Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[Efhat]

Man, this whole sub/bot issue has been going on for the past 14 years to my knowledge and no one cared enough to fix it. It was known as "normal" to the community.

Quick reminder: Appeals are still happening in 2019, oh brother...lol

Am I the only delusional one bro ?!
Christ. Thanks for proving my sanity.

[Falconeer]

Am I the only delusional one bro ?!
Christ. Thanks for proving my sanity.

Sounds like EA games. Your game has a bug...

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

https://www.wired.com/story/its-not-...its-a-feature/

[Rab]

On Legio chat only 1 person was aware of this bug, everyone else was surprised by it. But it's not some dick measuring contest about who knows the bots best or who has the best head to head record. It's about whether this is enough to have gifted the win to Terrorist. In my opinion Terrorist earnt their win and it should stand.

[Jones]

This all could have been avoided if base was best of 1 flag race to 3 minutes.

[With Ease]

Re-clarification post!

I made one mistake. I was checking all code commits on our platform for "sub" to determine when this was changed. However, it didn't show the full history, which I didn't realize, and couldn't see the full history until I used another method to check. (We're often talking about hundreds of changes per file.) I was left to conclude that the feature was introduced at some point in the last 1.5 years due to the commit message and incomplete history.

In reality, this feature was introduced to MatchBot about 8 years ago, in 2011. In July 2017, a bug was introduced that disabled it. (By the way, I'm not sure if there's any good reason for this flag to be disabled in any gametype, is there? I'll check with various league ops to see if it should be enabled across all leagues.)

To get even more confusing, though, this was NOT allowed in TWDTBot, which was used when we were still running TWDT using the TWDT site.

Also, I checked code for TWLBot as far back as our repository goes, which is 14 years. In 2005, TWLBot allowed it, and from what I can tell, always has.

Thank you for looking into it. Hardly the "it's always been this way!!!!!" narrative everyone is implying. Only a few people are usually allowed to even make subs in leagues like TWL. Voth adding his input when he's never added a line or subbed in TWL is ridiculous. I've SEEN people be subbed out and subbed back in during TWL games. All of you coming out of the woodwork to type bullshit despite not playing for years and having no idea what's going on need a reality check.

[Efhat]

On Legio chat only 1 person was aware of this bug, everyone else was surprised by it. But it's not some dick measuring contest about who knows the bots best or who has the best head to head record. It's about whether this is enough to have gifted the win to Terrorist. In my opinion Terrorist earnt their win and it should stand.

Quite frankly I am just trying to say that this subbing issue has been around for a while. Whether it was in TWD, TWL, or whatever else league was played in the past. Aside from that, I agree with the last two sentences you posted there. Terrorist was the better team the last two rounds.

I have never really been one to question rematches, or a challenge, but I can see where my team is coming from when they?re saying they do not want to do it again for obvious reasons.

[Voth]

Thank you for looking into it. Hardly the "it's always been this way!!!!!" narrative everyone is implying. Only a few people are usually allowed to even make subs in leagues like TWL. Voth adding his input when he's never added a line or subbed in TWL is ridiculous. I've SEEN people be subbed out and subbed back in during TWL games. All of you coming out of the woodwork to type bullshit despite not playing for years and having no idea what's going on need a reality check.

don't be butthurt - i never said anything about TWL. you're correct when you say i've not been a TWL captain. then again, as you know, i've spectated a TON of TWL games, as i am probably the top undeserved twl title winner in tw history. as far back as i can remember, in ?go base, in twdtb, and twbd, once someone is subbed out, they are out for that entire round.

either way, this is kind of a silly appeal. you panicked in the moment and made a strategic screw up - rare but possible for a captain as seasoned as you are. i literally don't think i've ever seen a cap in TWL sub a player out that lagged out immediately without giving them a chance to return - especially when it's their best player, and you're swapping them for someone substantially less good. most/all do what i said and switch them from a critical ship (terr, shark) into spider and then see how it plays out (if they return, when they return, etc)...within a reasonable time frame, of course.

i just don't think the precedent that an appeal such as this would set is a good idea. sometimes life isn't fair. sometimes you type a command and send it without thinking it through. bottom line is that it's no one's fault but your own. if your internet cuts out before the semi-finals and you can't be online to play, is that going to be appealed as well because your best lineup wasn't in? time to let it go.

[Undercut]

Thank you.

this has ALWAYS been the case since the beginning of time. League matches before have been played around this plenty of times.

Myself, and dozens of other players have had to sit in spectator in prior league games years back because of this issue obviously affecting the outcome of games.

this has affected the outcome of numerous games throughout the years and has been known.

i spoke to ease today and he said they updated TWLBOT on this issue. So I am sure that was attended to awhile back. I do nott ever remember seeing a forum post about it but maybe qan can verify like he said.

But that being said, were league games replayed after the changes? No. Was there an appeal on this issue? No. The issue was fixed and we moved on. Should be the same outcome here.

