Iraqis fucking love us

[THE ENFORCER]

I GET IT NOW! YOU WERE APPRECIATING THEIR SIDE'S ARGUMENTS!!

Doesnt mean i still think having that view point is deterimental. Im just saying i fully understand why someone would think like that but i also think that if everyone had those viewpoints in the longrun will end in tragedy which i want to prevent. The discussion also got a little heated due to the fact that people constantly insulting me which is what you are doing now Azhran.

[TajaUk]

Everyone understands your logic, that the problem. Its flawed.

You keep making out everyone else is stupid.

[Azhran]

The discussion also got a little heated due to the fact that people constantly insulting me which is what you are doing now Azhran.

So calling people fools isn't insulting?

[Liquid Blue]

I see, he can dish it out but he can't take it.

[Bob (SRB)]

This is just out of curoisty and you make a reasonable argument here so i will respond, you attack me for supporting active roles in stopping terrorism and when i critcize you for saying that we should take a passive standpoint you deny it so if you dont want to take an active role (because you think it will cause a spiral) nor dont want to take a passive role what is your point of view? active or passive choose one please. When i say we must take an active role we should increase security for US and attack the heart of terrorism war will be needed, regime changes will be needed but its effective. If you dont want war or regime changes how do you propose to stop terrorism?


The reason why terrorist attack USA and not Canada is because USA is the richest nation which terrorist resent and also USA is the #1 superpower of the free world, USA represents democracy for all democractic nations USA is the symbol for democracy and terrorist see that on its own as a threat. If you say USA should take a passive role and not do anything like Canada do you think terrorist will stop attacking?

please answer these questions directly im very curious for your response and your response only.

Edit:wait a minute i think ive figured this out, you feel that there is only grounds to invade a country if they pose a direct terrorist threat to USA right? however because its impossible to prove what a person will do in the future you can only base it upon the present or maybe even the past so thats why you approve of attacking afghastan because they were responsible for 9/11 so if Iraqis with the approval of Saddam attacked USA killing another 3000 citizens then you would only approve of invading Iraq am i right here?

Ah thank you enforcer, you have actually made a pretty decent post here that I can make a good argument against.

Well first off, I don't think it matters now what role the US has taken. As i have said before, they have already angered terrorists enough and I believe they will be bombed. Also, recent tapes made By Bin Laden have him telling America to leave Iraq alone or they will regret it. I still believe that Bin Laden is a very real threat, and he still could do some damage. Don't get me wrong I think Bin Laden is the scum of the earth, but what the US has done has provoked him further. Not because they invaded a middle eastern country, more because of the Muslim people who have been killed. And I'm pretty sure he's out for revenge. What I would like to see is not America attacking the country itself, but only attacking the terrorists inside the country. Obviously to get rid of terrorism is NOT the reason why America invaded Iraq. To use that as grounds for invading a country is absurd. Bush has only linked this whole terrorism in Iraq thing with 9/11 to get stronger support from the people (and maybe win the next election too!). Because if Bush invaded Iraq for completely no reason, even the American people would get a little suspicious. But as soon as he says "i'm going to invade Iraq and get rid of those terrorists there, that way no more 9/11's will happen!" then suddenly the people who are still angry and looking for revenge for 9/11 suddenly see an oppurtunity! They are too quick to stop and think that killing terrorists might not really have been Bush's actual reason behind invading. And they don't realize how flawed this plan actually is. Invading a mainly muslim country and killing muslim people is only going to anger extremists. You also say people hate America because it is so powerful. Wouldn't you think crushing a basically defenseless country is kind of like flaunting it's own power a bit? Well that's what the terrorists will think. Terrorism is not coming from the Iraqi people, it is coming from the muslim religion, so invading Iraq does nothing to stop terrorism, it just kills Iraqi people. Most Americans haven't realized that yet and figured out the real reasons for invasion (mostly the oil).

