TWDT vs TWL

[ogron]

People are sick of playing 3 pure draft leagues in a row with randos, but want TWL in the fall (or not at all.)

There’s a clear product segmentation gap that we need to fill between TWDT and TWL.

TSL was a failure, but Basing Cup has been pretty good. We can build on that and incorporate ‘TWL reform’ ideas that allow gamers to play with who they want under the Cup umbrella, with either a hybrid league or star cap without a draft.

Great ideas like opt-out instead of opt-in and all the playoffs on 1 day allow low commitment levels and produce 99% show rates to finals and semis. Star cap and hybrid rosters where you start with a core are also good. We have a lot of options.

I really see Cup becoming the 3rd league. 2 TWDTs and 1 TWL leaves a hole in the schedule each year. Cup allows us to run drafts without a star cap, TWL style with a star cap, or a hybrid league where you start with a core and draft the rest. Star Cap TWDT is the games main league. We need 2 other leagues: TWL and something else.

[Zeebu]

People are sick of playing 3 pure draft leagues in a row with randos, but want TWL in the fall (or not at all.)

There’s a clear product segmentation gap that we need to fill between TWDT and TWL.

TSL was a failure, but Basing Cup has been pretty good. We can build on that and incorporate ‘TWL reform’ ideas that allow gamers to play with who they want under the Cup umbrella, with either a hybrid league or star cap without a draft.

Great ideas like opt-out instead of opt-in and all the playoffs on 1 day allow low commitment levels and produce 99% show rates to finals and semis. Star cap and hybrid rosters where you start with a core are also good. We have a lot of options.

I really see Cup becoming the 3rd league. 2 TWDTs and 1 TWL leaves a hole in the schedule each year. Cup allows us to run drafts without a star cap, TWL style with a star cap, or a hybrid league where you start with a core and draft the rest. Star Cap TWDT is the games main league. We need 2 other leagues: TWL and something else.

warning, not a fully formed idea incoming:

what about a management league? a captain's league if you will. Give a whole lot of people the ability to captain some games in each league. Basically, have times set out for everyone to show up and designated caps can pick the teams available that particular game slot. Tough to explain on the fly, but here we go straight to an example starting with WBs.

1. choose the caps for the upcoming games
2. divvy up arenas with 12 players each arena - 2 caps choose among the 10 players available and choose 5 each for a team of 6 including themselves. that way you can either play yourself or save yourself/whoever for a sub slot. The bot should choose 12 players to form 2 relatively equal squads per TSL/TWDT stats. The caps need to pick among those players and try get graded on how well each team does.
3. basically this is close to TSL but with the added wrinkle of grading the caps to choose between the small pool provided.

For base it seems very difficult, but might add a fun aspect to the pretty bad TSL.

Basing cup so far im just jaded. I'm only borderline startable and on top of that I was on a 0 win cup team last season. Spicing up basing cup would be fun too. Is there a way to incentivize learning new ships?

i dunno

[viop11]

if u want to vs a short twl so top playirs cud vs top playirs w/o scrubmin interferink, maybe u cud run twl as normal on sunday, and have on saturday a 4 team twdt for players rated 8* n below, possibly captained by four 10* playirs to organize the team. the 2 seasins cud go the same length. the people who r vsink the 8* n below twdt cud also vs twl if they have a team for it.

i dunno if this would work for base but it might, and it could definitely wirk for javs/wb

as sum1 who luvs twl becuz ripitish cud get the ch1nce to take the p1tch, i dun see how ppl wudnt b excited for unlimitid twdt if wirih is puttink up so much fundink 2 make it gr8

[Exalt]

warning, not a fully formed idea incoming:

what about a management league? a captain's league if you will. Give a whole lot of people the ability to captain some games in each league. Basically, have times set out for everyone to show up and designated caps can pick the teams available that particular game slot. Tough to explain on the fly, but here we go straight to an example starting with WBs.

1. choose the caps for the upcoming games
2. divvy up arenas with 12 players each arena - 2 caps choose among the 10 players available and choose 5 each for a team of 6 including themselves. that way you can either play yourself or save yourself/whoever for a sub slot. The bot should choose 12 players to form 2 relatively equal squads per TSL/TWDT stats. The caps need to pick among those players and try get graded on how well each team does.
3. basically this is close to TSL but with the added wrinkle of grading the caps to choose between the small pool provided.

For base it seems very difficult, but might add a fun aspect to the pretty bad TSL.

Basing cup so far im just jaded. I'm only borderline startable and on top of that I was on a 0 win cup team last season. Spicing up basing cup would be fun too. Is there a way to incentivize learning new ships?

i dunno

So.. Wbduel/Javduel/Baseduel but with pre-selected captains?

I mean I don't actually mind the idea, but that's what it basically sounds like.

[Rab]

Both "twl with star cap" and "captains league" sound better than twl to me, assuming the schedule is eu-friendly. Basically anything that provides balanced basing at eu-friendly hours gets my vote.

[Dwopple]

For whenever TWL happens, I still think the most difficult part is determining teams who qualify. I've thought about the possibility of having a new TWD !ch command which only lets teams add from their TWD roster, or potentially a separate TWL roster, though I have no idea how much dev time that would take. I cannot think of another objective way of having teams qualify.

Anyone have any thoughts on qualifications?

[Rab]

Minimum star cap? Suspected scrub teams playoff weekend?

[Vehicle]

Should be a TWD qualifier with the amount of squads determined by interest. Like I said above, you could run a playoffs-only fast league as a test of the idea since a lot has changed since the last time we used TWD to get into TWL. You could alternatively do a point threshold, where you say you have to have at least 1200 points in a division to qualify.

My only other idea is to require a TWD K : D above 1 to get on a TWL roster.