This wasnt a one time thing.

people did not appeal or complain about this before because we all assumed it was apart of the game, WHICH IT IS.

if we are going to re-write this, then we might as well forfeit every single medal anyone has earned because plenty of players have been subbed out throughout the history of this game for x reasons and could not be subbed back in.

You just admitted yourself that the issue was fixed on the TWLBots. So because it was fixed on one bot and not another that makes it okay to continue to happen in one league? This should have been fixed on every matchbot when it was fixed for TWL. This has clearly affected the outcome of a match and is simply "a bug" on a matchbot that needs to be fixed and a replay should occur. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that this has happened in TWL then should we go look at the TWL rules to base this appeal on?

6.01
If an unpredictable server crash, router failure, server lag, TWBot failure, or other event has a massive impact on a game in progress, the match will be cancelled and all current scores discarded. The game will then be replayed.

Oh hey a Twbot failure, exactly what happened to matchbot during this game because of this bug. Looks like it should be replayed then. It's not our fault that players back in the day didn't decide to appeal their games based on the bug that could have been easily fixed had anyone said absolutely fucking anything about it. You can not base your stance on this due to how things were run in the past or changes that need to be made to the game would never occur. If everything was just left the way that it was for the sake of consistency this game would never be improved and you would be stuck playing with the same bugs that occurred at the start of the game. It's absolutely fucking absurd that you think that shit is okay.

[Voth]

you know what, in many ways this thread is exhilarating.


i don't think i've seen emo tears cried this hard for a match in a long time.


myth might be right - the game really might be making a comeback.

[Majorcrisis2]

Its hilarious that some people here claim ease didnt wait long enough. Jamal lost his power way before the game started, there was time left to add (I didnt even see the +3 mins added while bot *arena'd it). And everyone here knows it takes some time before power is back. Like if ease played 5 mins (which it took like) before jamal was back, thunder was done for the round too imo. I think it's kinda stupid to appeal this for, terrorist won, so be it.

jamals lagging out didnt cost us the game. Me fking up cram 3x and ogron thinking he should type all the time did. And not having a backup shark as well. Like someone mentioned, thunder had no depth when it came to sharks.

[Voth]

You just admitted yourself that the issue was fixed on the TWLBots. So because it was fixed on one bot and not another that makes it okay to continue to happen in one league? This should have been fixed on every matchbot when it was fixed for TWL. This has clearly affected the outcome of a match and is simply "a bug" on a matchbot that needs to be fixed and a replay should occur. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that this has happened in TWL then should we go look at the TWL rules to base this appeal on?

6.01
If an unpredictable server crash, router failure, server lag, TWBot failure, or other event has a massive impact on a game in progress, the match will be cancelled and all current scores discarded. The game will then be replayed.

Oh hey a Twbot failure, exactly what happened to matchbot during this game because of this bug. Looks like it should be replayed then. It's not our fault that players back in the day didn't decide to appeal their games based on the bug that could have been easily fixed had anyone said absolutely fucking anything about it. You can not base your stance on this due to how things were run in the past or changes that need to be made to the game would never occur. If everything was just left the way that it was for the sake of consistency this game would never be improved and you would be stuck playing with the same bugs that occurred at the start of the game. It's absolutely fucking absurd that you think that shit is okay.

see this is the problem with rules like this...they need to come with definitions attached. if ease didn't flunk out of law school yet, he knows that all law sections come with definitions of terms at the beginning of them to address the inevitable gray areas in the english language and how it may apply to the law (rule).

what is a "failure" of the TWBot? is it when the bots crash entirely and the game no longer is being controlled/timed by the bot? as in, the host would have to start timing the game himself in order for the game to proceed? or is it when a bot "glitch" (which i'm not convinced it is...like i said, as long as i can remember, you KNEW if you subbed someone out, they were done for the round) forces a team to sub out a strong player for a weak player?

also, what is a "massive impact on a game" defined as? i'd agree that playing 8v7 would be a massive impact, such as if the bot malfunctioned and allowed no sub at all. is losing a player and having to resort to a sub on your bench a "massive impact"? or is that part of twdt (and every other league)...sometimes you just don't have your top lineup in...for any variety of reasons. is that a reason to replay a game and take a win away from the other team?

also, i mean, do the TWL rules have any bearing on this appeal in twdt? questions... questions...more than we have answers.

[Efhat]

You just admitted yourself that the issue was fixed on the TWLBots. So because it was fixed on one bot and not another that makes it okay to continue to happen in one league? This should have been fixed on every matchbot when it was fixed for TWL. This has clearly affected the outcome of a match and is simply "a bug" on a matchbot that needs to be fixed and a replay should occur. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that this has happened in TWL then should we go look at the TWL rules to base this appeal on?

6.01
If an unpredictable server crash, router failure, server lag, TWBot failure, or other event has a massive impact on a game in progress, the match will be cancelled and all current scores discarded. The game will then be replayed.