Now this is the plain truth, it may not be politically correct, but I have to say it to get my point across. IF Bush really wanted to stop terrorism against America, then he'd have to destroy the Muslim religion as a whole. And no, not even America is powerful enough to do that. So what I'm saying is there is NO way to stop terrorism. Muslim extremists are the most dangerous people in the world. My father used to go on business trips to places like Egypt and other muslim countries. He knows first hand how crazy some of these people can be. Terrorists would shoot at his van (they even killed a muslim guard trying to shoot him) solely because there was a "white person" in it. Even though my dad is Canadian, they would kill their own people just to get to a white person. I am not condemning the religion as a whole, for there are many kind, honest people who practice it. But there are also many extremists who take the religion too seriously, and boom! You have yourself a terrorist. This basically only happens in the Middle-Eastern countries though. So if you want terrorists stopped, all you can do now is target the actual terrorists and hunt them down themselves. Maybe target a whole terrorist organization (al-queda) and bring it down as a whole. Yes more terrorists will be born, but nobody can stop it. Certainly taking over a Country that has been known to have terrorists will do completely nothing to stop it. Enforcer you seem to think there is a way to stop terrorism. And I'm telling you there is none. Well, maybe Bush can find a way to abolish all religions (yeah, right), then I'll guarantee you most terrorism will cease to exist. So the only logical thing that can be done right now is just hunt down the actual terrorists. America changing it's ways probably wouldn't do much to stop it either, these terrorists are crazy and will target the US nomatter what. Despite what you think, terrorists do have other reasons for attacking the US. Not just because it is "so powerful" and it's a "symbol of democracy."

I don't want to go into their reasons now, this post is already too long. Hope that cleared stuff up.

[bloodzombie]

I can't even read what the enforcer says anymore, if you don't agree with him (and I hope not many do), the best and least frustrating thing is just to ignore him.

He lives in some fantasy world where the US can go around planting democracy seeds and they'll bloom into thriving utopias.

Iraq was no threat to us, and they were nowhere near creating nuclear weapons or anything of the sort. So the suggestion that invasion is a good idea because of the possible future threat is ludicrous. We have no proof that they could ever be a threat to our country. There's no link between iraq and bin laden or al queda. There's no link between iraq and 9/11.

Why the fuck do we care what they charge for their oil? that's their fucking business, not ours. We're not police, we're in charge of what happens in our own country. we're also a part of the world community as a member of the united nations. We basically told the UN to fuck off, and now we're going back to them saying "look, this Iraq situation is all fucked up, no government that we put in place could possibly have any credibility, we need your help".

Iraq is a giant clusterfuck right now and we have no exit strategy. The iraqis don't trust us, so why would they trust a government that we appoint?

[Displaced]

interesting reading

ill just address points as i remember them (if they are incorrect so sue me.)

1) stopping terrorism

Bob, ive gotta disagree harshly with you there, the muslim religion is a very peaceful one, and as such is not a cause of terrorism, extremists can however exploit their religion by brainwashing young, and uneducated muslims into believeing that they are in the middle of a jihad (technically they are palestine-israel thing, but ill address that later), and use that as incentive to attack those responsible for it (Israel-Usa).

If you really want to stop terrorism, pull out of the ME completely, every single soldier,ship,plane,rifle,bullet, etc etc, just get up and leave the region. The presence of "Infidels" in the Holy Land (Saudi) is a large reason for the terrorism (as can be seen again by the killing of Americans in Yanbu), another is that many arabs feel that American soldiers in the ME, are there to try and "control" or "police" their way of life, and thus are resented for it.

America should also completely stop supporting Israel, no more funding, weapons, etc, however its a very big business, and will never stop.

2) Iraq

Enforcer, i have no idea where you conjured up the idea that i supported Saddam, i dont, nor do i condone what he did to the kurds, or his own people. However invading Iraq was never about Saddam or Terrorism, it was about oil, and getting another foothole in the ME. If they wanted Saddam they coulda got him in the first Gulf War, or they couldve captured him and left this time round.

IIRC you also stated something about how Iraq is gonna be better now as a Democracy, all i see is the basic regime being reinstated. Saddams Fedayiin Commanders are being re-instated as heads of the Iraqi Army and Police. (Smart move there...)

Also Saddam may not have had "links" with Bin Laden, or Al Qaeda, however countries in the region such as Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq etc do fund these extremists groups. However attacking Iraq does nothing to decrease terrorism. Coincidentally it will bolster terrorism, more people will wish to join extremists groups and have their revenge vs America.