I really don't like the idea of bringing stars into TWL in any way shape or form. It's putting the cart before the horse and creates a walled garden that only some players have access to. Every TWL season, including last, there are low-starred players that have breakouts in TWL because they've just never had the opportunity to play on a top squad in top competition. Having a star cap basically incentivizes the arms race that TWL already is.

[HellzNo!]

For whenever TWL happens, I still think the most difficult part is determining teams who qualify. I've thought about the possibility of having a new TWD !ch command which only lets teams add from their TWD roster, or potentially a separate TWL roster, though I have no idea how much dev time that would take. I cannot think of another objective way of having teams qualify.

Anyone have any thoughts on qualifications?

Just an idea, but if TWL is qualifying 8 teams, have a minimum star cap requirement for the starting lineups to determine the top 6 "elite" squads, and have a play-in tournament on a weekend for the last two spots using TWD with no borrows.

ie. you would have to be able to field a minimum 45* starting lineup in TWLD/TWLJ and *75 for TWLB based last seasons TWDT ratings(or whatever minimum star rating makes sense). The star requirement would just be used for qualification and discarded once the season starts. Use this to determine the top 4-6 squads, and then the leftover spots would get filled by the play-in tournament.

I dunno just spitballing here..

[Zeebu]

just put a date out there and invite X squads on that date. we've basically got a fixed number of people, they can only be combined in so many shapes. Unless youre planning on having TWL be like 4 squads, just invite whatever squads want to play and figure up a regular season off of that number. only like 4 squads are going to be worth anything in playoffs anyway. let the TWL regular season be the real qualification

[viop11]

should allow any squidrin who cud field a startink lineup w/ 8* or above playirs in it into twl automatically if they want to be in, and then if theres a terribil team filled w/ 0 talent warbirts like accuracy for example that wants to play twld, they should be allowed to make their case to the twl ops

for example say i am tj hiziki and racka is twl op "hey racka, i kniw we are a basing squidrin and don't have any good wirbirts and most of us cant vs 30 pushups irl, but we still would like the chance to compete in twld. we promise to do our best and try to compete and not just fk around/give up after we get pounded and stuffed into lockir the first few weeks. I hope u give us ch1nce to show we can at least compete and we will do our best 2 improve as a team throughout the season and would gr8ly appreci8 the ch1nce to take the p1tch vs superior athletes. If you don't want to give us a sh1t becuz u think we r a waste of time, i don't blame u and fully understand/accept your dicision, ty mastir"

[Tiny]

Will do whatever. If voting, TWDT.

[Banks]

”most of us cant vs 30 pushups irl"

I’d squish you like a bug irl you disgusting smelly ginger.

[Bluff]

I would assume that TWDT drives the most participation. We've all come to terms that we basically have the same player base till the end of (SS) time. That being said, TWDT is great for the entire player base, but TWL feeds the competitive aspect. I vote TWL simply because we just had TWDT. makes sense to stagger it in favor of TWDT (DT, DT, TWL, DT, DT, etc.).

[RageRitual]

Sorry for the wall of text, many much caffeine in system! Just some random opinions here after reading through all the posts.

TWL:

If we do DT next we should schedule TWL to follow. We should do TWL once a year at least, and probably not change anything major with it. Strict roster caps, with basing being a separate roster. Get rid of the bye's. Short season 1-2 matches per team depending on team count. 4 teams make playoffs. Don't use TWD to qualify that is really silly with the borrow system. If we have too many teams sign up we could simply have a preseason week to make sure bots do things right and have the weaker teams play off against each other to qualify for TWL.

if u want to vs a short twl so top playirs cud vs top playirs w/o scrubmin interferink, maybe u cud run twl as normal on sunday, and have on saturday a 4 team twdt for players rated 8* n below, possibly captained by four 10* playirs to organize the team. the 2 seasins cud go the same length. the people who r vsink the 8* n below twdt cud also vs twl if they have a team for it.

I really like this idea. We have been toying with the idea for a (for lack of a better name) amateur league for awhile, this could be one way we try it out. It would also allow different people, lower starred people to captain since every season it's mostly the same people capping, give other people a chance. This would also give any teams that might not qualify for TWL or players that not want to play TWL something else to do.

TSL:

This past TSL was the first time I tried it since this was a league created while I quit the game for some 8 or so years. TSL was awful. Every single match was horribly balanced a landslide in either direction. The potential is there for a great league but some work clearly needs to be done on the formulas or something for it to be more balanced.

CUPS:

Why not run Warbird Cup, Jav Cup, and Basing Cup with hybrid roster rules next, then? We’ve been talking about starting with a core of 3-4 people then drafting the rest for years.

Cups in May, TWL in September, TWDT in November, then another TWDT in February. (Alternatively, you could also do TWDT in September and TWL in November.)

The reality is hybrid TWL is never going to happen (and shouldn’t). Ditto TWDT. One is a pure premier league, the other is a pure draft, and they have a clear function and associated prestige.

Cup is the perfect place to let friends and TWL teammates start together, then draft the rest of the team, making it a mix between TWL and TWDT. The people who really want to play together can, and those who want 8 teams who can win instead of 4-5 contenders and 3-4 non-contenders get their wish, too. It’s win-win.

It would be something fresh, new, and implementing an idea many of us have been pushing for years.

Cups are probably the best place to try out ideas we as a community come up with since TWL and DT are pretty established in how they are run. From a mid-teir basing perspective these matches are usually better than DT since DT has a lot of really bad players in it. Usually every team ends up being a threat (on paper at least, if they show is a different story) with great player after great player on it without stacking too hard like TWL. Allowing 3 people to group together before drafting here might be a great compromise between DT and TWL. Also +1 for the schedule order here.

I originally voted for DT, but thinking about it, it would probably be better for the zone to have some cups or TWL next.