court decision just abided by the Dred Scott decision.

Also, it's NOT EVEN PRECEDENT. It's a bug. We were always supposed to be able to sub back in. It's not like we all got together 15 years ago and said "let's write a rule forbidding re-subbing".

[Efhat]

I guess megaman89, Zizzo, Commodo, voth, thix, Stayon, Kess, Everest, and whoever else have put their input or have replied to me have lied to me and I have been delusional about this the last 18 years I have been playing

[Efhat]

Voth hasn't played leagues in 10 years.

2010-2019 is way more relevant than 2000-2009. Are we going to start talking about random damage, point races, and the removed block from FR?

Recent history is much more relevant than ancient history.

Also, you can't just rely purely on bad precedents and say "it was this way in the past, ergo ipso facto it should remain so now" as the crux of any argument. Like, imagine if every Supreme Court decision just abided by the Dred Scott decision.

Also, it's NOT EVEN PRECEDENT. It's a bug. We were always supposed to be able to sub back in. It's not like we all got together 15 years ago and said "let's write a rule forbidding re-subbing".

Ok. Let us have qan answer this.

Qan, when was the TWLBot updated on this issue.
lets get a date so we can see if we can find what brought a dev to fix this issue.
and if games were replayed because of it

[Falconeer]

In a base duel, you are subbed out.

captain tries to sub you back in after being subbed out, bot provides given messages.

ie: player who was subbed out cannot be subbed back into a basing game.

Efhat if that's true what is qan getting at with the bug? The message is written, no bug wrote that.. That message implies only one intention, that you can't sub in someone who was subbed out already.

[Rough]

Man, this whole sub/bot issue has been going on for the past 14 years to my knowledge and no one cared enough to fix it. It was known as "normal" to the community.

Quick reminder: Appeals are still happening in 2019, oh brother...lol

[qan]

Re-clarification post!

I made one mistake. I was checking all code commits on our platform for "sub" to determine when this was changed. However, it didn't show the full history, which I didn't realize, and couldn't see the full history until I used another method to check. (We're often talking about hundreds of changes per file.) I was left to conclude that the feature was introduced at some point in the last 1.5 years due to the commit message and incomplete history.

In reality, this feature was introduced to MatchBot about 8 years ago, in 2011. In July 2017, a bug was introduced that disabled it. (By the way, I'm not sure if there's any good reason for this flag to be disabled in any gametype, is there? I'll check with various league ops to see if it should be enabled across all leagues.)

To get even more confusing, though, this was NOT allowed in TWDTBot, which was used when we were still running TWDT using the TWDT site.

Also, I checked code for TWLBot as far back as our repository goes, which is 14 years. In 2005, TWLBot allowed it, and from what I can tell, always has.