3) USA

Again IIRC someone mentioned (probably Enforcer) that Terrorists hate america due to its Wealth and Power. Thats absurd, nearly every country in the ME has sizeable oil reserves, as well as other raw materials such as gold...
Countries which "harbour" terrorists, such as Saudi are extremely wealthy, just because Bin Laden trained terrorists in a poor country like Afghanistan doesnt mean they are envious of Americas Money.

The power point is more valid, however it is not Americas power they are against, but rather their use of said power. if they used all of thier crap to police their own country and not run around hunting oil, and supporting Israel there would not be anywhere near as much terrorism.

conclusion

Take that budget being spent on arms and the armed forces and invest it into education and welfare. Pull all troops out of countries where they do not belong.

that would go a long way.

edit, mixed up israel and terrorism in one paragraph

[Mattey]

I make the best threads.

[THE ENFORCER]

Bob (SRB) there IS a way to stop terrorism this is through US ensuring a country has a stable government and then providing aid to it, US cant provide aid to these countries now because there isnt a stable government they wont use it for the interest of thier people once a stable government like democracy is placed and once US provides aids living standards will increase for the country and there will be no reason to attack US. Terrorist wont be in a hurry to kill themselves if they have $1 million in thier bank account- its all about money if US can ensure increasing living standards and make these countries rich terrorism will cease to exist and we will live properous and in harmony.

[THE ENFORCER]

undefined

interesting reading
Iraq

Enforcer, i have no idea where you conjured up the idea that i supported Saddam, i dont, nor do i condone what he did to the kurds, or his own people. However invading Iraq was never about Saddam or Terrorism, it was about oil, and getting another foothole in the ME. If they wanted Saddam they coulda got him in the first Gulf War, or they couldve captured him and left this time round.

Iraq is about Saddam, is about oil and is about terrorism they are three things combined. If you oppose invasion then that means you would still want Saddam in power it is that simple you cant cherry pick here you cant say well i dont want invasion but nor do i want Saddam in power its one or the other.

IIRC you also stated something about how Iraq is gonna be better now as a Democracy, all i see is the basic regime being reinstated. Saddams Fedayiin Commanders are being re-instated as heads of the Iraqi Army and Police. (Smart move there...)

On june 30ths there will be a provisional govt which will be run by iraqis for Iraqis how is that similar to Saddam. With the general appointed yes that is a smart move because Iraqis only respond to fellow Iraqis having a general who knows the land and the people extremely well is an assest however this guy is on a tigh leesh so its not like he can do much except what US wants nothing wrong with this.


Also Saddam may not have had "links" with Bin Laden, or Al Qaeda, however countries in the region such as Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq etc do fund these extremists groups. However attacking Iraq does nothing to decrease terrorism. Coincidentally it will bolster terrorism, more people will wish to join extremists groups and have their revenge vs America.

Proving that a ME country has been successfully converted to democracy and civillians living standards have increased dramatically due to this will show these other ME countries that terrrorism isnt the only way out there is a more peaceful solution to their problems. If Iraq is successful it is quite possible that citizens in other ME countries will rise up and demand democracy and ask for US help-which is good as this will end terrorism.

3) USA

Again IIRC someone mentioned (probably Enforcer) that Terrorists hate america due to its Wealth and Power. Thats absurd, nearly every country in the ME has sizeable oil reserves, as well as other raw materials such as gold...
Countries which "harbour" terrorists, such as Saudi are extremely wealthy, just because Bin Laden trained terrorists in a poor country like Afghanistan doesnt mean they are envious of Americas Money.

Do you really think that the riches trickle down to the peasants of the country no they dont they stay at the top! Living standards for the lower classes are extremely low.

The power point is more valid, however it is not Americas power they are against, but rather their use of said power. if they used all of thier crap to police their own country and not run around hunting oil, and supporting Israel there would not be anywhere near as much terrorism.

Dont you understand? through globalisation, increases in technology etc one country has an impact on another country if US left everything alone then when they see countries crumble before thier eyes it hurts US it hurts US because they export less, less foregin investments and will send US into a recession constantly. US must help out other countries and raise living standards for these countries to help themselves.

Take that budget being spent on arms and the armed forces and invest it into education and welfare. Pull all troops out of countries where they do not belong.

that would go a long way.

edit, mixed up israel and terrorism in one paragraph

Im all for supporting education and welfare but what you said will only delay the problem when your (great) grandchildren are alive they will have to face an even worse problem (all countries on the brink of bankruptcy, as a result war will be rampent and many people will die through war and starvation- pretty much be the end of the world) lets try and solve the problem now before it gets unsolvable!