Oh hey a Twbot failure, exactly what happened to matchbot during this game because of this bug. Looks like it should be replayed then. It's not our fault that players back in the day didn't decide to appeal their games based on the bug that could have been easily fixed had anyone said absolutely fucking anything about it. You can not base your stance on this due to how things were run in the past or changes that need to be made to the game would never occur. If everything was just left the way that it was for the sake of consistency this game would never be improved and you would be stuck playing with the same bugs that occurred at the start of the game. It's absolutely fucking absurd that you think that shit is okay.

So if I lagout of a basing game and it takes me an extended amount of time to re log into a basing arena because of the volume of people and I cannot rejoin the game for a minute and we lose by a minute I am allowed to appeal that and it will get granted?

Get the fuck out of here. Game should not be replayed. That?s a server connection issue though, is it not? Game should be cancelled and replayed.

what type of fucking snowflake environment are we creating here?

seriously?



Your team lost second round without JAMAL
Your team lost third round with JAMAL.
Tough shit. Someone should have stepped up and sharked. JAMAL was in shark. The man was not even in spider in any of the three games.
my team would have to win an extra game compared to yours in the end.

no, it is not absurd. LA Rams should have been penalized for a pass interference on the Saints but guess what? IT DID NOT HAPPEN. AND THE GAME WAS NOT REPLAYED.

my entire argument was not based on that, all I have said was that I found it hard to believe that people that have played this game for over ten years have never been aware of this subbing issue. As it has been around for a very long time.

in my personal opinion aside from this subbing issue. I stomped you and your spiders for three rounds. I can care less what is the outcome of this. I am defending a team that stayed up till 5-6 AM in a round three game and won against the best line your team had to offer and now they have to replay a game because none of you could step up and shark?

Man lol. Joke

but who am I to say anything.

[zidane]

People talking as if this kind of thing is common. Anyone with basing IQ at all knows rd 2 was a sham and the result was dictated by a bug, rd 2 also probably had a huge effect on rd 3 morale too but no point getting into things that can't be proven.

Not sure why terror crying so hard if they can't beat thunders actual lineup that was ONLINE but couldn't be added then legio will spank them silly anyway. Poor sportsmanship in here, the only argument to be had is whether the ops say sub backs should never happen in twdtb, that's the only possible way to deny this. Everyone and their mom knows rd 2 was a sham but it's fun to pile on the side who appeals in 2019

[Undercut]

So if I lagout of a basing game and it takes me an extended amount of time to re log into a basing arena because of the volume of people and I cannot rejoin the game for a minute and we lose by a minute I am allowed to appeal that and it will get granted?

If you felt that had a massive impact on the game then yes you are allowed to appeal it.

Your team lost second round without JAMAL
Your team lost third round with JAMAL.
Tough shit. Someone should have stepped up and sharked. JAMAL was in shark. The man was not even in spider in any of the three games.
my team would have to win an extra game compared to yours in the end.

We also won the first round with JAMAL in. You just gonna pretend that one didn't happen? Also you know with the game having to be replayed after an appeal you technically didn't really win it, so you would have only actually won one game, just like we did.

no, it is not absurd. LA Rams should have been penalized for a pass interference on the Saints but guess what? IT DID NOT HAPPEN. AND THE GAME WAS NOT REPLAYED.

This is honestly apples to oranges here crip. That was one play in a game that had an impact on one scoring drive, had the saints been up by 37 the play wouldn't have mattered whatsoever. Also you seem to be forgetting that Goodell technically had the right to force them to replay he just chose not to. The bug that happened with matchbot happened at the beginning of the game and didn't allow JAMAL to play at all. This would have been more like Drew Brees got subbed out at the beginning of the game and had to sit the entire thing out because the refs fucked up.

[Efhat]

If you felt that had a massive impact on the game then yes you are allowed to appeal it.



We also won the first round with JAMAL in. You just gonna pretend that one didn't happen? Also you know with the game having to be replayed after an appeal you technically didn't really win it, so you would have only actually won one game, just like we did.



This is honestly apples to oranges here crip. That was one play in a game that had an impact on one scoring drive, had the saints been up by 37 the play wouldn't have mattered whatsoever. Also you seem to be forgetting that Goodell technically had the right to force them to replay he just chose not to. The bug that happened with matchbot happened at the beginning of the game and didn't allow JAMAL to play at all. This would have been more like Drew Brees got subbed out at the beginning of the game and had to sit the entire thing out because the refs fucked up.

Never said that, obviously you won the first round. Or we would not have played three games. Everyone is out here spitting out how you guys are undefeated with your best line in, blah blah blah. Your best line was in round 3. And could not finish. You can beat a team an endless amount of times in a regular season match. Playoffs are different.

As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that appeal was made in the past and it was denied.

That is the point I am trying to make. Are we going to create an environment where any issue with one person will effect the outcome of an entire game or series?

hold on. What if this was not JAMAL that lagged out.

what if it was your 6* or 7* or 8* ? You would appeal would you not? So now on what grounds or volume does a 6* carry in the outcome of a game if we are following those rules? It is across the board is it not?
So now an irrelevant player who did not do nothing in an entire basing match, would get his appeal granted just because he could not get subbed back in the game because of this rule?
Shit happens.