[Selex]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain614063.shtml

Since im in a Military Family.. I heard alot about this subject.
The troops that commited the abuse were kicked from the Military, removed from Iraq. Theyre entire careers are over. I have heard that the Commander of the troops told them its "Ok" to abuse them. They videotaped and took pictures of it and it wasnt meant to be released. The military isnt going crazy... That infantry group was, as far as I know, doing it under the supervision of their Commanding Officer. It could possibly be Payback for what some of the Iraqi POWs have done to the U.S. and the Iraqi Citizens.


If you want to know more or whatever, PM me.

[Troll King]

I wonder how many people here (Canadians particularly) remember the Somalia Affair and the torture and murder of a Somalian caught by Canadian peacekeepers in 1992. The situations aren't exactly the same, but there are enough parallels that a look at the report of the Somalia Commission of Inquiry would be very useful.

Go here: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-723-...somalia/clip3#
for an archival news report of the incident with links to the Inquiry and the fallout.

[lunch3]

Displaced, the US already pulled its forces out of Saudi Arabia like a year ago, because the Saudi government asked us to. Terrorists cannot use that arguement anymore to bolster their cause.

[Bob (SRB)]

Displaced I do agree with you, the muslim religion is supposed to be a peaceful one. Almost any religion is meant to be peaceful. But, just like in any religion, it can be taken too far. If you actually read real passages from the Quran there are many iffy statements in there. There are actually parts that basically translate into "all infidels not of the muslim religion do not matter." There are even parts that are so extreme to say "you may kill your own wife if she has cheated on you." I don't see a problem with religion itself, but let's face it, humans are just to dumb to handle religion. Religion was meant to be a good thing, but in the end it has caused the world much harm. Is it the religion's fault? No, it is the idiots who practice it. So when I was blaming a lot of terrorism on the muslim religion, I didn't really mean the religion, I meant some of the extremists who practice it. The plain truth is, muslim religion has a lot of extremists, much more than any other influential religion out there. It is not the people's fault, it is more the way these people have been raised and brought up. Many extremist tell their kids that it is alright to lie to the infidel. Actually, in egypt there is a monument declaring the egyptians completely vicotorious in a war they had with Israel many years back. But the fact of the matter is, the Israelis crushed them in that war. So I don't really blame some of these muslim people that have been taught so strictly by their religion. I don't mean to single the muslim religion out, because any religion can be like this. With christian extremists you get people like Fred Phelps, an insane pastor who holds anti-gay rallies all over north america. He even protested at mr. Rogers funeral because he thinks Mr. Rogers was too accepting of gays, now that is just sick. And you get organizations like the IRA in Ireland. So I'm certainly not just anti-muslim, I'm anti organized religion as a whole.

Well back on topic, enforcer you are actually wrong about that whole money issue. Most extremists hold their religion and the hatred of other religions in much higher regard than money. Many of these suicide bombers have the impression that "mortal things do not matter, and when I blow myself and the infidel up, I will just be in Heaven with god faster." So money will do nothing to stop a true religious terrorist.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with those statements. If I have, I could try to restate them and be more politically correct.

[THE ENFORCER]

Well back on topic, enforcer you are actually wrong about that whole money issue. Most extremists hold their religion and the hatred of other religions in much higher regard than money. Many of these suicide bombers have the impression that "mortal things do not matter, and when I blow myself and the infidel up, I will just be in Heaven with god faster." So money will do nothing to stop a true religious terrorist.

Those extremist you talk about well you cant do anything to change thier mind, but when it comes to recruiting people to join thier extremitism then money is an issue many Hamas sucide bombers kill themselves because they get paid to do it (doing for thier family) its also alot harder to go and kill youself when you are living a prosperous life would you kill youself when you are in a mansion living the good life even if your religon says you will go to heaven well you are virtually in heaven if you are prosperous so why kill youself to get the same thing. Generally the people that phsycially go out and do the terrorist acts do it for money the people who co-ordinate, preach and organise the attacks do it for religon-not much you can do to these people except to ensure that citizens get the full picture which is where democracy comes in, every citizens is treated equally and can have free exchange of ideas under democracy so someone opposed to extremitism can say so without being afraid.